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curious mouse said:
and back to my main point.

economic inequality reduces social cohesion and increases social unrest.

while i understand your point zappa....isn't there a point where the inequality can turn dangerous for both parties?

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curious mouse said:

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zappaisgod said:
Why?  Because you want more?

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I have minimal needs that need to be met. I'm frugal....

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Hard labor does pay better than most desk jobs.  At least if you actually learn a skill.

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Can you give an example?

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Tough.  What are you?  The pay police?  People get paid based on their relative ability, scarcity (or glut) of that ability and demand for their services.

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i'm saying people are being paid beyond their ability. financial markets went into bad shape. yet they were still giving ridiculously high bonuses congratulating them on a job well done.

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Silversoul said:
I think the data would tend to show that suicide is more prevalent in individualistic societies than in more communitarian ones.  Individualism tends to leave people feeling isolated and without a sense of purpose.  I think the practice of psychotherapy is largely the result of an individualistic society.  I would wager that such therapy is much less common in Catholic or East Asian cultures than in Protestant countries where individualism reigns.  In America, neighbors often don't know each other and talk to one another.  Some cultures would be appalled that people in our culture would leave their children in day care while they go off to work.

I think there are advantages to individualism as well.  In communitarian societies, there is a greater expectation to follow in your family's footsteps, and less ability to break out of that mold and create your own future.  And yet, that seems to go hand-in-hand with the isolation I mentioned.  It's up to you to create your own destiny, and if you can't get ahead in the rat race, you're considered a failure.

Perhaps I'm deviating from much of the discussion here over individualism vs. collectivism in the political sphere, and instead discussing individualist versus communitarian cultures.  I think there is an important distinction there.  I mentioned Catholicism and Protestantism, and I do think that Catholic cultures tend to be more communitarian while Protestant cultures tend to be more individualist.  And yet, that doesn't necessarily translate into economic policy.  Sweden has a much larger welfare state than Italy, and yet that country is historically Lutheran.  Moreover, I think that because of different economic policies, some people are quick to try to point out cultural differences between the US and Canada.  I call bullshit.  Canadian and American culture are virtually identical.  The difference that does exist between the two countries is largely a result of the political differences, not the cause of them.

So anyway, I think our culture could use a little more communitarianism, but it ought not to lose sight of the virtues of individualism as well.

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deCypher said:
Excellent post.  But if you had to pick, would you live in a communitarian or individualistic society?

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curious mouse said:

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zappaisgod said:
Why?  Because you want more?

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I have minimal needs that need to be met. I'm frugal....

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Hard labor does pay better than most desk jobs.  At least if you actually learn a skill.

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Can you give an example?

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Tough.  What are you?  The pay police?  People get paid based on their relative ability, scarcity (or glut) of that ability and demand for their services.

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i'm saying people are being paid beyond their ability. financial markets went into bad shape. yet they were still giving ridiculously high bonuses congratulating them on a job well done.

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The problem is that I don't give a shit how you feel unless you are connected to me through a interpersonal relationship. I have no obligations to do anything, all communitarian ideology does is subvert my happiness to the will of the stupid.

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curious mouse said:
Any trade pays better than what?

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how did the govt. coerce them to lend out risky loans?

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zappaisgod said:

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curious mouse said:
Any trade pays better than what?

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Most desk jobs.  Fuck me, follow along in your own thread at least.

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how did the govt. coerce them to lend out risky loans?

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CRA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, bogus discrimination lawsuits.  The whole routine is not for here and has been explained several times in other appropriate forums.

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curious mouse said:
they want the monetary policy to go exactly as it's been going....because they set it.

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If monetary policy has been set then by definition isn't it no longer a free market? 

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curious mouse said:
there are most certainly collective needs...the need for security, stability, and a functioning economy.

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MushroomTrip said:

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curious mouse said:
there are most certainly collective needs...the need for security, stability, and a functioning economy.

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But maybe I don't care about that crap. And, if I don't care, what's my motivation to care about the common good?

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MushroomTrip said:
And what makes you assume I was talking about any of these?
What if a society is obsessed with safety and security, and, in taking care of those needs, it supresses the freedom of certain individuals who don't value safety at any cost so much?

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MushroomTrip said:
One doesn't have to be a socipath in order to put more emphasis on one's personal needs rather than the needs of a collective. We all put emphasis on our interests only that some like to make it seem that they aren't doing it.

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MushroomTrip said:
Some people have developed a better ability to reason and think in terms of consequences. Those people might be more able to see the benefits of compassion, but this doesn't mean they're not selfish anymore. It only means that they can see the bigger picture and realize that they can still get the things they need without having to willingly produce damage to other people. But this is just a matter of prioritizing and being able to find alternate solutions for the same problem. Similarly, those who harm other people just so they can get ahead in life, might do so because intelectually they can't think of any other way of getting what they need.

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