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Offlinecurious mouse
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The individualistic society
    #13904874 - 02/04/11 02:27 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

yes or no?


Edited by curious mouse (02/08/11 03:06 PM)


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13904909 - 02/04/11 02:32 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

The individualistic society erodes community...

How so, what exactly do you mean by individualistic?



...and general well-being

If an individualistic society is one that values individuals more than the population in general, I don't think the general well-being of each individual in such a society necessarily erodes.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: Poid]
    #13904979 - 02/04/11 02:44 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Is this a stab at capitalism?


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: auxiliary]
    #13904998 - 02/04/11 02:48 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

and general well-being... !?


gonna have to explain that one way more


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: andrewss]
    #13905090 - 02/04/11 03:07 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

general-wellbeing would be the average standard of living (are the resources be efficiently distributed among the population?) also perceived happiness would be another measure.


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: auxiliary]
    #13905096 - 02/04/11 03:08 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

auxiliary said:
Is this a stab at capitalism?





not a stab at capitalism....merely trying to discover what i truly believe in.

i hold arguments for both individualism and collectivism.

and i'm tired of being a walking contradiction.


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: Poid]
    #13905106 - 02/04/11 03:11 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:

How so, what exactly do you mean by individualistic?






Putting the needs of the individual without regard of what's right or just for the whole. 


Quote:

If an individualistic society is one that values individuals more than the population in general, I don't think the general well-being of each individual in such a society necessarily erodes.




look at oligopolies and monopolies....their practices...hurt the standard of living of the whole.


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13905122 - 02/04/11 03:14 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Emma Goldman wrote in criticism of individualism:

‘Rugged individualism’ has meant all the ‘individualism’ for the masters, while the people are regimented into a slave caste to serve a handful of self-seeking ‘supermen.’…Their ‘rugged individualism’ is simply one of the many pretenses the ruling class makes to mask unbridled business and political extortion.”


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13905127 - 02/04/11 03:15 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Putting the needs of the individual without regard of what's right or just for the whole.




Which can be pretty confusing, because the whole is necessarily made up of the parts.  Also, its hard to judge what is good for the whole because the whole doesnt have wants and needs - the individuals do.


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: DieCommie]
    #13905172 - 02/04/11 03:22 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Putting the needs of the individual without regard of what's right or just for the whole.




Which can be pretty confusing, because the whole is necessarily made up of the parts.  Also, its hard to judge what is good for the whole because the whole doesnt have wants and needs - the individuals do.





those wants and needs are all supplied by other humans and are reciprocal.....

do you really think the wants and needs of individuals differ that widely?

there are most certainly collective needs...the need for security, stability, and a functioning economy.


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OfflineNortonStPhallus
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13905206 - 02/04/11 03:26 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

auxiliary said:
Is this a stab at capitalism?





not a stab at capitalism....merely trying to discover what i truly believe in.

i hold arguments for both individualism and collectivism.

and i'm tired of being a walking contradiction.





Well get used to it, because as with most things its not black and white. Collectivism doesn't take into account selfishness, which is a large part of human nature, Individualism comes damn near to making selfishness a virtue at times. So I think the best answer is some sort of middle ground, a society which harnesses selfishness while at the same time working mostly for the greater good.


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #13905227 - 02/04/11 03:30 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

what sort of society would harness the positive aspects of both?


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OfflineNortonStPhallus
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse] * 1
    #13905253 - 02/04/11 03:35 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Western civilization has come as close as any in history (actually closer).


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Offline4896744
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #13905255 - 02/04/11 03:35 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

The best standard of living seems to come from a hybrid of individualism and collectivism, leaning heavily towards the individualist end of the spectrum.

I would also suggest that morality is no more than a product of evolution which holds us back on a personal level. I am not sure if you are wanting to get into that kind of discussion though.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13905286 - 02/04/11 03:42 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Putting the needs of the individual without regard of what's right or just for the whole.




Which can be pretty confusing, because the whole is necessarily made up of the parts.  Also, its hard to judge what is good for the whole because the whole doesnt have wants and needs - the individuals do.





those wants and needs are all supplied by other humans and are reciprocal.....




What do you mean by reciprocal?
Quote:



do you really think the wants and needs of individuals differ that widely?




Absolutely.  For instance I don't really think it is in my interest to supply you with anything at all.  You think exactly opposite.  Completely and perfectly opposed.  We may have some shared interests but by and large I believe we are very much apart.
Quote:



there are most certainly collective needs...the need for security, stability, and a functioning economy.



Those are not collective needs.  Those are individual needs shared by many members of a group, though not necessarily all members of a group.  A collective does not have needs.  Nor should it.  It should exist solely to provide for the needs of the individual members.  Conflicts among the members are served by politics.  That is the primary function of politics, conflict resolution.

Only the individual matters and he should be free to do whatever he sees fit so long as he does no harm to other individuals.  To yoke him to a collective is to subjugate and enslave him.  The individual dies so that the collective, an abstract concept, may thrive?  I don't fucking think so.  Never forget that the primary purpose of any collective is to improve the lot of the individuals in that collective.  Otherwise no individuals will stay in the collective except at gunpoint.  Ignoring the individual ensures the extinction of the collective.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: 4896744]
    #13905291 - 02/04/11 03:43 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
The best standard of living seems to come from a hybrid of individualism and collectivism, leaning heavily towards the individualist end of the spectrum.

I would also suggest that morality is no more than a product of evolution which holds us back on a personal level. I am not sure if you are wanting to get into that kind of discussion though.



Are you contending that social conventions are harmful?


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Offline4896744
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13905300 - 02/04/11 03:45 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

iThink said:
The best standard of living seems to come from a hybrid of individualism and collectivism, leaning heavily towards the individualist end of the spectrum.

I would also suggest that morality is no more than a product of evolution which holds us back on a personal level. I am not sure if you are wanting to get into that kind of discussion though.



Are you contending that social conventions are harmful?




Depends on how we define harmful. I would say that they can get in the way of your personal happiness, which is all that matters to me.


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OfflineNortonStPhallus
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: 4896744]
    #13905320 - 02/04/11 03:51 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

iThink said:
The best standard of living seems to come from a hybrid of individualism and collectivism, leaning heavily towards the individualist end of the spectrum.

I would also suggest that morality is no more than a product of evolution which holds us back on a personal level. I am not sure if you are wanting to get into that kind of discussion though.



Are you contending that social conventions are harmful?




Depends on how we define harmful. I would say that they can get in the way of your personal happiness, which is all that matters to me.





Its all well and good for you to adopt this philosophy of selfishness, but spread it society wide and one's self interest begins to stamp on another's.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: 4896744]
    #13905321 - 02/04/11 03:51 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

iThink said:
The best standard of living seems to come from a hybrid of individualism and collectivism, leaning heavily towards the individualist end of the spectrum.

I would also suggest that morality is no more than a product of evolution which holds us back on a personal level. I am not sure if you are wanting to get into that kind of discussion though.



Are you contending that social conventions are harmful?




Depends on how we define harmful. I would say that they can get in the way of your personal happiness, which is all that matters to me.



Two things I will take from that:

1.  You are 100% on the individual side of this discussion and
2.  You are waffling on the question.  There can be no question that social conventions contribute positively to the smooth running of most interpersonal relationships.  There can also be no question that there are certain benefits to the individual members to have a hassle free collective.  Do you have any idea what life would be like without social conventions?


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Offline4896744
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13905354 - 02/04/11 04:00 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

iThink said:
The best standard of living seems to come from a hybrid of individualism and collectivism, leaning heavily towards the individualist end of the spectrum.

I would also suggest that morality is no more than a product of evolution which holds us back on a personal level. I am not sure if you are wanting to get into that kind of discussion though.



Are you contending that social conventions are harmful?




Depends on how we define harmful. I would say that they can get in the way of your personal happiness, which is all that matters to me.



Two things I will take from that:

1.  You are 100% on the individual side of this discussion and
2.  You are waffling on the question.  There can be no question that social conventions contribute positively to the smooth running of most interpersonal relationships.  There can also be no question that there are certain benefits to the individual members to have a hassle free collective.  Do you have any idea what life would be like without social conventions?




1. I still have a level of empathy and I don't enjoy seeing suffering so I am not opposed to some very mild collectivism for it makes me happier. I guess you could still say that makes me 100% individualist.

2. Perhaps I should have emphasized "can". I agree that the majority of social conventions are necessary to my happiness. However, there are quite a few which hold my happiness back. For example, I used to completely buy into the idea of everyone being equal and that we should help our fellow man to be "good" people. It caused me to drift towards socialism, not to mention a constant weight on my shoulders due to all of the suffering that goes on. Through rationalization I have greatly suppressed the empathy I used to feel which led to a greater sense of freedom/happiness.


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Offline4896744
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #13905363 - 02/04/11 04:01 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NortonStPhallus said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

iThink said:
The best standard of living seems to come from a hybrid of individualism and collectivism, leaning heavily towards the individualist end of the spectrum.

I would also suggest that morality is no more than a product of evolution which holds us back on a personal level. I am not sure if you are wanting to get into that kind of discussion though.



Are you contending that social conventions are harmful?




Depends on how we define harmful. I would say that they can get in the way of your personal happiness, which is all that matters to me.





Its all well and good for you to adopt this philosophy of selfishness, but spread it society wide and one's self interest begins to stamp on another's.




Luckily, evolution made it impossible for most people to be completely selfish/amoral.


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OfflineNortonStPhallus
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: 4896744]
    #13905391 - 02/04/11 04:06 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Its not impossible, it just takes a serious scarcity of resources, prosperity makes kindness easy.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: 4896744]
    #13905394 - 02/04/11 04:07 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Ah yes, "equality" and the myths surrounding it.  No, not every one is equal.  That is purely a fiction adopted for legal purposes.  It is also, even in that realm, somewhat fictitious.  But it is complete nonsense in the real world.


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Offline4896744
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #13905406 - 02/04/11 04:08 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NortonStPhallus said:
Its not impossible, it just takes a serious scarcity of resources, prosperity makes kindness easy.




Good point.


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13905433 - 02/04/11 04:11 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Ah yes, "equality" and the myths surrounding it.  No, not every one is equal.  That is purely a fiction adopted for legal purposes.  It is also, even in that realm, somewhat fictitious.  But it is complete nonsense in the real world.




All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.  :smirk:


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: deCypher]
    #13905445 - 02/04/11 04:14 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah its bullshit, I still prefer to assume equality until I have a good reason to prefer one person over another.


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13905725 - 02/04/11 05:01 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Ah yes, "equality" and the myths surrounding it.  No, not every one is equal.  That is purely a fiction adopted for legal purposes.  It is also, even in that realm, somewhat fictitious.  But it is complete nonsense in the real world.





this argument leaves out the nurture side of the nature vs. nurture debate.

also...if you're not careful with this idea...you may condone the breading of a race of laborers.


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Offline4896744
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13905775 - 02/04/11 05:10 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Ah yes, "equality" and the myths surrounding it.  No, not every one is equal.  That is purely a fiction adopted for legal purposes.  It is also, even in that realm, somewhat fictitious.  But it is complete nonsense in the real world.





this argument leaves out the nurture side of the nature vs. nurture debate.

also...if you're not careful with this idea...you may condone the breading of a race of laborers.




Why shouldn't I condone the "breeding* of a race of laborers"?


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13905777 - 02/04/11 05:10 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What do you mean by reciprocal?


Some are needs feed off of each other. With out each of us collectively taking part in society....you would not be able to meet your needs.
Quote:


Absolutely.  For instance I don't really think it is in my interest to supply you with anything at all.  You think exactly opposite.  Completely and perfectly opposed.  We may have some shared interests but by and large I believe we are very much apart.



i don't believe in anyone supplying anyone what they are not due. equal work equal pay. usually capital stock reaps 30% of profits..and labor takes 70%...the problem is that of that 70% a small majority are claiming it.
Quote:

Those are not collective needs.  Those are individual needs shared by many members of a group, though not necessarily all members of a group.  A collective does not have needs.  Nor should it.  It should exist solely to provide for the needs of the individual members.  Conflicts among the members are served by politics.  That is the primary function of politics, conflict resolution.



politics in a do as you please society as long as it benefits yourself becomes corrupt. i think there are basic human needs that we share collectively.

Quote:


Only the individual matters and he should be free to do whatever he sees fit so long as he does no harm to other individuals.  To yoke him to a collective is to subjugate and enslave him.  The individual dies so that the collective, an abstract concept, may thrive?  I don't fucking think so.  Never forget that the primary purpose of any collective is to improve the lot of the individuals in that collective.  Otherwise no individuals will stay in the collective except at gunpoint.  Ignoring the individual ensures the extinction of the collective.




what ever he sees fit as to not harm others.....do you not see that the poor or lower caste in this society are just as much being enslaved?


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: 4896744]
    #13905824 - 02/04/11 05:21 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

edit-- fuck it


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Edited by NortonStPhallus (02/04/11 05:24 PM)


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Offline4896744
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #13905841 - 02/04/11 05:23 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NortonStPhallus said:
Why should you do anything?




Because I feel like it.


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: 4896744]
    #13905858 - 02/04/11 05:26 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Damn you already responded, ninja edit failed. OK, so why suppress empathy, doesn't that make you feel like not being a selfish/amoral?


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: 4896744]
    #13905873 - 02/04/11 05:28 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Ah yes, "equality" and the myths surrounding it.  No, not every one is equal.  That is purely a fiction adopted for legal purposes.  It is also, even in that realm, somewhat fictitious.  But it is complete nonsense in the real world.





this argument leaves out the nurture side of the nature vs. nurture debate.

also...if you're not careful with this idea...you may condone the breading of a race of laborers.




Why shouldn't I condone the "breeding* of a race of laborers"?




i didn't say you shouldn't.

but i think most people would agree that this would be a very bad thing.


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13905914 - 02/04/11 05:35 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Ah yes, "equality" and the myths surrounding it.  No, not every one is equal.  That is purely a fiction adopted for legal purposes.  It is also, even in that realm, somewhat fictitious.  But it is complete nonsense in the real world.





this argument leaves out the nurture side of the nature vs. nurture debate.

also...if you're not careful with this idea...you may condone the breading of a race of laborers.



It is irrelevant.  No amount of training will ever enable me to play CF for the Yankees  and no amount of training will make an idiot a surgeon.  And why would I breed a "race" of laborers?  They breed themselves.

Like I said, it is a legal fiction.  It has nothing to do with ability, which is massively unequal.


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13905945 - 02/04/11 05:41 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Ah yes, "equality" and the myths surrounding it.  No, not every one is equal.  That is purely a fiction adopted for legal purposes.  It is also, even in that realm, somewhat fictitious.  But it is complete nonsense in the real world.





this argument leaves out the nurture side of the nature vs. nurture debate.

also...if you're not careful with this idea...you may condone the breading of a race of laborers.



It is irrelevant.  No amount of training will ever enable me to play CF for the Yankees  and no amount of training will make an idiot a surgeon.  And why would I breed a "race" of laborers?  They breed themselves.

Like I said, it is a legal fiction.  It has nothing to do with ability, which is massively unequal.




i'm not saying we don't specialize....
i'm saying wage distribution should be more fair.

hard labor is just as taxing as sitting in an office looking over statistics (and equally necessary in producing the good or service).

i'm not sure some of the wages people make justify the relatively small investment in their own human capital.


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: 4896744] * 1
    #13905999 - 02/04/11 05:52 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Ah yes, "equality" and the myths surrounding it.  No, not every one is equal.  That is purely a fiction adopted for legal purposes.  It is also, even in that realm, somewhat fictitious.  But it is complete nonsense in the real world.





this argument leaves out the nurture side of the nature vs. nurture debate.

also...if you're not careful with this idea...you may condone the breading of a race of laborers.




Why shouldn't I condone the "breeding* of a race of laborers"?





And what makes you think it hasn't already happened?


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13906106 - 02/04/11 06:12 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:


i'm not saying we don't specialize....
i'm saying wage distribution should be more fair.




Why?  Because you want more?
Quote:



hard labor is just as taxing as sitting in an office looking over statistics (and equally necessary in producing the good or service).




Hard labor does pay better than most desk jobs.  At least if you actually learn a skill.
Quote:



i'm not sure some of the wages people make justify the relatively small investment in their own human capital.




Tough.  What are you?  The pay police?  People get paid based on their relative ability, scarcity (or glut) of that ability and demand for their services.


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13906365 - 02/04/11 07:12 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

and back to my main point.

economic inequality reduces social cohesion and increases social unrest.

while i understand your point zappa....isn't there a point where the inequality can turn dangerous for both parties?


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13906409 - 02/04/11 07:20 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Why?  Because you want more?
Quote:


I have minimal needs that need to be met. I'm frugal....

Quote:


Hard labor does pay better than most desk jobs.  At least if you actually learn a skill.


Can you give an example?
Quote:


Tough.  What are you?  The pay police?  People get paid based on their relative ability, scarcity (or glut) of that ability and demand for their services.



i'm saying people are being paid beyond their ability. financial markets went into bad shape. yet they were still giving ridiculously high bonuses congratulating them on a job well done.


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13906411 - 02/04/11 07:21 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Can you say French Revolution?  And then can you say, "here comes the new boss, same as the old boss"?


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: Icelander]
    #13906424 - 02/04/11 07:25 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

what's with making one man or woman a boss?

how about a collaborated effort in how to efficiently distribute recourses. the groups should be localized and small. and provide for many of their needs with out having to waste resources shipping things across the world.


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse] * 1
    #13906447 - 02/04/11 07:29 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

How about anything but what actually is?:shrug: Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's going to change.  Most people love having a boss who takes responsibility even though they bitch about it.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13906509 - 02/04/11 07:43 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
and back to my main point.

economic inequality reduces social cohesion and increases social unrest.

while i understand your point zappa....isn't there a point where the inequality can turn dangerous for both parties?




I hear Egypt is becoming a dangerous place...


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse] * 1
    #13906578 - 02/04/11 07:56 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I think the data would tend to show that suicide is more prevalent in individualistic societies than in more communitarian ones.  Individualism tends to leave people feeling isolated and without a sense of purpose.  I think the practice of psychotherapy is largely the result of an individualistic society.  I would wager that such therapy is much less common in Catholic or East Asian cultures than in Protestant countries where individualism reigns.  In America, neighbors often don't know each other and talk to one another.  Some cultures would be appalled that people in our culture would leave their children in day care while they go off to work.

I think there are advantages to individualism as well.  In communitarian societies, there is a greater expectation to follow in your family's footsteps, and less ability to break out of that mold and create your own future.  And yet, that seems to go hand-in-hand with the isolation I mentioned.  It's up to you to create your own destiny, and if you can't get ahead in the rat race, you're considered a failure.

Perhaps I'm deviating from much of the discussion here over individualism vs. collectivism in the political sphere, and instead discussing individualist versus communitarian cultures.  I think there is an important distinction there.  I mentioned Catholicism and Protestantism, and I do think that Catholic cultures tend to be more communitarian while Protestant cultures tend to be more individualist.  And yet, that doesn't necessarily translate into economic policy.  Sweden has a much larger welfare state than Italy, and yet that country is historically Lutheran.  Moreover, I think that because of different economic policies, some people are quick to try to point out cultural differences between the US and Canada.  I call bullshit.  Canadian and American culture are virtually identical.  The difference that does exist between the two countries is largely a result of the political differences, not the cause of them.

So anyway, I think our culture could use a little more communitarianism, but it ought not to lose sight of the virtues of individualism as well.


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13906586 - 02/04/11 07:58 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Why?  Because you want more?



I have minimal needs that need to be met. I'm frugal....




Good for you.  Now stop whining.
Quote:



Quote:


Hard labor does pay better than most desk jobs.  At least if you actually learn a skill.


Can you give an example?




Just about any trade pays better.  Plumber carpenter electrician.
Quote:


Quote:


Tough.  What are you?  The pay police?  People get paid based on their relative ability, scarcity (or glut) of that ability and demand for their services.



i'm saying people are being paid beyond their ability. financial markets went into bad shape. yet they were still giving ridiculously high bonuses congratulating them on a job well done.




Financial markets went into bad shape because the government coerced banks into lending to bums who, naturally, didn't pay the money back.  If anybody's pay should be cut it should be people who work for the government.  If Goldman says this guy is worth X dollars to them then he is worth X dollars to them.  It isn't your fucking money to worry about.  You won't make one extra dime if he makes less.  I might make less, though, because they are the people who hire me.  And my crew.


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: Silversoul]
    #13906587 - 02/04/11 07:58 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I think the data would tend to show that suicide is more prevalent in individualistic societies than in more communitarian ones.  Individualism tends to leave people feeling isolated and without a sense of purpose.  I think the practice of psychotherapy is largely the result of an individualistic society.  I would wager that such therapy is much less common in Catholic or East Asian cultures than in Protestant countries where individualism reigns.  In America, neighbors often don't know each other and talk to one another.  Some cultures would be appalled that people in our culture would leave their children in day care while they go off to work.

I think there are advantages to individualism as well.  In communitarian societies, there is a greater expectation to follow in your family's footsteps, and less ability to break out of that mold and create your own future.  And yet, that seems to go hand-in-hand with the isolation I mentioned.  It's up to you to create your own destiny, and if you can't get ahead in the rat race, you're considered a failure.

Perhaps I'm deviating from much of the discussion here over individualism vs. collectivism in the political sphere, and instead discussing individualist versus communitarian cultures.  I think there is an important distinction there.  I mentioned Catholicism and Protestantism, and I do think that Catholic cultures tend to be more communitarian while Protestant cultures tend to be more individualist.  And yet, that doesn't necessarily translate into economic policy.  Sweden has a much larger welfare state than Italy, and yet that country is historically Lutheran.  Moreover, I think that because of different economic policies, some people are quick to try to point out cultural differences between the US and Canada.  I call bullshit.  Canadian and American culture are virtually identical.  The difference that does exist between the two countries is largely a result of the political differences, not the cause of them.

So anyway, I think our culture could use a little more communitarianism, but it ought not to lose sight of the virtues of individualism as well.




Excellent post.  But if you had to pick, would you live in a communitarian or individualistic society?


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: deCypher]
    #13906604 - 02/04/11 08:02 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Excellent post.  But if you had to pick, would you live in a communitarian or individualistic society?



In good times, I'd say individualist.  In bad times, I'd say communitarian.  So right now I'd probably say communitarian.


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13906639 - 02/04/11 08:08 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Any trade pays better than what?

how did the govt. coerce them to lend out risky loans?


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13906647 - 02/04/11 08:09 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Why?  Because you want more?
Quote:


I have minimal needs that need to be met. I'm frugal....

Quote:


Hard labor does pay better than most desk jobs.  At least if you actually learn a skill.


Can you give an example?
Quote:


Tough.  What are you?  The pay police?  People get paid based on their relative ability, scarcity (or glut) of that ability and demand for their services.



i'm saying people are being paid beyond their ability. financial markets went into bad shape. yet they were still giving ridiculously high bonuses congratulating them on a job well done.




The problem is that I don't give a shit how you feel unless you are connected to me through a interpersonal relationship. I have no obligations to do anything, all communitarian ideology does is subvert my happiness to the will of the stupid.


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13906720 - 02/04/11 08:22 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
Any trade pays better than what?




Most desk jobs.  Fuck me, follow along in your own thread at least.
Quote:



how did the govt. coerce them to lend out risky loans?




CRA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, bogus discrimination lawsuits.  The whole routine is not for here and has been explained several times in other appropriate forums.


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13913901 - 02/06/11 03:41 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

curious mouse said:
Any trade pays better than what?




Most desk jobs.  Fuck me, follow along in your own thread at least.
Quote:



how did the govt. coerce them to lend out risky loans?




CRA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, bogus discrimination lawsuits.  The whole routine is not for here and has been explained several times in other appropriate forums.




sounds like you are trying to pin the whole crises on the govt. and not willing to admit that free-markets, given a supposed unbridled human nature, create mechanisms that can cause the whole system to fail.

do you not think that the powers that be, in the free-markets, are not the puppeteers behind politics.

they want the monetary policy to go exactly as it's been going....because they set it.


Edited by curious mouse (02/06/11 03:42 AM)


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13913971 - 02/06/11 04:02 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
they want the monetary policy to go exactly as it's been going....because they set it.




If monetary policy has been set then by definition isn't it no longer a free market?  :confused:


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: deCypher]
    #13914023 - 02/06/11 04:21 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

i don't think a truly free market could ever work.


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13914028 - 02/06/11 04:22 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

What standards are you judging "work" by?


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: deCypher]
    #13914162 - 02/06/11 05:04 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

work would be...to accomplish what it sets out to accomplish.


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13914313 - 02/06/11 06:30 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Totally agreed with OP, I think.

It is indeed the individual that causes the downfall of society. As long as each of us desires to be "rich" and not realizes that rich is relative, what was rich 50 years ago is poor today, we will keep on consuming the whole planet until everything is gone. We are heading straight for doom. The illogical desire to be rich, is going to cause our down fall.

Rich is a relative term. The moment everyone gets rich, you suddnely become poor again, because rich is relative. So the whole cycle of trying to get rich is starting again. People will complain they are poor because they see people around them who are "richer" but in reality, these poor people are still rich. It just doesn't seem like it because of relativity.

Each one of us is right now living better than any king or emperor has ever lived in the history of mankind. Yet we are all whining like little bitches how hard life is etc.. Please, never in history, had any population had the opportunity for so much luxury, we can eat all the possible foods that exist from all over the world, we can watch all possible media we want, practically for free, we can access all information we want, for free.... Even with all this luxury, people are still unhappy, people still want more. So, this very unsatiable desire, to want more and more, is going to lead to the destruction of the planet.

It's not the goverment that is at fault, it is the hungry individual who is to blame here.  Sure, 1 person can't change the world, but we are not 1 person, we are 7 billion, we are the world. All it takes is for us to stop being greedy motherfuckers, and all problems would dissapear as snow before the sun.


Edited by Diaboleros (02/06/11 06:39 AM)


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse] * 1
    #13914562 - 02/06/11 09:05 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
there are most certainly collective needs...the need for security, stability, and a functioning economy.




But maybe I don't care about that crap. And, if I don't care, what's my motivation to care about the common good?


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #13914716 - 02/06/11 10:16 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

curious mouse said:
there are most certainly collective needs...the need for security, stability, and a functioning economy.




But maybe I don't care about that crap. And, if I don't care, what's my motivation to care about the common good?





Not being a sociopath, thats one reason to care about other people. If you want to remain selfish then you could realize that your prosperity is the product of billions of people both currently and throughout history working to develop the technology and culture which enables people like you to get on the internet and espouse the virtues of selfishness. You could live alone without a single thing given to you by society, naked in the wild with no knowledge, and you wouldn't last a week.


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Edited by NortonStPhallus (02/06/11 10:18 AM)


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #13914824 - 02/06/11 11:01 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

And what makes you assume I was talking about any of these?
What if a society is obsessed with safety and security, and, in taking care of those needs, it supresses the freedom of certain individuals who don't value safety at any cost so much?
One doesn't have to be a socipath in order to put more emphasis on one's personal needs rather than the needs of a collective. We all put emphasis on our interests only that some like to make it seem that they aren't doing it. Some people have developed a better ability to reason and think in terms of consequences. Those people might be more able to see the benefits of compassion, but this doesn't mean they're not selfish anymore. It only means that they can see the bigger picture and realize that they can still get the things they need without having to willingly produce damage to other people. But this is just a matter of prioritizing and being able to find alternate solutions for the same problem. Similarly, those who harm other people just so they can get ahead in life, might do so because intelectually they can't think of any other way of getting what they need.


--------------------
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
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Safe in your soul
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #13914943 - 02/06/11 11:42 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
And what makes you assume I was talking about any of these?
What if a society is obsessed with safety and security, and, in taking care of those needs, it supresses the freedom of certain individuals who don't value safety at any cost so much?




You are talking about the common good, you just value freedom over security.

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
One doesn't have to be a socipath in order to put more emphasis on one's personal needs rather than the needs of a collective. We all put emphasis on our interests only that some like to make it seem that they aren't doing it.




Putting emphasis on our own interests and "not caring about that crap" aren't the same, you implied you don't care at all about the common good-- that you just don't care at all about other people.

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Some people have developed a better ability to reason and think in terms of consequences. Those people might be more able to see the benefits of compassion, but this doesn't mean they're not selfish anymore. It only means that they can see the bigger picture and realize that they can still get the things they need without having to willingly produce damage to other people. But this is just a matter of prioritizing and being able to find alternate solutions for the same problem. Similarly, those who harm other people just so they can get ahead in life, might do so because intelectually they can't think of any other way of getting what they need.




I dont agree that empathy/compassion can only be reached through the intellectual conclusion that they are beneficial to the self, though that certainly is one way. I think compassion is a more fundamental human instinct than you are suggesting, though its true that the instinct is less powerful when the suffering of others is distant. You can argue that the instinct to be compassionate in humans is biologically selfish(we are only compassionate because we have evolved to live in societys, to improve our chance of spreading our genes) this is probably quite true, but IMO it diminishes the actual subjective experience of compassion, which is one of valuing another's interests almost or as much as your own.


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13915076 - 02/06/11 12:23 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

curious mouse said:
Any trade pays better than what?




Most desk jobs.  Fuck me, follow along in your own thread at least.
Quote:



how did the govt. coerce them to lend out risky loans?




CRA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, bogus discrimination lawsuits.  The whole routine is not for here and has been explained several times in other appropriate forums.




sounds like you are trying to pin the whole crises on the govt. and not willing to admit that free-markets, given a supposed unbridled human nature, create mechanisms that can cause the whole system to fail.




There never was a free market.  For the reasons cited above.:facepalm:
Quote:



do you not think that the powers that be, in the free-markets, are not the puppeteers behind politics.




No.  What free markets?  They don't fucking exist.
Quote:



they want the monetary policy to go exactly as it's been going....because they set it.




Not really.  They don't really care what the rules are.  Here's an ugly truth for most of you.  The mass of business people is smarter than the politicians and the electorate and no matter what the politicians and the electorate do they will win.  You can make any laws you want and they will still beat you.  Every fucking time.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #13915101 - 02/06/11 12:33 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NortonStPhallus said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

curious mouse said:
there are most certainly collective needs...the need for security, stability, and a functioning economy.




But maybe I don't care about that crap. And, if I don't care, what's my motivation to care about the common good?





Not being a sociopath, thats one reason to care about other people. If you want to remain selfish then you could realize that your prosperity is the product of billions of people both currently and throughout history working to develop the technology and culture which enables people like you to get on the internet and espouse the virtues of selfishness. You could live alone without a single thing given to you by society, naked in the wild with no knowledge, and you wouldn't last a week.



1.  Society doesn't give provide anything.  People do
2.  The vast majority of people have never contributed anything to the betterment of the human condition.  Not a single fucking thing.
3.  Every technological advancement has come as a result of special individuals, not the retarded grunts who grow their food or mow their lawns
4.  The single biggest motivator for any one of these people to contribute to the betterment of the human condition is their desire to better their own condition.  Why shouldn't they be rewarded.

If that's selfish what do you call the desire for people who contribute fuck all to be taken care of by people who do all?

The Kollektif must be subordinate to the individual.  The alternative is slavery and authoritarianism.


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OfflineNortonStPhallus
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13915279 - 02/06/11 01:27 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

NortonStPhallus said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

curious mouse said:
there are most certainly collective needs...the need for security, stability, and a functioning economy.




But maybe I don't care about that crap. And, if I don't care, what's my motivation to care about the common good?





Not being a sociopath, thats one reason to care about other people. If you want to remain selfish then you could realize that your prosperity is the product of billions of people both currently and throughout history working to develop the technology and culture which enables people like you to get on the internet and espouse the virtues of selfishness. You could live alone without a single thing given to you by society, naked in the wild with no knowledge, and you wouldn't last a week.



1.  Society doesn't give provide anything.  People do
2.  The vast majority of people have never contributed anything to the betterment of the human condition.  Not a single fucking thing.
3.  Every technological advancement has come as a result of special individuals, not the retarded grunts who grow their food or mow their lawns
4.  The single biggest motivator for any one of these people to contribute to the betterment of the human condition is their desire to better their own condition.  Why shouldn't they be rewarded.

If that's selfish what do you call the desire for people who contribute fuck all to be taken care of by people who do all?

The Kollektif must be subordinate to the individual.  The alternative is slavery and authoritarianism.





1. Society is just a collection of people.
2. The world needs ditch diggers.
3. Einstein wouldnt have been einstein by himself, without people growing that food he would have starved. Without Newton and Galileo and Euclid, he never would have had the theoretical tools needed to extend our knowledge of physics. Very few scientific discoverys are eureka moments, they much more often spring from the work of others in the past (yes! including the more mundane refinements done by less talented scientists). For someone arguing for individualism, you sure seem to have a misplaced disdain for the common man, if you had been born a royal in the middle ages, you would surely espouse the glorys of oligarchy.
4. I didn't say they shouldn't be rewarded, they should, but you are wrong about scientists, most scientists actually do work out of the love of their job, and for the betterment of humanity. If they only cared about their social standing, they would get much more standing being an actor or a fucking football player, how many famous modern scientists can you name? What about famous actors/sports players?

Being on welfare is a bit selfish I suppose, but its more pathetic than anything, I dont understand someone who hates such people more than just feeling sorry for them, its not glamorous to live in poverty.

The collective must be subordinate to the individual? Sounds cool, too bad its the exact opposite, even the most exceptional individuals have relied on society to feed them, to educate them, and to help their ideas get recognition. Of course society needs individuals to work, but individuals need society just to survive.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13915283 - 02/06/11 01:28 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I dont agree that empathy/compassion can only be reached through the intellectual conclusion that they are beneficial to the self, though that certainly is one way.




I didn't say it was the only way to attain compassion. It does however help with maintaining it in situations in which otherwise one would have the impulse of dropping it. And since we are talking about the interests of a community with conflicting interests, I think it's safe to say that one needs that kind of insight in order to be able to keep being compassionate.

Quote:

You can argue that the instinct to be compassionate in humans is biologically selfish(we are only compassionate because we have evolved to live in societys, to improve our chance of spreading our genes) this is probably quite true




I am not arguing any of these. To me, it seems more likely that our need for compassion and other human contact has driven us to live in groups instead of living isolated.

Quote:

but IMO it diminishes the actual subjective experience of compassion, which is one of valuing another's interests almost or as much as your own.




And the objective view of compassion says anything different? :confused: The objective perspective is merely observing how the whole process takes place, including some peoples' needs to value someone else's interests almost as much as their own.


--------------------
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OfflineNortonStPhallus
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #13915311 - 02/06/11 01:35 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I was only responding to the view that compassion is biologically selfish.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13915323 - 02/06/11 01:37 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
i don't think a truly free market could ever work.



Quote:

curious mouse said:
work would be...to accomplish what it sets out to accomplish.




So why in your opinion would a free market not be able to accomplish what it sets out to accomplish?


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #13915331 - 02/06/11 01:39 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NortonStPhallus said:
I was only responding to the view that compassion is biologically selfish.




And it isn't? Doesn't it come from a personal need that needs to be satisfied?


--------------------
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OfflineNortonStPhallus
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #13915358 - 02/06/11 01:45 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Well some people would argue that having compassion is advantageous because it increases the ability of your "selfish gene" to be passed on.


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #13915375 - 02/06/11 01:47 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Some people might. But what does all this have to do with this discussion?


--------------------
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And never known your face
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: MushroomTrip] * 1
    #13915482 - 02/06/11 02:09 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I was just clarifying what I said in an earlier post, at this point it is indeed irrelevant because you already said that you dont hold the point of view that I was arguing against. This whole exchange has become rather silly. :bored:


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #13915511 - 02/06/11 02:16 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Then maybe stop saying irrelevant stuff like "some people might argue that compassion is important because it transmits the selfish gene... blah, blah", while expecting to not be asked what it had to do with the topic? :shrug:


--------------------
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
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OfflineNortonStPhallus
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #13915712 - 02/06/11 02:55 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I feel like ive been entraped, first you ask me about it then you berate me for responding, in the earlier post I only mentioned it to preemptively respond to an argument which I often hear made, can we please just move on with our lives? I don't think its an irrelevant issue, I only realized it was irrelevant in this instance because you weren't interested in making that argument.

edit- im feeling really stupid today, maybe that has something to do with this exchange  :stars:


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Edited by NortonStPhallus (02/06/11 02:59 PM)


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #13915810 - 02/06/11 03:14 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Dude, breathe. It seems that this is nothing more than a slight misunderstnading...


--------------------
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #13915845 - 02/06/11 03:21 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

:lol: im fine.


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: deCypher]
    #13916109 - 02/06/11 04:17 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

curious mouse said:
there are most certainly collective needs...the need for security, stability, and a functioning economy.




But maybe I don't care about that crap. And, if I don't care, what's my motivation to care about the common good?




i think you are lying or repressing something if you claim not care about that crap.

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

curious mouse said:
i don't think a truly free market could ever work.





Quote:

curious mouse said:
work would be...to accomplish what it sets out to accomplish.




So why in your opinion would a free market not be able to accomplish what it sets out to accomplish?




because human greed would pervert the system....drive out competition...and become a giant monopoly.


Edited by curious mouse (02/06/11 04:20 PM)


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13916194 - 02/06/11 04:37 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

curious mouse said:
there are most certainly collective needs...the need for security, stability, and a functioning economy.




But maybe I don't care about that crap. And, if I don't care, what's my motivation to care about the common good?




i think you are lying or repressing something if you claim not care about that crap.




I think I already explained what my statement in the rest of my posts in this thread.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13916268 - 02/06/11 04:53 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

curious mouse said:
i don't think a truly free market could ever work.





Quote:

curious mouse said:
work would be...to accomplish what it sets out to accomplish.




So why in your opinion would a free market not be able to accomplish what it sets out to accomplish?




because human greed would pervert the system....drive out competition...and become a giant monopoly.




I don't see the formation of a monopoly being a perversion of the system; rather it's the natural consequence of unrestricted commerce.  :shrug:


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #13916292 - 02/06/11 04:58 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

But it's evil!  :hissyfit:


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13916345 - 02/06/11 05:08 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
because human greed would pervert the system....drive out competition...and become a giant monopoly.



As government is a giant monopoly?


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13916371 - 02/06/11 05:11 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

NortonStPhallus said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

curious mouse said:
there are most certainly collective needs...the need for security, stability, and a functioning economy.




But maybe I don't care about that crap. And, if I don't care, what's my motivation to care about the common good?





Not being a sociopath, thats one reason to care about other people. If you want to remain selfish then you could realize that your prosperity is the product of billions of people both currently and throughout history working to develop the technology and culture which enables people like you to get on the internet and espouse the virtues of selfishness. You could live alone without a single thing given to you by society, naked in the wild with no knowledge, and you wouldn't last a week.



1.  Society doesn't give provide anything.  People do
2.  The vast majority of people have never contributed anything to the betterment of the human condition.  Not a single fucking thing.
3.  Every technological advancement has come as a result of special individuals, not the retarded grunts who grow their food or mow their lawns
4.  The single biggest motivator for any one of these people to contribute to the betterment of the human condition is their desire to better their own condition.  Why shouldn't they be rewarded.

If that's selfish what do you call the desire for people who contribute fuck all to be taken care of by people who do all?

The Kollektif must be subordinate to the individual.  The alternative is slavery and authoritarianism.




hey, can I employ you to come over and be my abusively sassy (dont worry im not hittin on you) motivational speaker at least 3x a week? as of late I am starting to lose touch after waking up so many days unemployed, out of school, and in my old room at my parents house :lol:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: andrewss]
    #13916403 - 02/06/11 05:17 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

It will probably go something like this:



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OfflineHippieChick8
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13916436 - 02/06/11 05:23 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

NortonStPhallus said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

curious mouse said:
there are most certainly collective needs...the need for security, stability, and a functioning economy.




But maybe I don't care about that crap. And, if I don't care, what's my motivation to care about the common good?





Not being a sociopath, thats one reason to care about other people. If you want to remain selfish then you could realize that your prosperity is the product of billions of people both currently and throughout history working to develop the technology and culture which enables people like you to get on the internet and espouse the virtues of selfishness. You could live alone without a single thing given to you by society, naked in the wild with no knowledge, and you wouldn't last a week.



1.  Society doesn't give provide anything.  People do
2.  The vast majority of people have never contributed anything to the betterment of the human condition.  Not a single fucking thing.
3.  Every technological advancement has come as a result of special individuals, not the retarded grunts who grow their food or mow their lawns
4.  The single biggest motivator for any one of these people to contribute to the betterment of the human condition is their desire to better their own condition.  Why shouldn't they be rewarded.

If that's selfish what do you call the desire for people who contribute fuck all to be taken care of by people who do all?

The Kollektif must be subordinate to the individual.  The alternative is slavery and authoritarianism.




If it wasn't for people who grow food, YOU wouldn't eat. 

Sure the inventors and scientists should be rewarded, but your definition of a reward is to receive millions of dollars a year more than the person who pick your tomatoes, and I don't think they are worth that many times more.

Part of bettering the human condition is finding ways for us all to get along better.  If more people could recognize that the vegetable pickers, the janitors, the ditch diggers, the child care workers, the CNAS, etc. all are worthy people who deserve at least a simple living, the world would be a better place.  If all the low wage earners were to disappear, YOU would not have your cushy little world filled with luxury and comfort, you know that don't you?  Do you think Bill Gates himself is going to personally assemble your next high speed computer?  Do you think a millionaire is going to change your sheets and bathe you if you end up in a nursing home?


Edited by HippieChick8 (02/06/11 05:25 PM)


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: HippieChick8]
    #13916465 - 02/06/11 05:30 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

If all the low wage earners were to disappear, YOU would not have your cushy little world filled with luxury and comfort, you know that don't you?




And if all the people who pay them for their work would dissapear, these people wouldn't work anymore. What's your point?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

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OfflineHippieChick8
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #13916481 - 02/06/11 05:35 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

If all the low wage earners were to disappear, YOU would not have your cushy little world filled with luxury and comfort, you know that don't you?




And if all the people who pay them for their work would dissapear, these people wouldn't work anymore. What's your point?




People worked, lived and played long before "bosses" were invented.  What's YOUR point?


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #13916485 - 02/06/11 05:36 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Her point is that hippies are groovy and the rest of us are "the man",


--------------------
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #13916502 - 02/06/11 05:40 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

It never ends with her.  She simply cannot grasp the fact that most people are easily replaceable, untalented, unintelligent and unwilling to put in the hard work necessary to make themselves special in some way.  Almost anybody can dig a ditch.  Almost nobody can play professional baseball.  Therein lies the problem.  Most people cannot accept the fact that they are completely ordinary, at best, and aren't really being helped much by being told that everybody is special.  Schools and parents who give awards for participating instead of excelling.  Sad really.  At least there remains a certain level of meritocracy in business.  Not perfect but better than in anything else except professional sports.


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: HippieChick8]
    #13916597 - 02/06/11 06:03 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

HippieChick8 said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

If all the low wage earners were to disappear, YOU would not have your cushy little world filled with luxury and comfort, you know that don't you?




And if all the people who pay them for their work would dissapear, these people wouldn't work anymore. What's your point?




People worked, lived and played long before "bosses" were invented.  What's YOUR point?




My point is that nobody is irreplaceable.
And btw, "bosses" existed ever since workers existed. There has always been demand and offer, under one form or another. There have always been people with more power than others. Paying for a job and getting paid for providing a service IS getting along.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineHippieChick8
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Registered: 06/25/09
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Loc: Texas
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13916614 - 02/06/11 06:05 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
It never ends with her.  She simply cannot grasp the fact that most people are easily replaceable, untalented, unintelligent and unwilling to put in the hard work necessary to make themselves special in some way.  Almost anybody can dig a ditch.  Almost nobody can play professional baseball.  Therein lies the problem.  Most people cannot accept the fact that they are completely ordinary, at best, and aren't really being helped much by being told that everybody is special.  Schools and parents who give awards for participating instead of excelling.  Sad really.  At least there remains a certain level of meritocracy in business.  Not perfect but better than in anything else except professional sports.




I received plenty of awards when I was in medical research, at both a fortune 500 pharmaceutical company and for the Food and Drug Administration. 

What you can't grasp is that the world needs "ordinary" people to do most of the work that needs to be done.  It takes all kinds, and we can't all be scientists and corporate executives.

I agree that the public school system has been "dumbed down" and maybe that is what you should be angry about.  But to be angry that not everyone can be or even wants to be an inventor or a CEO doesn't make sense.  Look what the media is pushing.  It is not "cool" to be smart, and it has not been for a long time now.

It is also ironic that someone who claims to be a multi millionaire is so unsatisfied.  That confirms for me that money does not bring satisfaction.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: HippieChick8]
    #13916632 - 02/06/11 06:09 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I received plenty of awards when I was in medical research, at both a fortune 500 pharmaceutical company and for the Food and Drug Administration.




Good, it means that you participated.

Quote:

It is also ironic that someone who claims to be a multi millionaire is so unsatisfied.  That confirms for me that money does not bring satisfaction.




Sure, if someone is able to point out the flaws in something, it means they're unhappy.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: HippieChick8]
    #13916645 - 02/06/11 06:12 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

It is also ironic that someone who claims to be a multi millionaire is so unsatisfied.  That confirms for me that money does not bring satisfaction.

You continue to amaze me.  Just because some people who are rich are not happy does not mean that money does not bring satisfaction.  I'm very satisfied with my money.  I mean compared to the alternative.  Were I to get another 20 million I would be even more satisfied and I'm sure it would increase my enjoyment of life.  All wealth is on a continuum.  You would be considered rich by most standards in the world. Any your constant whining and complaining about those who have more shows to me your vise like attachment to money. And it's not making you very happy.  I suggest leaving the farm and living  naked in the wild.  (Send photos) :whacker:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: HippieChick8]
    #13916665 - 02/06/11 06:16 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

HippieChick8 said:


It is also ironic that someone who claims to be a multi millionaire is so unsatisfied.  That confirms for me that money does not bring satisfaction.




Where did I claim to be a multimillionaire?  Damn gummint takes most of it away.

I am quite satisfied.  I post here to educate and inform, to warn all the little children the dangers of the Kollektif and the value of self sufficiency.  Self sufficiency does not mean that you grow your own fucking food.  It means you earn what you get, that it isn't given to you by some paternalistic suffocating life destroying entity.

There can be no self respect for the dependent.  And no, paying somebody to grow food is not dependency.  zappa fuck


--------------------


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Offline4896744
Small Town Girl
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13916839 - 02/06/11 07:05 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

If it wasn't for people who grow food, YOU wouldn't eat. 

Sure the inventors and scientists should be rewarded, but your definition of a reward is to receive millions of dollars a year more than the person who pick your tomatoes, and I don't think they are worth that many times more.

Part of bettering the human condition is finding ways for us all to get along better.  If more people could recognize that the vegetable pickers, the janitors, the ditch diggers, the child care workers, the CNAS, etc. all are worthy people who deserve at least a simple living, the world would be a better place.  If all the low wage earners were to disappear, YOU would not have your cushy little world filled with luxury and comfort, you know that don't you?  Do you think Bill Gates himself is going to personally assemble your next high speed computer?  Do you think a millionaire is going to change your sheets and bathe you if you end up in a nursing home?





You speak of reward as if it is some compensation based on a system of morality. This is a farce. Most people with the skills to make money aren't going to give a shit about the "general human condition" or some other lovey dovey bulllshit.

It seems that you have no understanding of economics. The driving force behind prices is scarcity, and a capitalist/price-based system has been shown to be the most efficient method of distributing resources by far. To give out wages "fairly" in a way which you would like requires a centralized economy. What this does is remove the "natural selection" that exists in the free market bussiness world. With no natural selection you get oversized and retarded monstrosities who have no idea how to take care of themselves for they are never threatened.

I would think someone who claims to like nature so much would see how domination of the weak is necessary to a healthy system.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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Offlineandrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,722
Loc: ohio
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #13916945 - 02/06/11 07:29 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
It will probably go something like this:






:datass:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
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Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: andrewss]
    #13917062 - 02/06/11 07:51 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

:Awemazing:



:chicken:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: Poid] * 1
    #13917072 - 02/06/11 07:53 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

:wexican:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: Icelander]
    #13917308 - 02/06/11 08:45 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It is also ironic that someone who claims to be a multi millionaire is so unsatisfied.  That confirms for me that money does not bring satisfaction.

You continue to amaze me.  Just because some people who are rich are not happy does not mean that money does not bring satisfaction.  I'm very satisfied with my money.  I mean compared to the alternative.  Were I to get another 20 million I would be even more satisfied and I'm sure it would increase my enjoyment of life.  All wealth is on a continuum.  You would be considered rich by most standards in the world. Any your constant whining and complaining about those who have more shows to me your vise like attachment to money. And it's not making you very happy.  I suggest leaving the farm and living  naked in the wild.  (Send photos) :whacker:




Quote:

People say money doesn't buy happiness. Except, according to a new study from Princeton University's Woodrow Wilson School, it sort of does — up to about $75,000 a year. The lower a person's annual income falls below that benchmark, the unhappier he or she feels. But no matter how much more than $75,000 people make, they don't report any greater degree of happiness.



http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2016291,00.html


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #13917341 - 02/06/11 08:53 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I'm way below that benchmark but my sister and brother in law do  75 each easily.  They seem mostly miserable and I'm a happy go lucky fool. 

Give me the next million however and I'm sure I'll use it in ways that make me happier.  I want a small ranch with a very productive trout stream on it.  I'll fish every day and be happier for it.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Registered: 05/21/02
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13917475 - 02/06/11 09:21 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
Emma Goldman wrote in criticism of individualism:

‘Rugged individualism’ has meant all the ‘individualism’ for the masters, while the people are regimented into a slave caste to serve a handful of self-seeking ‘supermen.’…Their ‘rugged individualism’ is simply one of the many pretenses the ruling class makes to mask unbridled business and political extortion.”




funny thing is that the "masters" always succeed in proving this claim to be false.. but in doing so they always prove it to be true...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (02/06/11 09:42 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: Annapurna1]
    #13917561 - 02/06/11 09:38 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

as with any addiction, if money becomes an addiction it can ruin a person. I'm sure there's lots of that out there.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineHippieChick8
seeker of justice
Female


Registered: 06/25/09
Posts: 869
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: Icelander]
    #13922420 - 02/07/11 07:45 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It is also ironic that someone who claims to be a multi millionaire is so unsatisfied.  That confirms for me that money does not bring satisfaction.

You continue to amaze me.  Just because some people who are rich are not happy does not mean that money does not bring satisfaction.  I'm very satisfied with my money.  I mean compared to the alternative.  Were I to get another 20 million I would be even more satisfied and I'm sure it would increase my enjoyment of life.  All wealth is on a continuum.  You would be considered rich by most standards in the world. Any your constant whining and complaining about those who have more shows to me your vise like attachment to money. And it's not making you very happy.  I suggest leaving the farm and living  naked in the wild.  (Send photos) :whacker:




I should have said money in excess of what I need will not bring me more satisfaction.  I know I am rich in many ways.  Why is it so wrong to want EVERYONE who is willing to work full time to have food, shelter and the basic necessities?

I am worried about a further economic collapse in this country.  Acquiring a few country skills helps me to feel secure more so than money in a bank, which can be taken away or deemed worthless in a severe economic collapse.  Do you realize everything of value can be taken away from you except your knowledge and skills?


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OfflineHippieChick8
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Registered: 06/25/09
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Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13922630 - 02/07/11 08:11 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

HippieChick8 said:


It is also ironic that someone who claims to be a multi millionaire is so unsatisfied.  That confirms for me that money does not bring satisfaction.




Where did I claim to be a multimillionaire?  Damn gummint takes most of it away.

I am quite satisfied.  I post here to educate and inform, to warn all the little children the dangers of the Kollektif and the value of self sufficiency.  Self sufficiency does not mean that you grow your own fucking food.  It means you earn what you get, that it isn't given to you by some paternalistic suffocating life destroying entity.

There can be no self respect for the dependent.  And no, paying somebody to grow food is not dependency.  zappa fuck




You mentioned you were in the top 5% financially.  Don't you have to be a multimillionaire to be in the top 5%? 

I know we are all dependent on each other in some way.  No man (or woman) is an island.  But growing some of our own food is like a form of insurance against an economic disaster and is also healthy, satisfying and sometimes even challenging.  You would be surprised at some of the obstacles that come up.

I agree with you that mediocrity is prevalent in the U.S. today.  Academic achievement is not heavily valued, although we give it lip service.  Sports, fashion, appearance, sexiness, entertainment, high tech gadgets and superficiality of any kind are the things that are valued in this country.  So who is to blame? That reminds me of something:

If lust and hate is the candy
If love and blood tastes so sweet
then we give 'em what they want.

So their eyes are growing hazy
'cos they wanna turn it on,
so their minds are soft and lazy.
Well... who do you wanna blame?


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: HippieChick8]
    #13922685 - 02/07/11 08:19 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

HippieChick8 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

HippieChick8 said:


It is also ironic that someone who claims to be a multi millionaire is so unsatisfied.  That confirms for me that money does not bring satisfaction.




Where did I claim to be a multimillionaire?  Damn gummint takes most of it away.

I am quite satisfied.  I post here to educate and inform, to warn all the little children the dangers of the Kollektif and the value of self sufficiency.  Self sufficiency does not mean that you grow your own fucking food.  It means you earn what you get, that it isn't given to you by some paternalistic suffocating life destroying entity.

There can be no self respect for the dependent.  And no, paying somebody to grow food is not dependency.  zappa fuck




You mentioned you were in the top 5% financially.  Don't you have to be a multimillionaire to be in the top 5%?




Not even close.  I also live in one of the most expensive areas of the country.  If we lived in Iowa we would be rich rich rich.  But we don't.  And then there is college.  Oy. 
Quote:



I know we are all dependent on each other in some way.  No man (or woman) is an island.  But growing some of our own food is like a form of insurance against an economic disaster and is also healthy, satisfying and sometimes even challenging.  You would be surprised at some of the obstacles that come up.




It is not a possibility here nor will it be of much use to you in whatever imaginary apocalypse scenario you have created. 
Quote:



I agree with you that mediocrity is prevalent in the U.S. today.  Academic achievement is not heavily valued, although we give it lip service.  Sports, fashion, appearance, sexiness, entertainment, high tech gadgets and superficiality of any kind are the things that are valued in this country.  So who is to blame? That reminds me of something:

If lust and hate is the candy
If love and blood tastes so sweet
then we give 'em what they want.

So their eyes are growing hazy
'cos they wanna turn it on,
so their minds are soft and lazy.
Well... who do you wanna blame?




Mediocrity is always prevalent.  That's why they call it average.  Most people are within 1 standard deviation either way of the norm on every measure.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: HippieChick8]
    #13924292 - 02/07/11 11:51 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

HippieChick8 said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
It is also ironic that someone who claims to be a multi millionaire is so unsatisfied.  That confirms for me that money does not bring satisfaction.

You continue to amaze me.  Just because some people who are rich are not happy does not mean that money does not bring satisfaction.  I'm very satisfied with my money.  I mean compared to the alternative.  Were I to get another 20 million I would be even more satisfied and I'm sure it would increase my enjoyment of life.  All wealth is on a continuum.  You would be considered rich by most standards in the world. Any your constant whining and complaining about those who have more shows to me your vise like attachment to money. And it's not making you very happy.  I suggest leaving the farm and living  naked in the wild.  (Send photos) :whacker:




I should have said money in excess of what I need will not bring me more satisfaction.  I know I am rich in many ways.  Why is it so wrong to want EVERYONE who is willing to work full time to have food, shelter and the basic necessities?

I am worried about a further economic collapse in this country.  Acquiring a few country skills helps me to feel secure more so than money in a bank, which can be taken away or deemed worthless in a severe economic collapse.  Do you realize everything of value can be taken away from you except your knowledge and skills?





What you need?  How do you determine that? Do you get to determine that for everyone else?  There's nothing to be done about the grotesquely rich. That's what they care about for whatever reason. What you continually miss is the fact that you can't do anything about them. It's human nature for the majority of humanity. Money means security and for some too much is never enough. So the fuck what?

And if you are willing to work and have some needed skills then yes it would be great if you could find a job and feed yourself.  Most who do can.  Life isn't perfect dear and you keep thinking you can achieve that.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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