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Invisiblefreespeech
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Dwarf trees and mycorrhizal mushrooms?
    #13910180 - 02/05/11 12:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

We picked up a dwarf Alberta spruce tree to use as our Christmas tree this last holiday. I was looking at it and started wondering if anyone had tried to use dwarf trees to create small beds of mycorrhizal fungi, possibly even indoors.

I did a quick search and came up empty. I'd welcome any information and opinions about this idea. 2-4 foot tall potted dwarf trees were fairly inexpensive ($15-35) this last Christmas.

In what ways does the fungal compatibility of a dwarf tree differ from that of a normal tree, if at all?


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OfflineNSF
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Re: Dwarf trees and mycorrhizal mushrooms? [Re: freespeech]
    #13911834 - 02/05/11 06:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I think the hard part is ensuring that the mycorrhizal fungi that you are hoping to grow is the first and only fungi present.  It's a great idea though.

http://www.artofbonsai.org/feature_articles/mushroom.php


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Offlinetexbotany
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Re: Dwarf trees and mycorrhizal mushrooms? [Re: NSF]
    #13911982 - 02/05/11 07:15 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

While the trees are still in pots, you could flush the roots with anti-fungals and then inoculate them before planting them in the ground. :shrug:


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OfflineDeathbliss
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Re: Dwarf trees and mycorrhizal mushrooms? [Re: texbotany]
    #13933178 - 02/09/11 11:45 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I was wondering how this would work with the Fly Amantis (sorry if I spelled that wrong). I found a bonsai - can't find the link now - that did not require full sun. This seemed to be the problem with most of the bonsai - that they required full sun and of course that would not be the ideal condition to grow a shroom like the Fly Amantis in.

So to do this I think you need to study how to care for a bonsai tree first, then you need to find one that can grow indoors or in full or partial shade. You also need one that is well developed - the older the better. As I recall the Fly Amantis, and I would assume other shrooms that grow in the same way, will only grow on older trees. Then you can inject the spores from your syringe into the soil near the roots. THEN you have to wait a LONG time for anything to show up - a year or more if I recall. BUT you should never have to inject new spores once the shroom you are growing has taken root, at least from what I read of the Fly Amantis that seems to be the case.

Pasteurization of the soil and the root system of the bonsai you will use sounds like a good idea, but be very careful with the bonsai! I assume that an older tree is very sensitive to soil changes as well as to being uprooted, pasteurized, then re-planted. You will need extensive research here. You will find many nurseries that sell bonsais and from my experience each of them are very helpful if you send them an e-mail with your questions. Just don't mention your plan to grow illegal shrooms on them! When I researched this I asked what it would take to grow truffles, since the environment they require is similar to the Fly Amantis.

Does RR have any thoughts on this? Anyone want to give this a go and see what happens? I know I'm curious!
- Deathbliss


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Your resistance to something,
Is the only power it has over you.
This too, will pass.


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OfflineNSF
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Re: Dwarf trees and mycorrhizal mushrooms? [Re: Deathbliss]
    #13936142 - 02/09/11 08:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not sure about the best time in a bonsai tree's life to inoculate it but doing it early can't hurt.  The mychorriza unlock nutrients for the roots. And if it's early in life you limit the chances of other micro fungi getting in there and setting up camp.

I bought someone a bonsai a while back and was shocked at how few were indoor plants, almost all were outdoor. There is a dwarf fig that doesn't mind stints indoors though.

Keep in mind that bonsais are often uprooted, have their roots clipped and are then returned to fresh soil. This could wreak havoc on fungi. I hadn't considered that bit until now.


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InvisiblePeterthinks
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Re: Dwarf trees and mycorrhizal mushrooms? [Re: NSF]
    #13941862 - 02/10/11 08:51 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'd clone a mushroom from the wild and work it on agar till it was clean.
Water the seeds and sprout them then move them to the mycelium mat.

Adding LC to sterilized or pasteurized soil or peat pellets may work also.
I'd make sure the LC is well grown, you don't want to add undigested sugar to the mix, anything may grow.
Add your seedlings to your stacked deck soil and hope for the best?

I'm just throwing out ideas, infecting seedlings, sprouts or cuttings seems the way to go.
Fully grown dwarf trees will already have stuff living on and around them that may prevent you from starting your partnership.


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Offlinekotter
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Re: Dwarf trees and mycorrhizal mushrooms? [Re: freespeech]
    #13956496 - 02/13/11 03:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

A while back I encountered some sort of oaks being sold with their roots purportedly hosting truffles. I'll try to locate where that was and update this comment.
Creating trees and shrubs with edible mycorrhizal fungi in their roots seems like a nice path for both private and commercial horticulturalists to be taking.
Bonsais might not be the ideal candidates due to their size, container size and the requisite stresses induced to maintain them as miniatures? Just as lifting for root pruning might adversely impact the mycelium, unlocking more nutrients for the tree might work against keeping it dwarfed?
It all sounds like a fascinating line of adventure.


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OfflineNSF
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Re: Dwarf trees and mycorrhizal mushrooms? [Re: kotter]
    #13959699 - 02/14/11 05:31 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

kotter said:
A while back I encountered some sort of oaks being sold with their roots purportedly hosting truffles. I'll try to locate where that was and update this comment.
Creating trees and shrubs with edible mycorrhizal fungi in their roots seems like a nice path for both private and commercial horticulturalists to be taking.
Bonsais might not be the ideal candidates due to their size, container size and the requisite stresses induced to maintain them as miniatures? Just as lifting for root pruning might adversely impact the mycelium, unlocking more nutrients for the tree might work against keeping it dwarfed?
It all sounds like a fascinating line of adventure.




I can help you there, it seems some of my enterprising countrymen and women are taking advantage of their pretty and isolated island home and are inoculating various trees for sale.  But they are being quite enterprising too and setting up situations where they grow their trees on your land and come and tend the trees and in a few years hopefully harvest the truffles, whilst giving you a share of the sale price.  I don't know what the figures are though. 

They do have some useful information regarding calcium rich soils.  They also recommend 10kg of lime in a 1 metre radius around the base of the new tree.  That sounds like TRUCKLOADS to me.  I would have thought that'd burn the ground, but maybe that's part of it.  (I now can't find those figures, maybe they told me them on the phone)

Have a browse though:
http://www.trufflesaustralis.com.au/
http://www.perigord.com.au/

I really would like a Quercus Ilex, because even if it doesn't go well you can fatten up a pig or a lamb on the foliage like the spanish do.  Utterly spectacular roast lamb there and the brilliance of their jamon (cured ham) is beyond reproach.


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Invisiblefreespeech
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Re: Dwarf trees and mycorrhizal mushrooms? [Re: kotter]
    #13963757 - 02/14/11 08:32 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

kotter said:
Bonsais might not be the ideal candidates due to their size, container size and the requisite stresses induced to maintain them as miniatures? Just as lifting for root pruning might adversely impact the mycelium, unlocking more nutrients for the tree might work against keeping it dwarfed?




I want to note the distinction between dwarf and bonsai trees. Here is a quote from the Wikipedia article on Bonsai:

The practice of bonsai is sometimes confused with dwarfing, but dwarfing more accurately refers to research and creation of plant cultivars that are permanent, genetic miniatures of existing species. Bonsai does not require genetically dwarfed trees, but rather depends on growing small trees from regular stock and seeds. Bonsai uses cultivation techniques like pruning, root reduction, potting, defoliation, and grafting to produce small trees that mimic the shape and style of mature, full-sized trees.


Although the application of fungiculture to bonsai is an interesting avenue of thought, in the OP I was specifically talking about dwarf trees. That is, a tree that is genetically predisposed to grow only to a certain limited size, and may even be possible to grow indoors.


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OfflineNSF
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Re: Dwarf trees and mycorrhizal mushrooms? [Re: freespeech]
    #13965632 - 02/15/11 01:47 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'm definitely not thinking creatively enough but what kinds of dwarf trees do people have inside generally? All that springs to mind are palms.  Maybe i should do some google research and find out some true dwarf indoor varietals.


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Invisiblephalcon005

Registered: 12/21/05
Posts: 217
Re: Dwarf trees and mycorrhizal mushrooms? [Re: NSF]
    #13973635 - 02/16/11 01:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NSF said:
I think the hard part is ensuring that the mycorrhizal fungi that you are hoping to grow is the first and only fungi present.  It's a great idea though.

http://www.artofbonsai.org/feature_articles/mushroom.php




I would agree with this.  I bought a small-variety of pine a couple of years ago for my landscaping and was interested in inoculating it with beneficial mycorrhizal fungi, though when I tore off the burlap bag around the rootball it was already covered . I wasn't looking for specific mushrooms but for something to simply benefit the tree and help with water uptake, so I was content with what I found.

If I wanted to try this I would hunt for whatever mycorrhizal fungi I was interested in and dig up saplings growing nearby to transplant. 

Another thought, I believe evergreens on average make very poor container plants.  Container plants are also more slow growing and need more maintenance that something planted in a simple raised bed.  I don't know if it would ever be economical in the end to try to get mycorrhizal fruitbodies from a container plant.


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OfflineNSF
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Re: Dwarf trees and mycorrhizal mushrooms? [Re: phalcon005]
    #13973877 - 02/16/11 02:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

But pinus radiata is an evergreen and is a very common companion plant. I really don't know what a spruce or an alder is though, they are talked about here a lot but australia doesn't have many.

We do have a lot of imported trees from the english but these are generally pines, cyprus, oak, elm, beech, poplar, willow, plane.  I'm not sure how that's at all relevant to the thread though.


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