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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: Icelander]
    #13906424 - 02/04/11 07:25 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

what's with making one man or woman a boss?

how about a collaborated effort in how to efficiently distribute recourses. the groups should be localized and small. and provide for many of their needs with out having to waste resources shipping things across the world.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse] * 1
    #13906447 - 02/04/11 07:29 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

How about anything but what actually is?:shrug: Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's going to change.  Most people love having a boss who takes responsibility even though they bitch about it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineHippieChick8
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13906509 - 02/04/11 07:43 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
and back to my main point.

economic inequality reduces social cohesion and increases social unrest.

while i understand your point zappa....isn't there a point where the inequality can turn dangerous for both parties?




I hear Egypt is becoming a dangerous place...


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse] * 1
    #13906578 - 02/04/11 07:56 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I think the data would tend to show that suicide is more prevalent in individualistic societies than in more communitarian ones.  Individualism tends to leave people feeling isolated and without a sense of purpose.  I think the practice of psychotherapy is largely the result of an individualistic society.  I would wager that such therapy is much less common in Catholic or East Asian cultures than in Protestant countries where individualism reigns.  In America, neighbors often don't know each other and talk to one another.  Some cultures would be appalled that people in our culture would leave their children in day care while they go off to work.

I think there are advantages to individualism as well.  In communitarian societies, there is a greater expectation to follow in your family's footsteps, and less ability to break out of that mold and create your own future.  And yet, that seems to go hand-in-hand with the isolation I mentioned.  It's up to you to create your own destiny, and if you can't get ahead in the rat race, you're considered a failure.

Perhaps I'm deviating from much of the discussion here over individualism vs. collectivism in the political sphere, and instead discussing individualist versus communitarian cultures.  I think there is an important distinction there.  I mentioned Catholicism and Protestantism, and I do think that Catholic cultures tend to be more communitarian while Protestant cultures tend to be more individualist.  And yet, that doesn't necessarily translate into economic policy.  Sweden has a much larger welfare state than Italy, and yet that country is historically Lutheran.  Moreover, I think that because of different economic policies, some people are quick to try to point out cultural differences between the US and Canada.  I call bullshit.  Canadian and American culture are virtually identical.  The difference that does exist between the two countries is largely a result of the political differences, not the cause of them.

So anyway, I think our culture could use a little more communitarianism, but it ought not to lose sight of the virtues of individualism as well.


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13906586 - 02/04/11 07:58 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Why?  Because you want more?



I have minimal needs that need to be met. I'm frugal....




Good for you.  Now stop whining.
Quote:



Quote:


Hard labor does pay better than most desk jobs.  At least if you actually learn a skill.


Can you give an example?




Just about any trade pays better.  Plumber carpenter electrician.
Quote:


Quote:


Tough.  What are you?  The pay police?  People get paid based on their relative ability, scarcity (or glut) of that ability and demand for their services.



i'm saying people are being paid beyond their ability. financial markets went into bad shape. yet they were still giving ridiculously high bonuses congratulating them on a job well done.




Financial markets went into bad shape because the government coerced banks into lending to bums who, naturally, didn't pay the money back.  If anybody's pay should be cut it should be people who work for the government.  If Goldman says this guy is worth X dollars to them then he is worth X dollars to them.  It isn't your fucking money to worry about.  You won't make one extra dime if he makes less.  I might make less, though, because they are the people who hire me.  And my crew.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: Silversoul]
    #13906587 - 02/04/11 07:58 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I think the data would tend to show that suicide is more prevalent in individualistic societies than in more communitarian ones.  Individualism tends to leave people feeling isolated and without a sense of purpose.  I think the practice of psychotherapy is largely the result of an individualistic society.  I would wager that such therapy is much less common in Catholic or East Asian cultures than in Protestant countries where individualism reigns.  In America, neighbors often don't know each other and talk to one another.  Some cultures would be appalled that people in our culture would leave their children in day care while they go off to work.

I think there are advantages to individualism as well.  In communitarian societies, there is a greater expectation to follow in your family's footsteps, and less ability to break out of that mold and create your own future.  And yet, that seems to go hand-in-hand with the isolation I mentioned.  It's up to you to create your own destiny, and if you can't get ahead in the rat race, you're considered a failure.

Perhaps I'm deviating from much of the discussion here over individualism vs. collectivism in the political sphere, and instead discussing individualist versus communitarian cultures.  I think there is an important distinction there.  I mentioned Catholicism and Protestantism, and I do think that Catholic cultures tend to be more communitarian while Protestant cultures tend to be more individualist.  And yet, that doesn't necessarily translate into economic policy.  Sweden has a much larger welfare state than Italy, and yet that country is historically Lutheran.  Moreover, I think that because of different economic policies, some people are quick to try to point out cultural differences between the US and Canada.  I call bullshit.  Canadian and American culture are virtually identical.  The difference that does exist between the two countries is largely a result of the political differences, not the cause of them.

So anyway, I think our culture could use a little more communitarianism, but it ought not to lose sight of the virtues of individualism as well.




Excellent post.  But if you had to pick, would you live in a communitarian or individualistic society?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: deCypher]
    #13906604 - 02/04/11 08:02 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Excellent post.  But if you had to pick, would you live in a communitarian or individualistic society?



In good times, I'd say individualist.  In bad times, I'd say communitarian.  So right now I'd probably say communitarian.


--------------------


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13906639 - 02/04/11 08:08 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Any trade pays better than what?

how did the govt. coerce them to lend out risky loans?


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Offline4896744
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13906647 - 02/04/11 08:09 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Why?  Because you want more?
Quote:


I have minimal needs that need to be met. I'm frugal....

Quote:


Hard labor does pay better than most desk jobs.  At least if you actually learn a skill.


Can you give an example?
Quote:


Tough.  What are you?  The pay police?  People get paid based on their relative ability, scarcity (or glut) of that ability and demand for their services.



i'm saying people are being paid beyond their ability. financial markets went into bad shape. yet they were still giving ridiculously high bonuses congratulating them on a job well done.




The problem is that I don't give a shit how you feel unless you are connected to me through a interpersonal relationship. I have no obligations to do anything, all communitarian ideology does is subvert my happiness to the will of the stupid.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13906720 - 02/04/11 08:22 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
Any trade pays better than what?




Most desk jobs.  Fuck me, follow along in your own thread at least.
Quote:



how did the govt. coerce them to lend out risky loans?




CRA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, bogus discrimination lawsuits.  The whole routine is not for here and has been explained several times in other appropriate forums.


--------------------


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13913901 - 02/06/11 03:41 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

curious mouse said:
Any trade pays better than what?




Most desk jobs.  Fuck me, follow along in your own thread at least.
Quote:



how did the govt. coerce them to lend out risky loans?




CRA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, bogus discrimination lawsuits.  The whole routine is not for here and has been explained several times in other appropriate forums.




sounds like you are trying to pin the whole crises on the govt. and not willing to admit that free-markets, given a supposed unbridled human nature, create mechanisms that can cause the whole system to fail.

do you not think that the powers that be, in the free-markets, are not the puppeteers behind politics.

they want the monetary policy to go exactly as it's been going....because they set it.


Edited by curious mouse (02/06/11 03:42 AM)


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13913971 - 02/06/11 04:02 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
they want the monetary policy to go exactly as it's been going....because they set it.




If monetary policy has been set then by definition isn't it no longer a free market?  :confused:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: deCypher]
    #13914023 - 02/06/11 04:21 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

i don't think a truly free market could ever work.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13914028 - 02/06/11 04:22 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

What standards are you judging "work" by?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: deCypher]
    #13914162 - 02/06/11 05:04 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

work would be...to accomplish what it sets out to accomplish.


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OfflineDiaboleros
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13914313 - 02/06/11 06:30 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Totally agreed with OP, I think.

It is indeed the individual that causes the downfall of society. As long as each of us desires to be "rich" and not realizes that rich is relative, what was rich 50 years ago is poor today, we will keep on consuming the whole planet until everything is gone. We are heading straight for doom. The illogical desire to be rich, is going to cause our down fall.

Rich is a relative term. The moment everyone gets rich, you suddnely become poor again, because rich is relative. So the whole cycle of trying to get rich is starting again. People will complain they are poor because they see people around them who are "richer" but in reality, these poor people are still rich. It just doesn't seem like it because of relativity.

Each one of us is right now living better than any king or emperor has ever lived in the history of mankind. Yet we are all whining like little bitches how hard life is etc.. Please, never in history, had any population had the opportunity for so much luxury, we can eat all the possible foods that exist from all over the world, we can watch all possible media we want, practically for free, we can access all information we want, for free.... Even with all this luxury, people are still unhappy, people still want more. So, this very unsatiable desire, to want more and more, is going to lead to the destruction of the planet.

It's not the goverment that is at fault, it is the hungry individual who is to blame here.  Sure, 1 person can't change the world, but we are not 1 person, we are 7 billion, we are the world. All it takes is for us to stop being greedy motherfuckers, and all problems would dissapear as snow before the sun.


Edited by Diaboleros (02/06/11 06:39 AM)


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse] * 1
    #13914562 - 02/06/11 09:05 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
there are most certainly collective needs...the need for security, stability, and a functioning economy.




But maybe I don't care about that crap. And, if I don't care, what's my motivation to care about the common good?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineNortonStPhallus
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #13914716 - 02/06/11 10:16 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

curious mouse said:
there are most certainly collective needs...the need for security, stability, and a functioning economy.




But maybe I don't care about that crap. And, if I don't care, what's my motivation to care about the common good?





Not being a sociopath, thats one reason to care about other people. If you want to remain selfish then you could realize that your prosperity is the product of billions of people both currently and throughout history working to develop the technology and culture which enables people like you to get on the internet and espouse the virtues of selfishness. You could live alone without a single thing given to you by society, naked in the wild with no knowledge, and you wouldn't last a week.


--------------------
:eatingout:


Edited by NortonStPhallus (02/06/11 10:18 AM)


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #13914824 - 02/06/11 11:01 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

And what makes you assume I was talking about any of these?
What if a society is obsessed with safety and security, and, in taking care of those needs, it supresses the freedom of certain individuals who don't value safety at any cost so much?
One doesn't have to be a socipath in order to put more emphasis on one's personal needs rather than the needs of a collective. We all put emphasis on our interests only that some like to make it seem that they aren't doing it. Some people have developed a better ability to reason and think in terms of consequences. Those people might be more able to see the benefits of compassion, but this doesn't mean they're not selfish anymore. It only means that they can see the bigger picture and realize that they can still get the things they need without having to willingly produce damage to other people. But this is just a matter of prioritizing and being able to find alternate solutions for the same problem. Similarly, those who harm other people just so they can get ahead in life, might do so because intelectually they can't think of any other way of getting what they need.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineNortonStPhallus
Male


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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #13914943 - 02/06/11 11:42 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
And what makes you assume I was talking about any of these?
What if a society is obsessed with safety and security, and, in taking care of those needs, it supresses the freedom of certain individuals who don't value safety at any cost so much?




You are talking about the common good, you just value freedom over security.

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
One doesn't have to be a socipath in order to put more emphasis on one's personal needs rather than the needs of a collective. We all put emphasis on our interests only that some like to make it seem that they aren't doing it.




Putting emphasis on our own interests and "not caring about that crap" aren't the same, you implied you don't care at all about the common good-- that you just don't care at all about other people.

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Some people have developed a better ability to reason and think in terms of consequences. Those people might be more able to see the benefits of compassion, but this doesn't mean they're not selfish anymore. It only means that they can see the bigger picture and realize that they can still get the things they need without having to willingly produce damage to other people. But this is just a matter of prioritizing and being able to find alternate solutions for the same problem. Similarly, those who harm other people just so they can get ahead in life, might do so because intelectually they can't think of any other way of getting what they need.




I dont agree that empathy/compassion can only be reached through the intellectual conclusion that they are beneficial to the self, though that certainly is one way. I think compassion is a more fundamental human instinct than you are suggesting, though its true that the instinct is less powerful when the suffering of others is distant. You can argue that the instinct to be compassionate in humans is biologically selfish(we are only compassionate because we have evolved to live in societys, to improve our chance of spreading our genes) this is probably quite true, but IMO it diminishes the actual subjective experience of compassion, which is one of valuing another's interests almost or as much as your own.


--------------------
:eatingout:


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