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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offline4896744
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #13905363 - 02/04/11 04:01 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NortonStPhallus said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

iThink said:
The best standard of living seems to come from a hybrid of individualism and collectivism, leaning heavily towards the individualist end of the spectrum.

I would also suggest that morality is no more than a product of evolution which holds us back on a personal level. I am not sure if you are wanting to get into that kind of discussion though.



Are you contending that social conventions are harmful?




Depends on how we define harmful. I would say that they can get in the way of your personal happiness, which is all that matters to me.





Its all well and good for you to adopt this philosophy of selfishness, but spread it society wide and one's self interest begins to stamp on another's.




Luckily, evolution made it impossible for most people to be completely selfish/amoral.


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Live your Life! :heart:


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OfflineNortonStPhallus
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: 4896744]
    #13905391 - 02/04/11 04:06 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Its not impossible, it just takes a serious scarcity of resources, prosperity makes kindness easy.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: 4896744]
    #13905394 - 02/04/11 04:07 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Ah yes, "equality" and the myths surrounding it.  No, not every one is equal.  That is purely a fiction adopted for legal purposes.  It is also, even in that realm, somewhat fictitious.  But it is complete nonsense in the real world.


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Offline4896744
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #13905406 - 02/04/11 04:08 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NortonStPhallus said:
Its not impossible, it just takes a serious scarcity of resources, prosperity makes kindness easy.




Good point.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13905433 - 02/04/11 04:11 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Ah yes, "equality" and the myths surrounding it.  No, not every one is equal.  That is purely a fiction adopted for legal purposes.  It is also, even in that realm, somewhat fictitious.  But it is complete nonsense in the real world.




All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.  :smirk:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineNortonStPhallus
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: deCypher]
    #13905445 - 02/04/11 04:14 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah its bullshit, I still prefer to assume equality until I have a good reason to prefer one person over another.


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13905725 - 02/04/11 05:01 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Ah yes, "equality" and the myths surrounding it.  No, not every one is equal.  That is purely a fiction adopted for legal purposes.  It is also, even in that realm, somewhat fictitious.  But it is complete nonsense in the real world.





this argument leaves out the nurture side of the nature vs. nurture debate.

also...if you're not careful with this idea...you may condone the breading of a race of laborers.


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Offline4896744
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13905775 - 02/04/11 05:10 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Ah yes, "equality" and the myths surrounding it.  No, not every one is equal.  That is purely a fiction adopted for legal purposes.  It is also, even in that realm, somewhat fictitious.  But it is complete nonsense in the real world.





this argument leaves out the nurture side of the nature vs. nurture debate.

also...if you're not careful with this idea...you may condone the breading of a race of laborers.




Why shouldn't I condone the "breeding* of a race of laborers"?


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13905777 - 02/04/11 05:10 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What do you mean by reciprocal?


Some are needs feed off of each other. With out each of us collectively taking part in society....you would not be able to meet your needs.
Quote:


Absolutely.  For instance I don't really think it is in my interest to supply you with anything at all.  You think exactly opposite.  Completely and perfectly opposed.  We may have some shared interests but by and large I believe we are very much apart.



i don't believe in anyone supplying anyone what they are not due. equal work equal pay. usually capital stock reaps 30% of profits..and labor takes 70%...the problem is that of that 70% a small majority are claiming it.
Quote:

Those are not collective needs.  Those are individual needs shared by many members of a group, though not necessarily all members of a group.  A collective does not have needs.  Nor should it.  It should exist solely to provide for the needs of the individual members.  Conflicts among the members are served by politics.  That is the primary function of politics, conflict resolution.



politics in a do as you please society as long as it benefits yourself becomes corrupt. i think there are basic human needs that we share collectively.

Quote:


Only the individual matters and he should be free to do whatever he sees fit so long as he does no harm to other individuals.  To yoke him to a collective is to subjugate and enslave him.  The individual dies so that the collective, an abstract concept, may thrive?  I don't fucking think so.  Never forget that the primary purpose of any collective is to improve the lot of the individuals in that collective.  Otherwise no individuals will stay in the collective except at gunpoint.  Ignoring the individual ensures the extinction of the collective.




what ever he sees fit as to not harm others.....do you not see that the poor or lower caste in this society are just as much being enslaved?


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OfflineNortonStPhallus
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: 4896744]
    #13905824 - 02/04/11 05:21 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

edit-- fuck it


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Edited by NortonStPhallus (02/04/11 05:24 PM)


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Offline4896744
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #13905841 - 02/04/11 05:23 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NortonStPhallus said:
Why should you do anything?




Because I feel like it.


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OfflineNortonStPhallus
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: 4896744]
    #13905858 - 02/04/11 05:26 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Damn you already responded, ninja edit failed. OK, so why suppress empathy, doesn't that make you feel like not being a selfish/amoral?


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: 4896744]
    #13905873 - 02/04/11 05:28 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Ah yes, "equality" and the myths surrounding it.  No, not every one is equal.  That is purely a fiction adopted for legal purposes.  It is also, even in that realm, somewhat fictitious.  But it is complete nonsense in the real world.





this argument leaves out the nurture side of the nature vs. nurture debate.

also...if you're not careful with this idea...you may condone the breading of a race of laborers.




Why shouldn't I condone the "breeding* of a race of laborers"?




i didn't say you shouldn't.

but i think most people would agree that this would be a very bad thing.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13905914 - 02/04/11 05:35 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Ah yes, "equality" and the myths surrounding it.  No, not every one is equal.  That is purely a fiction adopted for legal purposes.  It is also, even in that realm, somewhat fictitious.  But it is complete nonsense in the real world.





this argument leaves out the nurture side of the nature vs. nurture debate.

also...if you're not careful with this idea...you may condone the breading of a race of laborers.



It is irrelevant.  No amount of training will ever enable me to play CF for the Yankees  and no amount of training will make an idiot a surgeon.  And why would I breed a "race" of laborers?  They breed themselves.

Like I said, it is a legal fiction.  It has nothing to do with ability, which is massively unequal.


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13905945 - 02/04/11 05:41 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Ah yes, "equality" and the myths surrounding it.  No, not every one is equal.  That is purely a fiction adopted for legal purposes.  It is also, even in that realm, somewhat fictitious.  But it is complete nonsense in the real world.





this argument leaves out the nurture side of the nature vs. nurture debate.

also...if you're not careful with this idea...you may condone the breading of a race of laborers.



It is irrelevant.  No amount of training will ever enable me to play CF for the Yankees  and no amount of training will make an idiot a surgeon.  And why would I breed a "race" of laborers?  They breed themselves.

Like I said, it is a legal fiction.  It has nothing to do with ability, which is massively unequal.




i'm not saying we don't specialize....
i'm saying wage distribution should be more fair.

hard labor is just as taxing as sitting in an office looking over statistics (and equally necessary in producing the good or service).

i'm not sure some of the wages people make justify the relatively small investment in their own human capital.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: 4896744] * 1
    #13905999 - 02/04/11 05:52 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

curious mouse said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Ah yes, "equality" and the myths surrounding it.  No, not every one is equal.  That is purely a fiction adopted for legal purposes.  It is also, even in that realm, somewhat fictitious.  But it is complete nonsense in the real world.





this argument leaves out the nurture side of the nature vs. nurture debate.

also...if you're not careful with this idea...you may condone the breading of a race of laborers.




Why shouldn't I condone the "breeding* of a race of laborers"?





And what makes you think it hasn't already happened?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13906106 - 02/04/11 06:12 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:


i'm not saying we don't specialize....
i'm saying wage distribution should be more fair.




Why?  Because you want more?
Quote:



hard labor is just as taxing as sitting in an office looking over statistics (and equally necessary in producing the good or service).




Hard labor does pay better than most desk jobs.  At least if you actually learn a skill.
Quote:



i'm not sure some of the wages people make justify the relatively small investment in their own human capital.




Tough.  What are you?  The pay police?  People get paid based on their relative ability, scarcity (or glut) of that ability and demand for their services.


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13906365 - 02/04/11 07:12 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

and back to my main point.

economic inequality reduces social cohesion and increases social unrest.

while i understand your point zappa....isn't there a point where the inequality can turn dangerous for both parties?


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13906409 - 02/04/11 07:20 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Why?  Because you want more?
Quote:


I have minimal needs that need to be met. I'm frugal....

Quote:


Hard labor does pay better than most desk jobs.  At least if you actually learn a skill.


Can you give an example?
Quote:


Tough.  What are you?  The pay police?  People get paid based on their relative ability, scarcity (or glut) of that ability and demand for their services.



i'm saying people are being paid beyond their ability. financial markets went into bad shape. yet they were still giving ridiculously high bonuses congratulating them on a job well done.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The individualistic society erodes community and general well-being. [Re: curious mouse]
    #13906411 - 02/04/11 07:21 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Can you say French Revolution?  And then can you say, "here comes the new boss, same as the old boss"?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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