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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinecurious mouse
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The individualistic society
    #13904874 - 02/04/11 12:27 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

yes or no?

Edited by curious mouse (02/08/11 01:06 PM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13904909 - 02/04/11 12:32 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The individualistic society erodes community...

How so, what exactly do you mean by individualistic?



...and general well-being

If an individualistic society is one that values individuals more than the population in general, I don't think the general well-being of each individual in such a society necessarily erodes.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: Poid]
    #13904979 - 02/04/11 12:44 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Is this a stab at capitalism?


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: auxiliary]
    #13904998 - 02/04/11 12:48 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

and general well-being... !?


gonna have to explain that one way more


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Jesus loves you.

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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: andrewss]
    #13905090 - 02/04/11 01:07 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

general-wellbeing would be the average standard of living (are the resources be efficiently distributed among the population?) also perceived happiness would be another measure.

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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: auxiliary]
    #13905096 - 02/04/11 01:08 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

auxiliary said:
Is this a stab at capitalism?





not a stab at capitalism....merely trying to discover what i truly believe in.

i hold arguments for both individualism and collectivism.

and i'm tired of being a walking contradiction.

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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: Poid]
    #13905106 - 02/04/11 01:11 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Poid said:

How so, what exactly do you mean by individualistic?






Putting the needs of the individual without regard of what's right or just for the whole. 


Quote:

If an individualistic society is one that values individuals more than the population in general, I don't think the general well-being of each individual in such a society necessarily erodes.




look at oligopolies and monopolies....their practices...hurt the standard of living of the whole.

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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13905122 - 02/04/11 01:14 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Emma Goldman wrote in criticism of individualism:

‘Rugged individualism’ has meant all the ‘individualism’ for the masters, while the people are regimented into a slave caste to serve a handful of self-seeking ‘supermen.’…Their ‘rugged individualism’ is simply one of the many pretenses the ruling class makes to mask unbridled business and political extortion.”

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13905127 - 02/04/11 01:15 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Putting the needs of the individual without regard of what's right or just for the whole.




Which can be pretty confusing, because the whole is necessarily made up of the parts.  Also, its hard to judge what is good for the whole because the whole doesnt have wants and needs - the individuals do.

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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: DieCommie]
    #13905172 - 02/04/11 01:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Putting the needs of the individual without regard of what's right or just for the whole.




Which can be pretty confusing, because the whole is necessarily made up of the parts.  Also, its hard to judge what is good for the whole because the whole doesnt have wants and needs - the individuals do.





those wants and needs are all supplied by other humans and are reciprocal.....

do you really think the wants and needs of individuals differ that widely?

there are most certainly collective needs...the need for security, stability, and a functioning economy.

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OfflineNortonStPhallus
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13905206 - 02/04/11 01:26 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

auxiliary said:
Is this a stab at capitalism?





not a stab at capitalism....merely trying to discover what i truly believe in.

i hold arguments for both individualism and collectivism.

and i'm tired of being a walking contradiction.





Well get used to it, because as with most things its not black and white. Collectivism doesn't take into account selfishness, which is a large part of human nature, Individualism comes damn near to making selfishness a virtue at times. So I think the best answer is some sort of middle ground, a society which harnesses selfishness while at the same time working mostly for the greater good.


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #13905227 - 02/04/11 01:30 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

what sort of society would harness the positive aspects of both?

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OfflineNortonStPhallus
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse] * 1
    #13905253 - 02/04/11 01:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Western civilization has come as close as any in history (actually closer).


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Offline4896744
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #13905255 - 02/04/11 01:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The best standard of living seems to come from a hybrid of individualism and collectivism, leaning heavily towards the individualist end of the spectrum.

I would also suggest that morality is no more than a product of evolution which holds us back on a personal level. I am not sure if you are wanting to get into that kind of discussion though.


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Live your Life! :heart:

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13905286 - 02/04/11 01:42 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Putting the needs of the individual without regard of what's right or just for the whole.




Which can be pretty confusing, because the whole is necessarily made up of the parts.  Also, its hard to judge what is good for the whole because the whole doesnt have wants and needs - the individuals do.





those wants and needs are all supplied by other humans and are reciprocal.....




What do you mean by reciprocal?
Quote:



do you really think the wants and needs of individuals differ that widely?




Absolutely.  For instance I don't really think it is in my interest to supply you with anything at all.  You think exactly opposite.  Completely and perfectly opposed.  We may have some shared interests but by and large I believe we are very much apart.
Quote:



there are most certainly collective needs...the need for security, stability, and a functioning economy.



Those are not collective needs.  Those are individual needs shared by many members of a group, though not necessarily all members of a group.  A collective does not have needs.  Nor should it.  It should exist solely to provide for the needs of the individual members.  Conflicts among the members are served by politics.  That is the primary function of politics, conflict resolution.

Only the individual matters and he should be free to do whatever he sees fit so long as he does no harm to other individuals.  To yoke him to a collective is to subjugate and enslave him.  The individual dies so that the collective, an abstract concept, may thrive?  I don't fucking think so.  Never forget that the primary purpose of any collective is to improve the lot of the individuals in that collective.  Otherwise no individuals will stay in the collective except at gunpoint.  Ignoring the individual ensures the extinction of the collective.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: 4896744]
    #13905291 - 02/04/11 01:43 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
The best standard of living seems to come from a hybrid of individualism and collectivism, leaning heavily towards the individualist end of the spectrum.

I would also suggest that morality is no more than a product of evolution which holds us back on a personal level. I am not sure if you are wanting to get into that kind of discussion though.



Are you contending that social conventions are harmful?


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Offline4896744
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13905300 - 02/04/11 01:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

iThink said:
The best standard of living seems to come from a hybrid of individualism and collectivism, leaning heavily towards the individualist end of the spectrum.

I would also suggest that morality is no more than a product of evolution which holds us back on a personal level. I am not sure if you are wanting to get into that kind of discussion though.



Are you contending that social conventions are harmful?




Depends on how we define harmful. I would say that they can get in the way of your personal happiness, which is all that matters to me.


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Live your Life! :heart:

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OfflineNortonStPhallus
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: 4896744]
    #13905320 - 02/04/11 01:51 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

iThink said:
The best standard of living seems to come from a hybrid of individualism and collectivism, leaning heavily towards the individualist end of the spectrum.

I would also suggest that morality is no more than a product of evolution which holds us back on a personal level. I am not sure if you are wanting to get into that kind of discussion though.



Are you contending that social conventions are harmful?




Depends on how we define harmful. I would say that they can get in the way of your personal happiness, which is all that matters to me.





Its all well and good for you to adopt this philosophy of selfishness, but spread it society wide and one's self interest begins to stamp on another's.


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:eatingout:

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: 4896744]
    #13905321 - 02/04/11 01:51 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

iThink said:
The best standard of living seems to come from a hybrid of individualism and collectivism, leaning heavily towards the individualist end of the spectrum.

I would also suggest that morality is no more than a product of evolution which holds us back on a personal level. I am not sure if you are wanting to get into that kind of discussion though.



Are you contending that social conventions are harmful?




Depends on how we define harmful. I would say that they can get in the way of your personal happiness, which is all that matters to me.



Two things I will take from that:

1.  You are 100% on the individual side of this discussion and
2.  You are waffling on the question.  There can be no question that social conventions contribute positively to the smooth running of most interpersonal relationships.  There can also be no question that there are certain benefits to the individual members to have a hassle free collective.  Do you have any idea what life would be like without social conventions?


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Offline4896744
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13905354 - 02/04/11 02:00 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

iThink said:
The best standard of living seems to come from a hybrid of individualism and collectivism, leaning heavily towards the individualist end of the spectrum.

I would also suggest that morality is no more than a product of evolution which holds us back on a personal level. I am not sure if you are wanting to get into that kind of discussion though.



Are you contending that social conventions are harmful?




Depends on how we define harmful. I would say that they can get in the way of your personal happiness, which is all that matters to me.



Two things I will take from that:

1.  You are 100% on the individual side of this discussion and
2.  You are waffling on the question.  There can be no question that social conventions contribute positively to the smooth running of most interpersonal relationships.  There can also be no question that there are certain benefits to the individual members to have a hassle free collective.  Do you have any idea what life would be like without social conventions?




1. I still have a level of empathy and I don't enjoy seeing suffering so I am not opposed to some very mild collectivism for it makes me happier. I guess you could still say that makes me 100% individualist.

2. Perhaps I should have emphasized "can". I agree that the majority of social conventions are necessary to my happiness. However, there are quite a few which hold my happiness back. For example, I used to completely buy into the idea of everyone being equal and that we should help our fellow man to be "good" people. It caused me to drift towards socialism, not to mention a constant weight on my shoulders due to all of the suffering that goes on. Through rationalization I have greatly suppressed the empathy I used to feel which led to a greater sense of freedom/happiness.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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