Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore Bulk Substrate

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5  [ show all ]
Offlinejimbotron
Patty-Cake Enthusiast
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 2,324
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
The Rape Caucus
    #13869334 - 01/29/11 01:18 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Alright, folks, there's a lot of problems facing America, so let's see what the newly minted Republican Tea Party has on the agenda. Let's not forget that they are 100% dedicated to jobs and fiscal discipline, and totally not the same old Christian whackjob Republican base, for reals.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/republican-plan-redefine-rape-abortion

Quote:

For years, federal laws restricting the use of government funds to pay for abortions have included exemptions for pregnancies resulting from rape or incest. (Another exemption covers pregnancies that could endanger the life of the woman.) But the "No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion Act," a bill with 173 mostly Republican co-sponsors that House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) has dubbed a top priority in the new Congress, contains a provision that would rewrite the rules to limit drastically the definition of rape and incest in these cases.

With this legislation, which was introduced last week by Rep. Chris Smith (R-N.J.), Republicans propose that the rape exemption be limited to "forcible rape." This would rule out federal assistance for abortions in many rape cases, including instances of statutory rape, many of which are non-forcible. For example: If a 13-year-old girl is impregnated by a 24-year-old adult, she would no longer qualify to have Medicaid pay for an abortion. (Smith's spokesman did not respond to a call and an email requesting comment.)

Given that the bill also would forbid the use of tax benefits to pay for abortions, that 13-year-old's parents wouldn't be allowed to use money from a tax-exempt health savings account (HSA) to pay for the procedure. They also wouldn't be able to deduct the cost of the abortion or the cost of any insurance that paid for it as a medical expense.




WOW.

Okay, so let me get this straight. Apparently Republicans have decided that there's a "loophole" in the laws permitting federal subsidies for abortions in cases of rape, because sometimes the rape isn't bad enough to justify it. Basically, if you are not beaten to a bloody pulp like in A Clockwork Orange, you are having that fucking baby, slut.

Tell you what. If you have some other interpretation of this law, I'd love to hear it. I'd also like to know what the fuck drives people to push this kind of thing?

On the other hand, feminazis bitch about porn, so both sides do it, or something.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: jimbotron]
    #13869875 - 01/29/11 07:57 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said:
Quote:

This would rule out federal assistance for abortions in many rape cases, including instances of statutory rape, many of which are non-forcible. For example: If a 13-year-old girl is impregnated by a 24-year-old adult, she would no longer qualify to have Medicaid pay for an abortion.








I'm good with that, the 24yo can pay for the abortion, if not, let the
parents of the 13yo pay, why should I be paying for the stupidity of
others when condoms are so damn cheap, statutory rape isnt something
pushed on someone that was unwilling, it's 2 willing participants and
is only 'rape' in name

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDoc_T
Random Dude
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado Flag
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: jimbotron]
    #13869876 - 01/29/11 07:59 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said: I'd also like to know what the fuck drives people to push this kind of thing?





Some people genuinely believe abortion is murder and act on that view. :shrug:


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Doc_T]
    #13870044 - 01/29/11 09:11 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Once again, jimbo believes that not paying for something is equivalent to forbidding it.  It makes me wonder if jimbo has ever actually supported himself.  It is the only possible explanation for his continued whining that the government should be responsible for paying for everything.  Let the fucking dumbasses pay for their own fucking abortion.  Or let the jimbos of the world pay for it.  There's nothing stopping you, jimbo.  Be a mensch if you want.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMutantBonobo
An Even Greater Ape
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/31/10
Posts: 223
Loc: The Congo
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13870183 - 01/29/11 09:45 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

3 to 1... make that 4 to 1.  All the respondents bring up valid points.


--------------------
Lois, this family believes in the Easter Bunny.  He died for our sins in that helicopter crash.  Now, if you wanna go to hell, that's fine, but don't drag the rest of us down with you like a mentally handicapped rooster.
- Peter Griffin (Family Guy)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinejimbotron
Patty-Cake Enthusiast
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 2,324
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: MutantBonobo]
    #13870435 - 01/29/11 10:46 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MutantBonobo said:
3 to 1... make that 4 to 1.  All the respondents bring up valid points.




Really?

Quote:

let the
parents of the 13yo pay... statutory rape isnt something
pushed on someone that was unwilling, it's 2 willing participants and
is only 'rape' in name




First we've got a defense of pedophilia.

Quote:

Some people genuinely believe abortion is murder and act on that view.




Then we've got an utter lack of compassion. Some people genuinely believe rape is a terrible thing. These Republicans clearly believe that their morality trumps everyone else's. Again - no one forces rape victims to have abortions, but Republicans want to deny them the choice.

Anyway, why have any rape exception at all, then? From what you're saying, if a 12-year old is beaten and drugged and impregnated by a 40-year-old, she is a murderer if she doesn't finish this life-ruining pregnancy (in the eyes of these people).

But why do they give her a free pass if she was beaten? Do they just think this slightly-less-extreme version of 'morality' is more palatable to the American public? You can't water down murder...

Quote:

Once again, jimbo believes that not paying for something is equivalent to forbidding it.




Not equivalent, but tantamount. Many Americans don't have $600.

It takes a truly sick fuck to force a rape victim to cough up money.

And despite all the talk about statutory rape, that's only part of what they're attacking. For example, if a girl is drugged unconscious and raped, Republicans think she should have to pay for it. For now, someone who's beaten unconscious and raped does not.

Can somebody explain the morality here? It's honestly a little opaque to me.

Quote:

3 to 1... make that 4 to 1.  All the respondents bring up valid points.




None of these respondents would ever get elected dog catcher with defenses like these. None have made a single positive argument for this bill; they've only given reasons why they think it isn't as bad as it appears to be.

Again, I gotta ask: why this and why now? I thought the Tea Party was serious about fixing things.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinejimbotron
Patty-Cake Enthusiast
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 2,324
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: jimbotron]
    #13870441 - 01/29/11 10:48 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Tell you what. Complete the following sentence.

"It is necessary, concerning federal funding of abortion, to redefine rape as 'forcible rape' because____"

Should be easy, right?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinejimbotron
Patty-Cake Enthusiast
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 2,324
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: jimbotron]
    #13870475 - 01/29/11 10:55 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The only one I can really come up with is "because otherwise sluts and whores will claim they were raped to get free abortions." Which is the 'loophole' I alluded to in the first place, and is a really horrible reason.

So somebody else figure it out.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: jimbotron]
    #13870525 - 01/29/11 11:10 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said:
Tell you what. Complete the following sentence.

"It is necessary, concerning federal funding of abortion, to redefine rape as 'forcible rape' because____"

Should be easy, right?




And it is.  I'm surprised that you are having a difficult time with this.  Unfortunately, the term "rape" has been watered down over the years to include things, such as consensual intercourse between two people that are underage.  Because of this, the lawmakers now find themselves in a position where they need to differentiate between traditional (forcible) rape and all of these other types of "rape" that have been pushed into the statutes over the years.  This isn't some nefarious plot by the evil Republicans nor is it a difficult concept for most people to grasp.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: jimbotron]
    #13870635 - 01/29/11 11:37 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said:
Quote:

let the
parents of the 13yo pay... statutory rape isnt something
pushed on someone that was unwilling, it's 2 willing participants and
is only 'rape' in name




First we've got a defense of pedophilia.





with convoluted logic like that, no wonder you stay confused

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Seuss]
    #13870931 - 01/29/11 12:52 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

jimbotron said:
Tell you what. Complete the following sentence.

"It is necessary, concerning federal funding of abortion, to redefine rape as 'forcible rape' because____"

Should be easy, right?




And it is.  I'm surprised that you are having a difficult time with this.  Unfortunately, the term "rape" has been watered down over the years to include things, such as consensual intercourse between two people that are underage.  Because of this, the lawmakers now find themselves in a position where they need to differentiate between traditional (forcible) rape and all of these other types of "rape" that have been pushed into the statutes over the years.  This isn't some nefarious plot by the evil Republicans nor is it a difficult concept for most people to grasp.





Bingo.

Especially when dealing with highly emotional issues such as sex crimes, it is especially important to be clear on what we're talking about.

Its so ridiculous now that people apparently equate the lack of legal consent, a moving target with no moral relevance per se, or perhaps lack of consent factually, as rape.  I've heard this explicitly claimed (that lack of consent is rape) by several people, and it is apparently taught at some college orientation sessions.  Hell, there's a regularly-posting member on the shroomery who got so upset when I observed the difference between a lack of consent legally and factually and the crime of rape that he started calling me names, implied I was like a rapist or somesuch silliness, and now ignores me.    Similarly.  I'm sure we've all heard fallacious repudiations of proponents of various legislation that equate the subject matter of the legislation discussed with the proponent's activities, moral charecter.  This kinda thing has a real potential to let unjust and wrongheaded legislation reamin for fear of criticism.

With these types of topics, we should be especially vigilant not to let the unpleasant subject matter or fear of guilt by association-style condemnation (you defend a distinction that may benefit someoneone, therefore you support that person's actions) stop logical discussion.

Personally I wish more federal legislation defined laws more clearly rather than referring to them in the oblique way they often do- which may leave it up to the state's quirks to decide whether a federal law applies in a given case.  I wonder if there's other mentions of rape in the federal law that should likewise have been corrected in this bill?  That's one valid criticism I could think of.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: jimbotron]
    #13870974 - 01/29/11 01:02 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I asked this before and I'll ask it again, jimbo.  Why don't you fucking pay for them?  Get the fuck out of my wallet and shake some moths out of yours and cough up the fucking cake.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineScavengerType
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Seuss]
    #13871191 - 01/29/11 02:02 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Unfortunately, the term "rape" has been watered down over the years to include things, such as consensual intercourse between two people that are underage.




Source?

I don't think that anyone should be made to have a baby at 13, which is actually what the implications of this reform are. It has harmful health implications for those individuals. Also, in Freakanomics the author claimed a clear link between access to abortion for those of little or no income and lower crime rates (Something that it supported and has been argued by others as well). The legislation is not just morally wrong-headed, but is also economically foolish as well.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13871309 - 01/29/11 02:27 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
Unfortunately, the term "rape" has been watered down over the years to include things, such as consensual intercourse between two people that are underage.




Source?

I don't think that anyone should be made to have a baby at 13, which is actually what the implications of this reform are. It has harmful health implications for those individuals.




Nobody is forbidding abortion.  In fact you and jimbo should finally make yourselves useful and establish a fund to provide abortions for indigent rape victims.

Abortion itself has harmful health implications.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenanomagnetic
cascadian
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/26/09
Posts: 218
Loc: The Rose City Flag
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13871395 - 01/29/11 02:46 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

jimbotron said:
Quote:

let the
parents of the 13yo pay... statutory rape isnt something
pushed on someone that was unwilling, it's 2 willing participants and
is only 'rape' in name




First we've got a defense of pedophilia.





with convoluted logic like that, no wonder you stay confused




Thirteen is a little young. It could definitely be considered pedophilia.

And statutory rape isn't meant to be "rape in name only." An adult often has power or authority over an adolescent. The statutory rape laws, fundamentally, criminalize abusing that relationship for sex.


--------------------
Being an ant is the worst mindfuck ever. They can never hold on to any memories, or come up with any real ideas, or even understand what the fuck is going on, ever.

The Century of the Self: Happiness Machines; The Engineering of Consent; There's a Policeman Inside All Our Heads, He Must be Destroyed; Eight People Sipping Wine in Kettering

Writing is perhaps the greatest of human inventions, binding together people, citizens of distant epochs, who never knew one another. Books break the shackles of time. ~carl sagan

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: nanomagnetic]
    #13871493 - 01/29/11 03:17 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

"Statutory" means, specifically, "by statute".  The law says it is so it is.

Some 13 year-olds are different from other 13 year-olds so sometimes it would be pedophilia and sometimes it would be ephebophilia, depending on just how developed they are.  I would think that a pregnant 13 year-old would involve the latter in most cases


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenanomagnetic
cascadian
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/26/09
Posts: 218
Loc: The Rose City Flag
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13871537 - 01/29/11 03:28 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, I think the majority of cases involving a 13-year-old would rightly fall under ephebophilia.

Quote:

"Statutory" means, specifically, "by statute".  The law says it is so it is.




That's definitely the title of the law, but the rationale is much less tautological.


--------------------
Being an ant is the worst mindfuck ever. They can never hold on to any memories, or come up with any real ideas, or even understand what the fuck is going on, ever.

The Century of the Self: Happiness Machines; The Engineering of Consent; There's a Policeman Inside All Our Heads, He Must be Destroyed; Eight People Sipping Wine in Kettering

Writing is perhaps the greatest of human inventions, binding together people, citizens of distant epochs, who never knew one another. Books break the shackles of time. ~carl sagan

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: nanomagnetic]
    #13871552 - 01/29/11 03:33 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

In past societies women married at that age.  I'm not supporting it, by any means, I'm just saying that whatever age that is selected is somewhat arbitrary.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenanomagnetic
cascadian
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/26/09
Posts: 218
Loc: The Rose City Flag
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13871591 - 01/29/11 03:39 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

All the social constructs tend to be pretty arbitrary.


--------------------
Being an ant is the worst mindfuck ever. They can never hold on to any memories, or come up with any real ideas, or even understand what the fuck is going on, ever.

The Century of the Self: Happiness Machines; The Engineering of Consent; There's a Policeman Inside All Our Heads, He Must be Destroyed; Eight People Sipping Wine in Kettering

Writing is perhaps the greatest of human inventions, binding together people, citizens of distant epochs, who never knew one another. Books break the shackles of time. ~carl sagan

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: nanomagnetic]
    #13871614 - 01/29/11 03:44 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The legal ones even more so.  Consider Roe v Wade.  Back it was originally decided Blackmun based his rationale for the defined dates on the viability of the fetus.  In the 40 years since the decision the viable age of a fetus has decreased quite a bit due to medical advances.  Yet the law remains unchanged. 

Lest anyone get the wrong idea I think Roe v Wade was a great piece of legislation.  Unfortunately it wasn't enacted by a legislature.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenanomagnetic
cascadian
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/26/09
Posts: 218
Loc: The Rose City Flag
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13871730 - 01/29/11 04:04 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I thought Roe v Wade gave a window on viability? Plus, I don't think viability has been in the discussion for some time now. It's all about murder, and rights, and personhood these days.


--------------------
Being an ant is the worst mindfuck ever. They can never hold on to any memories, or come up with any real ideas, or even understand what the fuck is going on, ever.

The Century of the Self: Happiness Machines; The Engineering of Consent; There's a Policeman Inside All Our Heads, He Must be Destroyed; Eight People Sipping Wine in Kettering

Writing is perhaps the greatest of human inventions, binding together people, citizens of distant epochs, who never knew one another. Books break the shackles of time. ~carl sagan

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: nanomagnetic]
    #13871755 - 01/29/11 04:07 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

He picked 6 months as a threshold for "only to save the mother" based on viability.

As to murder and all that the argument is no different today than it was then.  I know.  I was there.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenanomagnetic
cascadian
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/26/09
Posts: 218
Loc: The Rose City Flag
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13871822 - 01/29/11 04:18 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I don't know. The text of the decision seems to allow a cutoff range: twenty to twenty-eight weeks.


--------------------
Being an ant is the worst mindfuck ever. They can never hold on to any memories, or come up with any real ideas, or even understand what the fuck is going on, ever.

The Century of the Self: Happiness Machines; The Engineering of Consent; There's a Policeman Inside All Our Heads, He Must be Destroyed; Eight People Sipping Wine in Kettering

Writing is perhaps the greatest of human inventions, binding together people, citizens of distant epochs, who never knew one another. Books break the shackles of time. ~carl sagan

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13872192 - 01/29/11 05:23 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:

I don't think that anyone should be made to have a baby at 13, which is actually what the implications of this reform are.





no it's not, the implications of this legislation are that mom and dad need
to pay for the abortion because they're obviously such shitty parents they
couldnt teach their 13yo girl about birth control or abstinence, how is this
forcing a 13yo to have a kid?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: nanomagnetic]
    #13872211 - 01/29/11 05:26 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

nanomagnetic said:

Thirteen is a little young.





thirteen was an average age for marriage and child birth until the early 20th
century in this country, it's still normal in some parts of the world

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineScavengerType
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13872274 - 01/29/11 05:38 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I never said the implications are that all 13 year olds would be made to have a baby, but that some would. Incidentally your approach would render unable those most likely to have kids who are a drain on society to get an abortion. Invariably there is an implication here that some 13 year olds will not be able to get them.

The sums of cost here are inconsequential, the motivations of this reform are not financial but religious.

Also it's funny to see the same people here who wanted Assange to be extradited to Sweden (and then to the US) for banging without a condom, defending stat rape.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: nanomagnetic]
    #13872391 - 01/29/11 06:00 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The decision specifically dealt with when the state's interest in throwing people in jail and causing trouble was signifigant enough to surmount the patient's privacy interest in being not thrown in jail and troubled.  The different ranges were outlined and applicable to certain constitutional restrictions, i.e. after 6 months or so it wouldn't be unconstitutional per se to prohibit abortion of the fetus and throw everyone in jail and yada yada yada in the normal course.  In different circumstances, such as when the mother's right to life just narrowly wins out over the state's interest in screwing with people, the calculus is different.

Either way, the reasoning was pretty arbitrary, and as zappa notes, begs far more nuanced consideration with the changing realities than it will get.

Quote:

nanomagnetic said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

jimbotron said:
Quote:

let the
parents of the 13yo pay... statutory rape isnt something
pushed on someone that was unwilling, it's 2 willing participants and
is only 'rape' in name




First we've got a defense of pedophilia.





with convoluted logic like that, no wonder you stay confused




Thirteen is a little young. It could definitely be considered pedophilia.

And statutory rape isn't meant to be "rape in name only." An adult often has power or authority over an adolescent. The statutory rape laws, fundamentally, criminalize abusing that relationship for sex.




Nonsense and a perfect example of what Seuss refers to.

Statutory rape does not hing upon whether someone is an adult and the other party an adolescent who's relationship with the adult was abused for sex.  It is almost never of any relevance whatsoever- meerly a strict liability construction regardless of merit or harm in the act and an abuse of the term "rape".

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineScavengerType
Male User Gallery


Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: johnm214]
    #13874080 - 01/29/11 11:47 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Look, I'm not an expert on stat rape law in the US but I've never heard of minor on minor sex prosecution (ever anywhere), even in the most backwards of states.

like I said source?

I've heard of minors being charged with CP but that's different with regard to this discussion.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13875648 - 01/30/11 09:30 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
I never said the implications are that all 13 year olds would be made to have a baby, but that some would.




well guess what, some are already having knocked up and being 'made to have babies'

Quote:


Incidentally your approach would render unable those most likely to have kids who are a drain on society to get an abortion.




incorrect, it simply means they'd need to find another source for funding,
maybe they should try that 24yo they were fucking, I'm sure he'd love to
destroy the evidence of his crimes for only a few hundred bucks or maybe
they could get it from their parents, lord knows the parents should have
had that talk with their darling little debbie long before she got knocked
up but since they didnt, they now have to deal with the embarrassment of
their inaction as well

Quote:

Invariably there is an implication here that some 13 year olds will not be able to get them.




you mean like it is already, some 13yo girls are unable to get abortions
so it seems nothing actually changes, why should I be penalized for the
mistakes of others, let the parents deal with their problem children

Quote:

The sums of cost here are inconsequential, the motivations of this reform are not financial but religious.




well surely you have some actual evidence to back that up

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13875665 - 01/30/11 09:36 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
I never said the implications are that all 13 year olds would be made to have a baby, but that some would. Incidentally your approach would render unable those most likely to have kids who are a drain on society to get an abortion. Invariably there is an implication here that some 13 year olds will not be able to get them.




Like I said to jimbo, you pay for it.
Quote:



The sums of cost here are inconsequential, the motivations of this reform are not financial but religious.




This atheist says bullshit. 
Quote:



Also it's funny to see the same people here who wanted Assange to be extradited to Sweden (and then to the US) for banging without a condom, defending stat rape.




Nobody here is, as far as I can tell, defending statutory rape.  And that isn't what Asshole is accused of.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineScavengerType
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13877780 - 01/30/11 04:59 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I think you are missing something here prisoner, most people who are on medicare don't have a lot of money and will have difficulty getting the finances together for an abortion. The practical effect of this is that this bill and you in your support of it aim to strip these children of the rights of protection from statutory rape and it's physiological implications. Your proposed solution, by your own logic and admission would either not work (they would be forced to have a rape baby) or strip the child of the right to have their rapist charged. Basically you are saying that the laws of pedophilia should be enforced based on how much money the man or girl has. Not to mention that this would put people like this in a situation of having to claim falsely of rape in order to receive one. Would a hospital conducted rape examination be required to secure an abortion under these laws? Will real rape victims be denied if they lack this proof?

How much will all these added costs and social impacts add up compared to a relatively cheap medical procedure, even if you only look at the immediate future? It is not fiscally sound because before even looking at those added litigation and medical costs single mothers in many places automatically qualify for financial assistance if they have no source of income. They can in some cases receive higher than double the cost of an abortion in assistance for having a child in one month. I'm not sure about the US (varies from state to state) but in Canada these benefits are only terminated after two years. It would take an astronomically low number of these people applying for these benefits to actually save any money at all. That's ignoring those factors and the shear price that a child who grows up unwanted extorts on the social system in it's lifetime (for further info just read the beginning of Freakonomics). In effect you have to be out of your damn mind to think this will save any money whatsoever.

However it will prevent people who need them from getting abortions, a major goal of Catholics, fundamentalist Christians and other christian nutbags.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13877832 - 01/30/11 05:11 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Feel free to buy all the poor people abortions you want.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13878377 - 01/30/11 06:48 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
I think you are missing something here prisoner, most people who are on medicare don't have a lot of money and will have difficulty getting the finances together for an abortion.




why are 13yo girls on medicare, dont their parents work or are the parents
more parasites, dont their medicare parents teach them about birth control
and abstinence, are they refused the chance to learn it in schools by
their parents? I recall sex ed being taught in 5th grade when I was a kid and I live in the bible belt

what's cheaper, condoms or abortion?
what has a more lasting effect on a young girl, abortions or safe sex?

where should our focus be?

Quote:

The practical effect of this is that this bill and you in your support of it aim to strip these children of the rights of protection from statutory rape and it's physiological implications. Your proposed solution, by your own logic and admission would either not work (they would be forced to have a rape baby) or strip the child of the right to have their rapist charged.




again I believe you're confused

Quote:

Basically you are saying that the laws of pedophilia should be enforced based on how much money the man or girl has.




no, that seems to be your statement, of course if you can show me where I
made it, feel free to do so

Quote:

Will real rape victims be denied if they lack this proof?





why would a real rape victim not want to have a rapist prosecuted, why
would the parents of the 'victim' of statutory rape not want to have the
'rapist' prosecuted as well

Quote:

How much will all these added costs and social impacts add up compared to a relatively cheap medical procedure, even if you only look at the immediate future? It is not fiscally sound




you're right about one thing, state funded abortion isnt fiscally sound,
nor are social programs that allow for us to support 'breeders' that do
nothing more than increase their government benefit check through their
breeding programs


now why must you assume that just because I dont want to pay for someones
abortion that I must want them producing offspring, I'm all for throwing
them down a flight of stairs, call it punishment for making stupid
mistakes that they've surely already been warned against from various
sources including TV, billboards, school, parents, etc... maybe by the
second time they'll have learned a valuable lesson


Quote:

However it will prevent people who need them from getting abortions, a major goal of Catholics, fundamentalist Christians and other christian nutbags.




who needs an abortions more than they need to practice safe sex, if I make
a 'mistake', it comes out of my pocket, if you make a mistake, why should
I still have to pay for it, I had nothing to do with your improprieties

I see you're all about keeping women as uneducated fuck dolls that have as
many abortions as possible instead if educating them on the practice of
safe sex

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13879329 - 01/30/11 09:53 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

who needs an abortions more than they need to practice safe sex, if I make a 'mistake', it comes out of my pocket, if you make a mistake, why should I still have to pay for it, I had nothing to do with your improprieties




I'd much rather pay the cost of an abortion than the cost of raising another breeder's welfare project.  If a couple cannot afford an abortion, then there is a pretty good chance that they cannot afford to raise a child.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLarrythescaryrex
teardrop on the fire
Male User Gallery


Registered: 07/19/00
Posts: 11,004
Loc: further down the spiral
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Seuss]
    #13879365 - 01/30/11 10:02 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

interesting point, suess


--------------------
RIP Acidic_Sloth

Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Seuss]
    #13879385 - 01/30/11 10:05 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

who needs an abortions more than they need to practice safe sex, if I make a 'mistake', it comes out of my pocket, if you make a mistake, why should I still have to pay for it, I had nothing to do with your improprieties




I'd much rather pay the cost of an abortion than the cost of raising another breeder's welfare project.  If a couple cannot afford an abortion, then there is a pretty good chance that they cannot afford to raise a child.



:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,660
Loc: To the limit! Flag
Last seen: 7 hours, 48 minutes
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Seuss]
    #13879831 - 01/31/11 12:03 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

who needs an abortions more than they need to practice safe sex, if I make a 'mistake', it comes out of my pocket, if you make a mistake, why should I still have to pay for it, I had nothing to do with your improprieties




I'd much rather pay the cost of an abortion than the cost of raising another breeder's welfare project.  If a couple cannot afford an abortion, then there is a pretty good chance that they cannot afford to raise a child.





Exactly, if anything, the abortions should be mandatory.


--------------------
This space for rent

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Seuss]
    #13880418 - 01/31/11 05:28 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
I'd much rather pay the cost of an abortion than the cost of raising another breeder's welfare project.  If a couple cannot afford an abortion, then there is a pretty good chance that they cannot afford to raise a child.




yet another reason to cut welfare since those breeders often get knocked up
for the sole purpose of increasing the welfare check


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13880436 - 01/31/11 05:41 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> yet another reason to cut welfare since those breeders often get knocked up for the sole purpose of increasing the welfare check

Yep... I always thought that should work opposite... more kids you have, the less money you get.  Of course the bleeding heart liberals scream , "Oh teh children, you heartless bastard!"  Seems odd that we reward people for having children that they cannot afford to raise.  Since I am a fascist corporate shill, I might as well advocate the use of Implanon (or the like) if you are female, past puberty, and on welfare.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Seuss]
    #13880457 - 01/31/11 05:55 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I'm COINTEL PRO :1up:

the BC implant is a great idea but shouldnt that be extended to the 13yo
that's out fucking all the neighborhood boys as well so she can get her own
welfare check... for some reason I tend to believe that anything you do to
stop the government assistance breeding program would be called
unconstitutional by some liberal judge

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineScavengerType
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13882447 - 01/31/11 02:44 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Basically you are saying that the laws of pedophilia should be enforced based on how much money the man or girl has.




no, that seems to be your statement, of course if you can show me where I
made it, feel free to do so



Quote:

maybe they should try that 24yo they were fucking, I'm sure he'd love to
destroy the evidence of his crimes for only a few hundred bucks
:pedobear:




Just for kicks I'll also draw quotes of you advocating physical assault against children.

Quote:

now why must you assume that just because I don't want to pay for someones
abortion that I must want them producing offspring, I'm all for throwing
them down a flight of stairs, call it punishment for making stupid
mistakes that they've surely already been warned against from various
sources including TV, billboards, school, parents, etc...




You are some class act. :thumbup:
But for some reason when I do it to my boss for failing to adequately understand the amount I should receive as a raise and that it should be payed retroactively for some period. I'm the bad guy.
:rolleyes:


Quote:

you're right about one thing, state funded abortion isnt fiscally sound,
nor are social programs that allow for us to support 'breeders' that do
nothing more than increase their government benefit check through their
breeding programs




I get it, so instead of supporting legislation that would prevent this problem with government funded baby machines. You want to support legislation that would prevent people who would be likely to be recipients of such programs from getting free abortions. Anyway your forgetting the other costs that I mentioned. For example, rape kits and exams can cost $800-1500, much less than a chemical abortion, even verifying a rape case is more expensive than just administering treatment.


Quote:

who needs an abortions more than they need to practice safe sex, if I make
a 'mistake', it comes out of my pocket, if you make a mistake, why should
I still have to pay for it, I had nothing to do with your improprieties




Since there is no net-loss (something you have already agreed with), nothing comes out of anyone's pocket. You are the one with this neurotic belief that you are paying for people's abortions. In reality, their abortions are basically paying for themselves. It is you who seems to want to erect an expensive bureaucratic procedure to with hold inexpensive medical treatment that could save more money than it costs just because you don't like the idea of anyone getting any thing for free from the government.

Quote:

I see you're all about keeping women as uneducated fuck dolls that have as
many abortions as possible instead if educating them on the practice of safe sex




Yea you got me, I'm conspiring to get rape victims and children hooked on abortions so that they just abort non-stop, because I am also a satanic atheist american doctor who likes to eat human fetuses.
:twisted:
That's why I didn't advocate the more humane and cost effective method of pushing someone like that down some stairs. Nobody ever racks up medicare expenses from falling down stairs right? It arz science!
:kingtard:

In the US, sex education is notorious for being woefully inadequate even compared to the rest of their education system. However, I don't see you backing any legislation who would help improve public knowledge on the matter, instead you want to remove the safety nets and force a poorly informed public to face consequences they may not be even mentally mature enough to understand.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (01/31/11 02:52 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13883285 - 01/31/11 05:21 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Quote:

now why must you assume that just because I dont want to pay for someones
abortion that I must want them producing offspring, I'm all for throwing
them down a flight of stairs, call it punishment for making stupid
mistakes that they've surely already been warned against from various
sources including TV, billboards, school, parents, etc...




You are some class act. :thumbup:
But for some reason when I do it to my boss for failing to adequately understand the amount I should receive as a raise and that it should be payed retroactively for some period. I'm the bad guy.




you seem to be the one supporting abortions over education


Quote:

Quote:

you're right about one thing, state funded abortion isnt fiscally sound,
nor are social programs that allow for us to support 'breeders' that do
nothing more than increase their government benefit check through their
breeding programs




I get it, so instead of supporting legislation that would prevent this problem with government funded baby machines. You want to support legislation that would prevent people who would be likely to be recipients of such programs from getting free abortions. Anyway your forgetting the other costs that I mentioned. For example, rape kits and exams can cost $800-1500, much less than a chemical abortion, even verifying a rape case is more expensive than just administering treatment.




legislation that would prevent this problem would be the elimination of
government aid, free abortions involve a hard shove and a set of steps,
cheap abortions involve a coat hanger and a plunger


Quote:

You are the one with this neurotic belief that you are paying for people's abortions. In reality, their abortions are basically paying for themselves.

Yea you got me, I'm conspiring to get rape victims and children hooked on abortions so that they just abort non-stop, because I am also a satanic atheist american doctor who likes to eat human fetuses.






no, if they were post birth abortions of the expectant welfare mothers then they'd be paying for themselves in the money save each time one goes in for a visit

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2011/01/19/philly-doctor-facing-8-counts-of-murder/



Quote:

That's why I didn't advocate the more humane and cost effective method of pushing someone like that down some stairs. Nobody ever racks up medicare expenses from falling down stairs right? It arz science!




not if you do it right, then there's only a burial cost


Quote:

In the US, sex education is notorious for being woefully inadequate even compared to the rest of their education system.





lol... it was pretty comprehensive if you paid attention, have sex, risk
pregnancy and STDs... girls cant get preggers if you put it in their butts
maybe that's the part they were lacking

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenanomagnetic
cascadian
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/26/09
Posts: 218
Loc: The Rose City Flag
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13883297 - 01/31/11 05:24 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

You really don't seem to know anything about sex ed in the States, prisoner...let alone effective sex ed.


--------------------
Being an ant is the worst mindfuck ever. They can never hold on to any memories, or come up with any real ideas, or even understand what the fuck is going on, ever.

The Century of the Self: Happiness Machines; The Engineering of Consent; There's a Policeman Inside All Our Heads, He Must be Destroyed; Eight People Sipping Wine in Kettering

Writing is perhaps the greatest of human inventions, binding together people, citizens of distant epochs, who never knew one another. Books break the shackles of time. ~carl sagan

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineScavengerType
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: nanomagnetic]
    #13883395 - 01/31/11 05:39 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

He doesn't seem to know anything about anything on this topic.

He calls me misogynistic (or he would if he used such eloquent words) for advocating abortion coverage for stat rape and incest victims, and claims that people ought to just push them down the stairs instead in the same breath.

I'm not even going to respond to that last bunch.
:trollz:
(fake Russian accent)In shroomery political discussion moderators troll you.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13883481 - 01/31/11 05:54 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
He doesn't seem to know anything about anything on this topic.





Neither do you.  You seem to be mired in the notion that if I don't buy you something you are prohibited from having it.  This is false.  Like I said before, feel free to start an abortion fund for victims of stat rape and incest.  What else are you doing?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSmackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 575
Last seen: 4 months, 6 days
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13885631 - 02/01/11 12:03 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Having read the law I don't believe that it requires the tax payers to pay for abortion at all.  If I take the Republican argument, it still does not mean free abortions for everyone. 

The majority of abortion will still be paid for by people who have them.  The only abortions that would be paid for are those with no means to have one or perhaps in very specific other cases.

In such circumstances failure to receive government assistant would prevent the abortion from happening.  As a practical matter failing to receive government assistance does 'forbid' someone from having one.  Similar to how getting rid of food stamps prevents people from eating food.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: nanomagnetic]
    #13886338 - 02/01/11 06:08 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

nanomagnetic said:
You really don't seem to know anything about sex ed in the States, prisoner...let alone effective sex ed.





as was required in my bible belt school system I took it 3 times, 5th
grade, 6th grade and 8th grade, since then I've not gotten anyone pregnant
I didnt intend to and that was in my 30s, havent had any STDs and havent
had to get myself an abortion, all thanks to the sex ed classes I paid
attention in

one thing they didnt teach me in sex ed was that abortion is a form of
birth control, instead they taught me about condoms and the proper use of,
and that the health department gives them out free and without carding you
or judging you, I learned about other forms of birth control and they even
taught me how the reproductive system works and that was in the 1970s

were you under the impression that it was a class on how to score with
high school girls, if so I can understand your disappointment, do you
honestly believe that sex education has declined since then? are they now
teaching 5th graders that abortion is the best form of birth control?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSmackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 575
Last seen: 4 months, 6 days
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13887293 - 02/01/11 12:03 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

do you honestly believe that sex education has declined since then?




Yes, between "abstinence only" programs, general de-funding of non-essential classes and the gross disparity between urban and suburban school, I would no longer consider your experience to be a very common one.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Smackshadow]
    #13887344 - 02/01/11 12:17 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

What's wrong with abstinence?  What defunding?  And there has always been a disparity between urban and suburban public schools.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenanomagnetic
cascadian
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/26/09
Posts: 218
Loc: The Rose City Flag
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13887549 - 02/01/11 12:56 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

nanomagnetic said:
You really don't seem to know anything about sex ed in the States, prisoner...let alone effective sex ed.





as was required in my bible belt school system I took it 3 times, 5th
grade, 6th grade and 8th grade, since then I've not gotten anyone pregnant
I didnt intend to and that was in my 30s, havent had any STDs and havent
had to get myself an abortion, all thanks to the sex ed classes I paid
attention in

one thing they didnt teach me in sex ed was that abortion is a form of
birth control, instead they taught me about condoms and the proper use of,
and that the health department gives them out free and without carding you
or judging you, I learned about other forms of birth control and they even
taught me how the reproductive system works and that was in the 1970s

were you under the impression that it was a class on how to score with
high school girls, if so I can understand your disappointment, do you
honestly believe that sex education has declined since then? are they now
teaching 5th graders that abortion is the best form of birth control?




So, no. I guess you don't.


--------------------
Being an ant is the worst mindfuck ever. They can never hold on to any memories, or come up with any real ideas, or even understand what the fuck is going on, ever.

The Century of the Self: Happiness Machines; The Engineering of Consent; There's a Policeman Inside All Our Heads, He Must be Destroyed; Eight People Sipping Wine in Kettering

Writing is perhaps the greatest of human inventions, binding together people, citizens of distant epochs, who never knew one another. Books break the shackles of time. ~carl sagan

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineScavengerType
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: nanomagnetic]
    #13887660 - 02/01/11 01:22 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Personally I think he's flame-baiting. How else could you explain it.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (02/01/11 01:23 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSmackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 575
Last seen: 4 months, 6 days
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13887934 - 02/01/11 02:15 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

What's wrong with abstinence?  What defunding?  And there has always been a disparity between urban and suburban public schools.




Abstinence is not sex education.  It fails to teach how to deal with actual sex appropriately.

The defunding of public education in general.  Liberal arts and health courses in particular.  Not to mention the end results of "no child left behind"

The disparity may have always been there but, my guess is that Prisoner1 was not on the losing end of that disparity.  Therefore his experiences are likely a-typical.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Smackshadow]
    #13887981 - 02/01/11 02:24 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smackshadow said:
Quote:

What's wrong with abstinence?  What defunding?  And there has always been a disparity between urban and suburban public schools.




Abstinence is not sex education.  It fails to teach how to deal with actual sex appropriately.




False.  It is the single most effective method to avoid STDs and unwanted pregnancy.  You should have paid more attention.
Quote:



The defunding of public education in general.  Liberal arts and health courses in particular.  Not to mention the end results of "no child left behind"




False the amount of money spent on education in this country has been steadily rising.  Sadly results have not kept pace with the dollar amounts spent.  See teacher's unions for an explanation of that phenomenon.  No child left behind has done fairly well at identifying shitty schools.  Unfortunately it hasn't done much about fixing them.
Quote:



The disparity may have always been there but, my guess is that Prisoner1 was not on the losing end of that disparity.  Therefore his experiences are likely a-typical.




I suspect Pris went to neither a suburban nor urban school.  But so what?  And just what part of "Wrap your fucking junk" is so difficult to understand?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13888413 - 02/01/11 03:33 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> False.  It is the single most effective method to avoid STDs and unwanted pregnancy.

Yes and no.  You are certainly correct in the statement you made, but when put against the power of a teenagers hormones, abstinence does not fair very well.

> False the amount of money spent on education in this country has been steadily rising.  Sadly results have not kept pace with the dollar amounts spent. 

Interestingly, the money spent on education rises as the number of teacher unions increase and at the same time the students performance decreases.  Coincidence?

> No child left behind has done fairly well at identifying shitty schools.  Unfortunately it hasn't done much about fixing them.

That is because the problem isn't shitty schools, but instead is shitty teachers that are protected from reprimand coupled with shitty parents that care more about their careers than raising their children.  Get rid of teacher unions and hold parents criminally liable for their children's school performance and student performance will improve dramatically.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineScavengerType
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Seuss]
    #13888530 - 02/01/11 03:52 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Get rid of teacher unions and hold parents criminally liable for their children's school performance and student performance will improve dramatically.




And you get angry when people call you a fascist?

Get rid of abstinence related education, almost entirely. It just doesn't work and a ridiculous focus on abstinence is the main problem with sex education in the US. Further I've seen a lot of abstinence speakers and shit in the US use ridiculous statistics that they pulled out of thin air on a regular basis. I for example once heard one say shit like condoms have a 20% chance of failure to protect from STDs. This kind of misinformation is the reason why abstinence based education is the problem, because it undermines all the factual education on the matter.

Can we guess where these programs come from? That's right, the same fundamentalists nut-bags who are trying to push this legislation with added support under the guise of tea-party themed cutting of government assistance.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Seuss]
    #13888600 - 02/01/11 04:06 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:


> No child left behind has done fairly well at identifying shitty schools.  Unfortunately it hasn't done much about fixing them.

That is because the problem isn't shitty schools, but instead is shitty teachers that are protected from reprimand coupled with shitty parents that care more about their careers than raising their children.  Get rid of teacher unions and hold parents criminally liable for their children's school performance and student performance will improve dramatically.




yep, additionally the schools mandate seems clearly to be most similar to a day care center (keep track of children, make sure they don't get hurt, and keep the parents happy with reports about how many gold stars their kid earned that week) rather than an education institution.  Plenty of parents trying to but in and impede any actual attempt to run an academic-oriented course and leave the kids responsible for their own mastery of the material.

Plenty of parents around here become incensensed if their kid gets bad grades "my child is special" and so forth, so the class starts to shift from being graded on knowledge (tests) to discipline and pointless excercises.  Then when the advanced class is filled with people who's only measure of merit is their mother's high opinion of them and their high marks in courses where 80% of the grade is discipline (keeping notes per teacher instructions, submission of repetitive homework on time, attendance, et cet), the class slows down to a crawl and the introduction of new material is substituted for by pointless required homework and rote memorization/repetition.

That was my experience in highschool.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying kids shouldn't be let into whatever class they want, I'm saying that them failing doesn't mean the teature is necessarily doing a bad job nor that the class needs to change.

The change when I got to college was amazing (at least my science classes, the general requirement courses were often the same bullshit)- there you weren't punished for having some perceived aptitude in the coursework, but are graded upon what you are able to know and do rather than symbolic but irrelevant markers such as submitting homework on time or bringing the correct sized binder et cet.

I personally think in the sciences many highschool teachers are woefully undereducated and incompetent by and large.  An education degree should not be the preferred credential to be a science teacher.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13888746 - 02/01/11 04:32 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> And you get angry when people call you a fascist?

Angry?  More amused that people have no idea what the word means and seem to inappropriately use it in place of authoritarian.  Does the shoe fit in this case, perhaps?  :grin:

> Get rid of abstinence related education, almost entirely.

Why?  As Zappa pointed out... oh wait, you don't see those, do you.  :rolleyes:


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Seuss]
    #13888802 - 02/01/11 04:41 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:

> Get rid of abstinence related education, almost entirely.

Why?  As Zappa pointed out... oh wait, you don't see those, do you.  :rolleyes:




Because its not education, its propaganda.  Education is learning things.  The laws and strategies regarding abstinence education typically are defined by suggesting the subjects of the 'education' be told to remain abstinent. 

Not only does this seem fundamentally wrong when the speaker is teh government, as it is in pretty much all relevant cases, but it encourages exagerations or outright falsehoods (mostly in good faith I'd imagine) to be offered as justifications for the mandated official position.  When someone asks why abstinence is the best course or why they should be abstinant, the teacher will be defensively drawn to proved a justification for the government-line that they are required by law to advance.  This is not education and is poor policy.

Whether we're talking about intelligent design or abstinance, I don't think government should be passing laws requiring certain views to be taught independantly of their representative relevance ot the subject of instruction (in creative design's case, of no relevance if the course is science, other than perhaps a current events thing).

I don't think the government should be "educating" people to have sex or abstain or do anthying.  Teach the subject- if that subject is human sexuality than teach it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: johnm214] * 1
    #13889546 - 02/01/11 06:34 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Why are you afraid of informing kids that abstinence is the most effective method to avoid pregnancy and STDs?  That seems like some pretty fucking good edumacation right there, bub.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Smackshadow]
    #13889603 - 02/01/11 06:41 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smackshadow said:
Quote:

do you honestly believe that sex education has declined since then?




Yes, between "abstinence only" programs, general de-funding of non-essential classes and the gross disparity between urban and suburban school, I would no longer consider your experience to be a very common one.





I'm glad I live in the real america, rural georgia where sex education isnt
abstinence only, no clue what backward part of the country you live in but
around these parts sex ed still covers the topic of sex without forbidding
it, shit, the schools here dont even have a D.A.R.E. program

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13889628 - 02/01/11 06:45 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Get rid of abstinence related education, almost entirely.





so you're saying they should teach the kiddies to go fuck and have abortions
as opposed to the only 100% effective method of birth control in addition to
teaching them about other options to prevent pregnancy and STDs

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13889679 - 02/01/11 06:54 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I suspect Pris went to neither a suburban nor urban school.





I dropped out of high school when I was 4, it just didnt provide a challenge
and neither did the girls, them bitches was just too easy


I started in urban schools in 1st and second grade, moved a few counties away
to a rural area, it quickly grew and became the suburbs of atlanta but they
still had the rural mindset and early in my 9th grade year I was back in
Lower Urbania because of an expulsion for being a very bad boy

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13889700 - 02/01/11 06:58 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

So that would be reform school then?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13889900 - 02/01/11 07:24 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Why are you afraid of informing kids that abstinence is the most effective method to avoid pregnancy and STDs?  That seems like some pretty fucking good edumacation right there, bub.





I'm not, I'm saying they shouldn't be telling kids whether to have sex or not, meerly educating them on the issue.  Learning something does not require you to believe it or otherwise adopt the views of various people.  Abstinance-based education which offers abstinance as the acceptable choice or teh choice you should make is putting the school and state in a role decidedly unrelated to education.  Similarly I would find it inappropriate for a school to require kids to believe evolutionary theory describes historical incidents or creative design does, or anything of the sort.  I find it a bit disenchanting how some kids are educated about these issues and made to make pledges regarding not having sex till marriage before they even have a sex drive to speak of.  It raises questions, beyond those of what role the state should be in, of the impact on their psyche given that everybody seems to violate that role.  Pushing moral choices like that on children like that with the knowledge that they are somewhat socially unacceptable and contrary to normal behavior in the culture, especially on a subject so tied up in psychological baggage as sexuality, seems unwise.


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Get rid of abstinence related education, almost entirely.





so you're saying they should teach the kiddies to go fuck and have abortions
as opposed to the only 100% effective method of birth control in addition to
teaching them about other options to prevent pregnancy and STDs





False choice.  This isn't the totality of what a non-abstinance based educational program would be.  Additionally, much of the objection to abstinance based education is in regards to proposals, perhaps enacted, to limit the information conveyed- i.e. how to use birth control and factual things like that.  Once more, I don't think the information conveyed should be censored due to non-educational or practical considerations.  That the state wants people to think a certain way or act in certain ways should not limit the scope of education ideally (perhaps ever).

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: johnm214]
    #13889953 - 02/01/11 07:34 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Boy o boy you sure do read a lot of compulsion into a choice.  Is it or is it not true that abstinence is the most effect.......?  Fucking tell 'em.  Tell 'em everything.  And tell them this too:

"If you are going to fuck you better take care or be prepared to have the rest of your life compromised.  Most of you are too stupid to be reliably responsible.  It's best you stick to mouthwork."


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13890120 - 02/01/11 08:01 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I have no disagreement with what your advocating in that post, I don't know why you style it as contrar to my post.

When opposing abstinance only sex education, I am speaking of those programs commonly discussed and labled as such, such as the US laws regarding sex education.  These do far more than simply inform people of the facts and the simpe truths you and I have discused.


Quote:

the term “abstinence education” means an educational or motivational program which—

(B) teaches abstinence from sexual activity outside marriage as the expected standard for all school age children;

(C) teaches that abstinence from sexual activity is the only certain way to avoid out-of-wedlock pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, and other associated health problems;

(D) teaches that a mutually faithful ­monogamous relationship in context of marriage is the expected standard of human sexual activity;

(E) teaches that sexual activity outside of the context of marriage is likely to have harmful psychological and physical effects;

(F) teaches that bearing children out-of-wedlock is likely to have harmful consequences for the child, the child’s parents, and society;




See: 42 USC sec 1710(b)(2)

Some of this is false, by the way, though the law makes no provisions for teaching accurate information when conflicting with these provisions.  For the same reason kids shouldn't be subjected to science classes that "teach the controversy" over evolution and intelligent design when such controversy doesn't exist scientifically and has nothing to do with science, essentially establishing science by law as if that works any better now than when the Vatican and Catholic states did it, publicly funded schools should not be required by law to inform kids that abstaining from sexual activity is a certain way to avoid sexually transmitted diseases and associated helath problems or that sex out of marriage is likely to cause psychological and physical problems.  Sexually Transmitted diseases and other associated health problems may be incurred without sexual activity, and the other claims are generally untrue as well.

(its interesting to note as well that they seem to require condemning those children who don't have married parents to being a manifestation of a harmful effect upon society and their parents- as if kids in divorce don't have enough self-guilt without the school teaching them this as well)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: johnm214]
    #13890265 - 02/01/11 08:26 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
See: 42 USC sec 1710(b)(2)





it's section 710 and it outlines funding for a program

Quote:

(a) In general
For the purpose described in subsection (b) of this section, the
Secretary shall, for fiscal year 1998 and each subsequent fiscal
year, allot to each State which has transmitted an application for
the fiscal year under section 705(a) of this title an amount equal
to the product of -
(1) the amount appropriated in subsection (d) of this section
for the fiscal year; and
(2) the percentage determined for the State under section
702(c)(1)(B)(ii) of this title.
(b) Purpose of allotment
(1) The purpose of an allotment under subsection (a) of this
section to a State is to enable the State to provide abstinence
education, and at the option of the State, where appropriate,
mentoring, counseling, and adult supervision to promote abstinence
from sexual activity, with a focus on those groups which are most
likely to bear children out-of-wedlock.
(2) For purposes of this section, the term "abstinence education"
means an educational or motivational program which -
(A) has as its exclusive purpose, teaching the social,
psychological, and health gains to be realized by abstaining from
sexual activity;
(B) teaches abstinence from sexual activity outside marriage as
the expected standard for all school age children;
(C) teaches that abstinence from sexual activity is the only
certain way to avoid out-of-wedlock pregnancy, sexually
transmitted diseases, and other associated health problems;
(D) teaches that a mutually faithful monogamous relationship in
context of marriage is the expected standard of human sexual
activity;
(E) teaches that sexual activity outside of the context of
marriage is likely to have harmful psychological and physical
effects;
(F) teaches that bearing children out-of-wedlock is likely to
have harmful consequences for the child, the child's parents, and
society;
(G) teaches young people how to reject sexual advances and how
alcohol and drug use increases vulnerability to sexual advances;
and
(H) teaches the importance of attaining self-sufficiency before
engaging in sexual activity.
(c) Applicability of sections 703, 707, and 708
(1) Sections 703, 707, and 708 of this title apply to allotments
under subsection (a) of this section to the same extent and in the
same manner as such sections apply to allotments under section
702(c) of this title.
(2) Sections 705 and 706 of this title apply to allotments under
subsection (a) of this section to the extent determined by the
Secretary to be appropriate.
(d) Appropriations
For the purpose of allotments under subsection (a) of this
section, there is appropriated, out of any money in the Treasury
not otherwise appropriated, an additional $50,000,000 for each of
the fiscal years 1998 through 2003. The appropriation under the
preceding sentence for a fiscal year is made on October 1 of the
fiscal year.




Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineScavengerType
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: johnm214]
    #13890396 - 02/01/11 08:48 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I don't know why this removing abstinence based teaching is so controversial. Almost every other developed country uses non-abstinence based teaching methods for sexual education. Believe it or not they don't teach "the abortion method" as a method of birth control because it is not. I also might ad that in addition to some brief coverage of issues like abuse and sexual abuse in early elementary in canada in the 90s I got sex ed related instruction in grade seven, eight, nine, and ten. There may have even been some in eleven and twelve but I dropped out. A lot of people can live with forgetting trig or major amounts of chemistry after they leave school, but this is something that they need to know and should be re-taught and expanded upon throughout their time in school.


The point though is that making this one change to improve the curriculum like Johnm has eloquently outlined here would lead to not only less teen pregnancies but would decrease the so called non-forcible rape abortions, particularly the ones where the girl involved had a real modicum of control over if/how the sex would happen. It would do all this and decrease costs. The bill proposed however would deny legitimate victims coverage and prevent them from getting an abortion if they are poor enough. Then to top it all off it would increase total costs. Prisoner, you yourself have admitted that this legislation would only reduce costs if it was bundled or combined with legislation that removed access for many to the types of benefits given to mothers, which you also admitted would not pass. So why stand behind it?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13890546 - 02/01/11 09:11 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
I don't know why this removing abstinence based teaching is so controversial. Almost every other developed country uses non-abstinence based teaching methods for sexual education.






really? and they dont mention abstinence at all?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineScavengerType
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13890812 - 02/01/11 09:51 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

They mention it, but it isn't the stigma or main point of some of the curriculums like Johnm outlined. The emphasis was instead on realistic prevention methods that will affect birth/STI rates.

Interesting that you should pick on this instead of answering my question.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13891140 - 02/01/11 10:49 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
See: 42 USC sec 1710(b)(2)










thanks for the correction.  I'm not sure what the remainder of your post's relevance is, however.  Yes, it defines eligibility for funding.  Regardless, this is what I understand abstinance based sex ed to be referring to as this is the policy/law that is inevitably discused in the news when such terms are used.


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

ScavengerType said:
I don't know why this removing abstinence based teaching is so controversial. Almost every other developed country uses non-abstinence based teaching methods for sexual education.






really? and they dont mention abstinence at all?




What does that have to do with anything?  This seems like a false choice and irrelevant.  Mentioning abstinence, in any case, is not what is objected to.  I'm unsure why you and zappa continue to argue against these straw men without demonstrating the pertinence of the manufactured position you battle.



Quote:

ScavengerType said:



The point though is that making this one change to improve the curriculum like Johnm has eloquently outlined here would lead to not only less teen pregnancies but would decrease the so called non-forcible rape abortions, particularly the ones where the girl involved had a real modicum of control over if/how the sex would happen. It would do all this and decrease costs.


  Yethat's one of the psychological problems I mentioned being perhaps derivative of organized instruction that you are psychologically and physically harmed when you have sex, and all the other nonsense which compounds the already fickle and complicated issue of teen sexuality.  While I think its reasonable to presume the improvements in efficacy would be benefits to repealing such provisions, my main problem is the objection to schools being used to disseminate propaganda such as this and basically telling people "your dirty whores who are physically and mentally deviant and damaged" as the law requires funded sex ed to do (as essentially all of the instructed people do not abstain from premarital sex).

The incorrect information required to be taught as fact is another problem that needs addressing.

Finally, the further encouragement of marriage as a government function seems unwise, and I see no reason why the government should be taking a position on whether people should or should not get married and whether they should or should not have sex- especially not children who are compelled by law to listen to the message.  These systems basically tell gay children that they must be abstinent if they don't have access to marriage- further repressing them with predictable consequences.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSmackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 575
Last seen: 4 months, 6 days
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: johnm214]
    #13891442 - 02/01/11 11:58 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Why are you afraid of informing kids that abstinence is the most effective method to avoid pregnancy and STDs?  That seems like some pretty fucking good edumacation right there, bub.




Because it is false.  http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/hanson_24_2.htm


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13891760 - 02/02/11 01:20 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
They mention it, but it isn't the stigma or main point of some of the curriculums like Johnm outlined. The emphasis was instead on realistic prevention methods that will affect birth/STI rates.

Interesting that you should pick on this instead of answering my question.





john didnt outline anything, he posted a small section of shit from a code
section regarding funding of and alternative to comprehensive sex education,
not the shit in every school in the US...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: johnm214]
    #13891795 - 02/02/11 01:36 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> When opposing abstinance only sex education

Only?  Nobody here (from what I have read) is advocating abstinence only sex education.  I would agree that abstinence only sex education is stupid.  On the contrary, ST was actually arguing for no (or "almost no") abstinence sex education... which the rest of us have pointed out is stupid.  Abstinence is the single best method of avoiding STDs and unwanted pregnancies.  Unfortunately, the will power of your average hormonal teen is not very strong.  Of course other methods of birth control should be taught in sex education classes.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineScavengerType
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Seuss]
    #13891880 - 02/02/11 02:21 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

No I was referring to the same stuff that Johnm is referring to. If you guys were more familiar with the programs that result from these policies. you would understand why these are a bad move. I don't think you can understand how bad it is on paper in the law, you have to see it taught to understand. Not to mention that this class time is being wasted meeting those requirements instead of discussing actual issues.

However, I'm a little surprised that it hasn't clicked that schools that are low on funds (often in poor neighborhoods) will be the ones to turn to those curriculum for funding. In effect the legal code that Johnm has cited is a much greater part of the problem of teenage pregnancy among the poor than you guys seem to realize.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13891995 - 02/02/11 03:23 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> If you guys were more familiar with the programs that result from these policies

I don't care about programs that result from these policies.  That is not what I am arguing.  If I meant abstinence only, then I would have said abstinence only rather than abstinence.  I don't understand why some people continually try to read more into my words than what I write.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Smackshadow]
    #13893323 - 02/02/11 11:50 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smackshadow said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Why are you afraid of informing kids that abstinence is the most effective method to avoid pregnancy and STDs?  That seems like some pretty fucking good edumacation right there, bub.




Because it is false.  http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/hanson_24_2.htm



:rofl2:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13893559 - 02/02/11 12:47 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

You'd have to be a pretty repressed kid to make abstinence work. Nature wins.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Icelander]
    #13893582 - 02/02/11 12:51 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Not always.  Not always at all.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinejimbotron
Patty-Cake Enthusiast
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 2,324
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13896942 - 02/02/11 10:46 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Additional fun fact: the word 'woman', found even in recent abominations like the Stupak Amendment, is notably absent from the Redefining Rape Act.

Instead, it has been replaced by by 'Pregnant Female'. Like a horse or something. I shit you not. Go do a ctrl-f search if you don't believe me.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-h3/text

Coincidence?

Even more interesting, under this law, abortion isn't even considered a medical procedure anymore. As opposed to, say, getting breast implants.

Quote:

'(1) no credit shall be allowed under the internal revenue laws with respect to amounts paid or incurred for an abortion or with respect to amounts paid or incurred for a health benefits plan (including premium assistance) that includes coverage of abortion.

‘(2) for purposes of determining any deduction for expenses paid for medical care of the taxpayer or the taxpayer’s spouse or dependents, amounts paid or incurred for an abortion or for a health benefits plan that includes coverage of abortion shall not be taken into account, and
5
‘(3) in the case of any tax-preferred trust or account the purpose of which is to pay medical expenses of the account beneficiary, any amount paid or distributed from such an account for an abortion shall be included in the gross income of such beneficiary.





Read: if your insurance covers abortions, even if you never get one, even if you're 70 fucking years old and it's just part of your plan, EVEN IF YOU'RE A MAN WITH A ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL GROUP PLAN... you can't deduct it.

Are they fucking joking?

Edited by jimbotron (02/02/11 10:56 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineScavengerType
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: jimbotron]
    #13897139 - 02/02/11 11:20 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

be fair jimbotron, big titties aren't an affront to god.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13901921 - 02/03/11 08:45 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Not always.  Not always at all.




I don't know were you grew up but in my neighborhoods and school only total shrinking violets weren't out there gettin laid. And I suspect some of them were too.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore Bulk Substrate


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* 5 U.S. soldiers charged in Iraq rape-slay case
( 1 2 3 all )
daussaulit 4,877 47 04/18/15 09:18 PM
by Douglas Howard
* Muslim Rape Epidemic in Sweden and Norway?Authorities Look the Other Way
( 1 2 all )
LSDempire 2,773 33 12/15/19 02:21 PM
by Sulfurshelfsean
* Media eat up absurd rape story
( 1 2 all )
lonestar2004 3,884 24 07/16/06 02:46 PM
by zappaisgod
* Thousands Raped in Congo.
( 1 2 3 4 all )
The_Red_Crayon 3,734 66 08/19/05 06:57 PM
by The_Red_Crayon
* Libyan Lawyer Gang Raped, Defecated On, Then Arrested
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Coaster 4,828 61 04/20/11 01:44 AM
by Coaster
* Rape 'a weapon' in Sudan war
( 1 2 all )
question_for_joo 2,208 20 07/20/04 04:59 AM
by Innvertigo
* palin "would oppose abortion even if my own daughter was raped"...
( 1 2 3 all )
Annapurna1 3,290 41 09/02/08 05:20 PM
by Phred
* Jihad and rape go hand in hand
( 1 2 all )
Evolving 2,181 32 09/26/04 09:53 PM
by Phluck

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
3,101 topic views. 0 members, 6 guests and 9 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.062 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 14 queries.