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Invisiblechodamunky
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Registered: 02/28/02
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Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people?
    #1388069 - 03/18/03 01:05 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I'm sick of hearing this as one of the excuses US wants to get rid of Saddam, I see this being used countlessly by US officials and people posting on this forum. This is to give you all another perspective on the incident.

-------------------------------------------------------

MARCH 11. Very little attention has been paid to Stephen Pelletiere?s op ed piece in the New York Times (Jan. 31, ?A War Crime or an Act of War?).

Pelletiere was the CIA?s senior political analyst on Iraq during the 1980s war between Iraq and Iran, and later served as a professor at the US Army War College (1988-2000).

His op ed piece attacks the theory that Saddam gassed the Kurds. You know, ?Saddam gassed his own people.? That oft-repeated charge that makes up a significant part of the administration?s argument for war now.

Pelletiere had access to a lot of the classified data that was generated around the Kurd matter. He was in charge of the 1991 Army probe that investigated the question: How would Saddam fight a war against the US?

The major gassing incident occurred in March 1988 at a town called Halabja. ?But the truth is,? Pelletiere writes, ?all we know for certain is that Kurds were bombarded with poison gas that day.? This occurred near the end of the Iraq-Iran war.

Pelletiere writes, ??immediately after the battle [at Halabja] the United States Defense Information Agency investigated and produced a classified report, which it circulated within the intelligence community on a need-to-know basis. That study asserted that it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas.?

Obviously, this report has been intentionally ignored by several presidents and their major mouthpieces.

Pelletiere goes on to write that both the Iraqis and the Iranian troops used gas at Halabja. ?The condition of the dead Kurds? bodies, however, indicated that they had been killed with a blood agent---that is, a cyanide-based gas---which Iran was known to have. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time.?

If Bush were simply saying that Saddam deserves to die because he used mustard gas, then Bush might want to mention, as well, that the US employed tons and tons of Agent Orange (a chemical, the last time I looked) in Vietnam.

Then Pelletiere raises and answers a very interesting question. Why was the battle of Halabja fought? ??Iraq has the most extensive river system in the Middle East?Iraq had built an impressive system of dams and river control projects, the largest being the Darbandikhan dam in the Kurdish area. And it was this dam the Iranians were seeking to take control of when they seized Halbja.?

Pelletiere points out that a water pipeline through Iraq ?could bring the waters of the Tigris and Euphrates south to the parched Gulf states, and by extension, Israel.?

To date that pipeline has not been built. But after Gulf War 2? Would Israel become one of the prime beneficiaries in the aftermath?

Remember, the charge that has been leveled at Saddam is, he gassed his own civilians. Pelletiere is offering evidence collected by US intelligence and military analysts that refutes that charge.

Bush, Powell, Blair, and the rest of the crew are brushing all this off without a glance.

JON RAPPOPORT www.stratiawire.com



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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people? [Re: chodamunky]
    #1388090 - 03/18/03 01:12 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Shhh, let them sleep... minds are made up, beliefs are established, the propaganda has worked it's magic, it's no time to bring facts into this.

"Some of us wake up, others roll over"
- Public Image Ltd. 'Warrior'



--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinegandallf206
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Re: You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people? [Re: Evolving]
    #1388144 - 03/18/03 01:37 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Nice post, though So -dam- insane should go , We should relie on the facts that are estabilished,not the properganda being speard.


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Re: You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people? [Re: gandallf206]
    #1388182 - 03/18/03 01:52 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Remember that US was a big supporter of Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war. This report was probably used to demonize the Iranians. US provided intelligence to the Iraqis. THis is how they avoided LOSING. Now we have to deal with the seeds we have sown


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people? [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1388264 - 03/18/03 02:33 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

i saw on the news videos of sadams peoples taking to the streets with big pictures of him, praising his leadership

if im not mistaken, mr bush claims that saddams people are afraid of him, and they <b>want</b> us to "free" them

whats so fuxed up about it, is i saw that on cnn

wtf

they need to monitor the propaganda machine betta




--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


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OfflineAngry Mycologist
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Re: You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people? [Re: chodamunky]
    #1388296 - 03/18/03 02:42 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Excellent. Thank you for posting that Choda. This is something I've read quite a few times. It's one of the main "reasons" we use for attacking Iraq, it's also quite sketchy.


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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InvisibleGabbaDj
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Re: You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people? [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1388325 - 03/18/03 02:54 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

The kurds had it comming... What would our goovernment do to California if is decided to work with N.Korea and help them attack the US Main Land..

Lets not forget why the Kurds were gased in the first place.


--------------------
GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG          C8.com                    http://www.beatsopjefiets.com/   


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people? [Re: GabbaDj]
    #1388399 - 03/18/03 03:20 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The kurds had it comming... What would our goovernment do to California if is decided to work with N.Korea and help them attack the US Main Land..





They wouldn't fucking gas it to death that's for sure.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Offlinerhizo
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Re: You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people? [Re: chodamunky]
    #1388497 - 03/18/03 03:50 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

good stuff. maybe some of the people here will stop and think(and hopefully do some research) before they regurgitate propaganda.


--------------------
An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people? [Re: rhizo]
    #1388512 - 03/18/03 03:56 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Why should they? chodamunky didn't.

Face it, nobody here knows shit.


--------------------


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Offlinerhizo
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Re: You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1388584 - 03/18/03 04:26 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Why should they? chodamunky didn't.




Maybe some will begin to question what they read by realizing that the most damaging evidence is just spin.

Quote:

Face it, nobody here knows shit.




well then work to change that. i may be one of the people who doesn't know shit, but i'm trying to find the facts and help spread them. we all need to learn and be more skeptical of what we're reading, people on *both* sides of the issue.


--------------------
An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.


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OfflineAngry Mycologist
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Re: You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1388606 - 03/18/03 04:32 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Face it, nobody here knows shit.



I second that (me too). It's fun to pretend to know though....maybe a bit futile?


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
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Re: You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1388694 - 03/18/03 04:56 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Why should they? chodamunky didn't.

I'm confused by what you mean. Are you saying I'm spreading propaganda or that I didn't do research or what? All I offered with this article is another side of the story, it could be inaccurate but I sure as hell don't see this perspective on TV.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people? [Re: chodamunky]
    #1389091 - 03/18/03 07:31 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I remember hearing daddy Bush at the time defending Saddam to the hilt saying there was no evidence it was Iraqi gas. The year after he gave Saddam a billion dollar loan.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people? [Re: chodamunky]
    #1389194 - 03/18/03 08:17 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

There's no doubt that Saddam deserves to be removed. But nobody can really beleive that he still posses a threat to anybody except to his own people. The attack on Kuwait was the biggest mistake he ever made, why would he repeat it?
And about killing his own people... it's very unlikely that he'd in his liftime kill as many Iraquis as will be killed by american troops.


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people? [Re: zeronio]
    #1389216 - 03/18/03 08:26 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

BTW chemical weapons (depleted uranium) were massively used in Iraq & Yugoslavia, but nobody cared until the peace keepers started to get ill.


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OfflineMeneerCactus
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Re: You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people? [Re: chodamunky]
    #1389313 - 03/18/03 09:01 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

? The Axis of Evil ? - The 50 FAQs
by Charles Sheketoff,

Executive Director Oregon Center for Public Policy PO

Box 7, Silverton, OR 97381 ? USA



Q1 :What percentage of the world's population does the U.S. have?

A1 :6%


Q2 :What percentage of the world's wealth does the U.S. have?

A1 :50%


Q3 :Which country has the largest oil reserves?

A3 :Saudi Arabia


Q4 :Which country has the second largest oil reserves?

A4 :Iraq


Q5 :How much is spent on military budgets a year worldwide?

A5 :$900+ billion


Q6 :How much of this is spent by the U.S.?

A6 :50%


Q7 : What percent of US military spending would ensure the essentials of life to everyone in the world, according to the UN?

A7:10% (that's about $40 billion, the amount of funding initially requested to fund the US retaliatory attack on Afghanistan).


Q8 :How many people have died in wars since World War II?

A8 :86 millions


Q9 :How long has Iraq had chemical and biological weapons?

A9 :Since the early 1980's.


Q10: Did Iraq develop these chemical & biological weapons on their own?

A10: No, the materials and technology were supplied by the US government, along with Britain and private corporations.


Q11: Did the US government condemn the Iraqi use of gas warfare against Iran?

A11: No



Q12: How many people did Saddam Hussein ( some say the Iranians ) kill using gas in the Kurdish town of Halabja in 1988?

A12: 5,000 +


Q13: How many western countries condemned this action at the time?

A13: 0 ( zero )


Q14: How many gallons of the gas ?Agent Orange? did America use in Vietnam?

A14: 17.000.000 ( millions )


Q15: Are there any proven links between Iraq and September 11th terrorist attack?

A15: No


Q16: What is the estimated number of civilian casualties in the 1st Gulf War?

A16: Between 35,000 and 300,000


Q17: How many casualties did the Iraqi military inflict on the western forces during the 1st Gulf War ?

A17: 0 ( zero )


Q18: How many retreating Iraqi soldiers were buried alive by U.S. >tanks with ploughs mounted on the front?

A18: 6,000


Q19: How many tons of depleted uranium were left in Iraq and Kuwait after the Gulf War?

A19: 40 tons


Q20: What according to the UN was the increase in cancer rates in Iraq between 1991 and 1994?

A20: 700%


Q21: How much of Iraq's military capacity did America claim it had destroyed in 1991?

A21: 80%


Q22: Is there any objective proof that Iraq plans to use its weapons for anything other than deterrence and self defense?

A22: No


Q23: Does Iraq present more of a threat to world peace now than 10 years ago?

A23: No


Q24: How many civilian deaths has the Pentagon predicted in the event of an attack on Iraq in 2002/3?

A24: 10,000 +


Q25: What percentage of these will be children?

A25: 50% and over


Q26: How many years has the U.S. engaged in air strikes on Iraq?

A26: 11 years


Q27: Were the U.S and the UK at war with Iraq between December 1998 and September 1999?

A27: No


Q28: How many pounds of explosives were dropped on Iraq between December 1998 and September 1999?

A28: 20.000.000 ( million )


Q29: How many years ago was UN Resolution 661 introduced, imposing strict sanctions on Iraq's imports and exports?

A29: 12 years


Q30: According to the UN, what was the child death rate in Iraq in 1989 (per 1,000 births)?

A30: 38


Q31: According to the UN, what was the estimated child death rate in Iraq in 1999?

A31: 131, that is an increase of 345%


Q32: How many Iraqis are estimated to have died by October 1999 as a result of UN sanctions?

A32: 1.5 millions


Q33: How many Iraqi children are estimated to have died due to sanctions since 1997?

A33: 750,000


Q34: Did Saddam order the United Nations? inspectors out of Iraq recently?

A34: No


Q35: How many inspections were there in November and December 1998?

A35: 300


Q36: How many of these inspections had problems?

A36: 5


Q37: Were the weapons inspectors allowed entry to the Ba'ath Security HQ?

A37: Yes


Q38: Who said that by December 1998, "Iraq had in fact, been disarmed to a level unprecedented in modern history."

A38: Scott Ritter, UNSCOM chief.


Q39: In 1998 how much of Iraq's post 1991 capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction did the UN weapons inspectors claim to have discovered and dismantled?

A39: 90%


Q40: Since November 2002, did the UNSCOM inspectors find any weapons of mass destruction?

A40: No


Q41: Since November 2002, did Iraq cooperate satisfactorily with the UN inspectors?

A41: MM. Hans Blix and Muhammad El-Barade? said ?yes?.


Q42: How many UN resolutions did Isra?l violate between 1948 and 1992?

A42: Over 65 +


Q43: How many UN resolutions on Israel did America veto between 1972 and 1990?

A43: 30 +


Q44: How many countries are officially and publicly known to have nuclear weapons?

A44: 8 ( USA, Russia, United Kingdom, France, China, India, Pakistan, Northern Korea )


Q45: How many nuclear warheads has Iraq got?

A45: 0 ( zero )


Q46: According to western experts, how many nuclear warheads does Israel have?

A46: Between 250 and 400


Q47: Did Isra?l ever announced publicly of being a nuclear power?

A47: No


Q48: How many nuclear warheads has US got?

A48: Over 10,000


Q49: Who is the only country to use nuclear weapons?

A49: The USA


Q50: Who said, "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter"?

A50: Martin Luther King, Jr



The United States Government will spend more on the military in fiscal year 2003, than all the rest of the countries on Earth combined.


Current expenditures are 437 billion and our past obligations are 339billion, this equals 776 billion.


Around 46% of the US Taxes go to the Military Industrial Complex http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm


This figure doesn't even begin to account for all of the off-budget, black projects, homeland security nor the 40+ billion the United States Government will spend on intelligence in 2003.


--------------------
"Millions of years of evolution just to .... light up a joint"


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OfflineJammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!

Registered: 11/05/00
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Re: You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people? [Re: GabbaDj]
    #1389417 - 03/18/03 09:57 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

"The kurds had it comming... What would our goovernment do to California if is decided to work with N.Korea and help them attack the US Main Land..




I'm guessing a sneek UN inspection followed by WW3.

So, ok....

I guess it's ok that he killed his own people..... kinda like america's civil war..


--------------------
>>Jammer>>


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people? [Re: Jammer]
    #1389617 - 03/19/03 12:50 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Q32: How many Iraqis are estimated to have died by October 1999 as a result of UN sanctions?

A32: 1.5 millions

Q24: How many civilian deaths has the Pentagon predicted in the event of an attack on Iraq in 2002/3?

A24: 10,000 +


So then after the regime change there will be no need for sanctions?

Sounds good.


--------------------


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InvisibleOctopusDr
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Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 1,598
Re: You mean Saddam DIDN'T gas his own people? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1405538 - 03/24/03 10:28 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"If Bush were simply saying that Saddam deserves to die because he used mustard gas, then Bush might want to mention, as well, that the US employed tons and tons of Agent Orange (a chemical, the last time I looked) in Vietnam. "

Agent Orange is an Herbicide


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