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Offlinejimbotron
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The Rape Caucus
    #13869334 - 01/29/11 01:18 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Alright, folks, there's a lot of problems facing America, so let's see what the newly minted Republican Tea Party has on the agenda. Let's not forget that they are 100% dedicated to jobs and fiscal discipline, and totally not the same old Christian whackjob Republican base, for reals.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/republican-plan-redefine-rape-abortion

Quote:

For years, federal laws restricting the use of government funds to pay for abortions have included exemptions for pregnancies resulting from rape or incest. (Another exemption covers pregnancies that could endanger the life of the woman.) But the "No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion Act," a bill with 173 mostly Republican co-sponsors that House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) has dubbed a top priority in the new Congress, contains a provision that would rewrite the rules to limit drastically the definition of rape and incest in these cases.

With this legislation, which was introduced last week by Rep. Chris Smith (R-N.J.), Republicans propose that the rape exemption be limited to "forcible rape." This would rule out federal assistance for abortions in many rape cases, including instances of statutory rape, many of which are non-forcible. For example: If a 13-year-old girl is impregnated by a 24-year-old adult, she would no longer qualify to have Medicaid pay for an abortion. (Smith's spokesman did not respond to a call and an email requesting comment.)

Given that the bill also would forbid the use of tax benefits to pay for abortions, that 13-year-old's parents wouldn't be allowed to use money from a tax-exempt health savings account (HSA) to pay for the procedure. They also wouldn't be able to deduct the cost of the abortion or the cost of any insurance that paid for it as a medical expense.




WOW.

Okay, so let me get this straight. Apparently Republicans have decided that there's a "loophole" in the laws permitting federal subsidies for abortions in cases of rape, because sometimes the rape isn't bad enough to justify it. Basically, if you are not beaten to a bloody pulp like in A Clockwork Orange, you are having that fucking baby, slut.

Tell you what. If you have some other interpretation of this law, I'd love to hear it. I'd also like to know what the fuck drives people to push this kind of thing?

On the other hand, feminazis bitch about porn, so both sides do it, or something.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: jimbotron]
    #13869875 - 01/29/11 07:57 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said:
Quote:

This would rule out federal assistance for abortions in many rape cases, including instances of statutory rape, many of which are non-forcible. For example: If a 13-year-old girl is impregnated by a 24-year-old adult, she would no longer qualify to have Medicaid pay for an abortion.








I'm good with that, the 24yo can pay for the abortion, if not, let the
parents of the 13yo pay, why should I be paying for the stupidity of
others when condoms are so damn cheap, statutory rape isnt something
pushed on someone that was unwilling, it's 2 willing participants and
is only 'rape' in name

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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: jimbotron]
    #13869876 - 01/29/11 07:59 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said: I'd also like to know what the fuck drives people to push this kind of thing?





Some people genuinely believe abortion is murder and act on that view. :shrug:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Doc_T]
    #13870044 - 01/29/11 09:11 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Once again, jimbo believes that not paying for something is equivalent to forbidding it.  It makes me wonder if jimbo has ever actually supported himself.  It is the only possible explanation for his continued whining that the government should be responsible for paying for everything.  Let the fucking dumbasses pay for their own fucking abortion.  Or let the jimbos of the world pay for it.  There's nothing stopping you, jimbo.  Be a mensch if you want.


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OfflineMutantBonobo
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Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13870183 - 01/29/11 09:45 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

3 to 1... make that 4 to 1.  All the respondents bring up valid points.


--------------------
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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: MutantBonobo]
    #13870435 - 01/29/11 10:46 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MutantBonobo said:
3 to 1... make that 4 to 1.  All the respondents bring up valid points.




Really?

Quote:

let the
parents of the 13yo pay... statutory rape isnt something
pushed on someone that was unwilling, it's 2 willing participants and
is only 'rape' in name




First we've got a defense of pedophilia.

Quote:

Some people genuinely believe abortion is murder and act on that view.




Then we've got an utter lack of compassion. Some people genuinely believe rape is a terrible thing. These Republicans clearly believe that their morality trumps everyone else's. Again - no one forces rape victims to have abortions, but Republicans want to deny them the choice.

Anyway, why have any rape exception at all, then? From what you're saying, if a 12-year old is beaten and drugged and impregnated by a 40-year-old, she is a murderer if she doesn't finish this life-ruining pregnancy (in the eyes of these people).

But why do they give her a free pass if she was beaten? Do they just think this slightly-less-extreme version of 'morality' is more palatable to the American public? You can't water down murder...

Quote:

Once again, jimbo believes that not paying for something is equivalent to forbidding it.




Not equivalent, but tantamount. Many Americans don't have $600.

It takes a truly sick fuck to force a rape victim to cough up money.

And despite all the talk about statutory rape, that's only part of what they're attacking. For example, if a girl is drugged unconscious and raped, Republicans think she should have to pay for it. For now, someone who's beaten unconscious and raped does not.

Can somebody explain the morality here? It's honestly a little opaque to me.

Quote:

3 to 1... make that 4 to 1.  All the respondents bring up valid points.




None of these respondents would ever get elected dog catcher with defenses like these. None have made a single positive argument for this bill; they've only given reasons why they think it isn't as bad as it appears to be.

Again, I gotta ask: why this and why now? I thought the Tea Party was serious about fixing things.

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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: jimbotron]
    #13870441 - 01/29/11 10:48 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Tell you what. Complete the following sentence.

"It is necessary, concerning federal funding of abortion, to redefine rape as 'forcible rape' because____"

Should be easy, right?

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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: jimbotron]
    #13870475 - 01/29/11 10:55 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The only one I can really come up with is "because otherwise sluts and whores will claim they were raped to get free abortions." Which is the 'loophole' I alluded to in the first place, and is a really horrible reason.

So somebody else figure it out.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: jimbotron]
    #13870525 - 01/29/11 11:10 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said:
Tell you what. Complete the following sentence.

"It is necessary, concerning federal funding of abortion, to redefine rape as 'forcible rape' because____"

Should be easy, right?




And it is.  I'm surprised that you are having a difficult time with this.  Unfortunately, the term "rape" has been watered down over the years to include things, such as consensual intercourse between two people that are underage.  Because of this, the lawmakers now find themselves in a position where they need to differentiate between traditional (forcible) rape and all of these other types of "rape" that have been pushed into the statutes over the years.  This isn't some nefarious plot by the evil Republicans nor is it a difficult concept for most people to grasp.


--------------------
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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: jimbotron]
    #13870635 - 01/29/11 11:37 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said:
Quote:

let the
parents of the 13yo pay... statutory rape isnt something
pushed on someone that was unwilling, it's 2 willing participants and
is only 'rape' in name




First we've got a defense of pedophilia.





with convoluted logic like that, no wonder you stay confused

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Seuss]
    #13870931 - 01/29/11 12:52 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

jimbotron said:
Tell you what. Complete the following sentence.

"It is necessary, concerning federal funding of abortion, to redefine rape as 'forcible rape' because____"

Should be easy, right?




And it is.  I'm surprised that you are having a difficult time with this.  Unfortunately, the term "rape" has been watered down over the years to include things, such as consensual intercourse between two people that are underage.  Because of this, the lawmakers now find themselves in a position where they need to differentiate between traditional (forcible) rape and all of these other types of "rape" that have been pushed into the statutes over the years.  This isn't some nefarious plot by the evil Republicans nor is it a difficult concept for most people to grasp.





Bingo.

Especially when dealing with highly emotional issues such as sex crimes, it is especially important to be clear on what we're talking about.

Its so ridiculous now that people apparently equate the lack of legal consent, a moving target with no moral relevance per se, or perhaps lack of consent factually, as rape.  I've heard this explicitly claimed (that lack of consent is rape) by several people, and it is apparently taught at some college orientation sessions.  Hell, there's a regularly-posting member on the shroomery who got so upset when I observed the difference between a lack of consent legally and factually and the crime of rape that he started calling me names, implied I was like a rapist or somesuch silliness, and now ignores me.    Similarly.  I'm sure we've all heard fallacious repudiations of proponents of various legislation that equate the subject matter of the legislation discussed with the proponent's activities, moral charecter.  This kinda thing has a real potential to let unjust and wrongheaded legislation reamin for fear of criticism.

With these types of topics, we should be especially vigilant not to let the unpleasant subject matter or fear of guilt by association-style condemnation (you defend a distinction that may benefit someoneone, therefore you support that person's actions) stop logical discussion.

Personally I wish more federal legislation defined laws more clearly rather than referring to them in the oblique way they often do- which may leave it up to the state's quirks to decide whether a federal law applies in a given case.  I wonder if there's other mentions of rape in the federal law that should likewise have been corrected in this bill?  That's one valid criticism I could think of.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: jimbotron]
    #13870974 - 01/29/11 01:02 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I asked this before and I'll ask it again, jimbo.  Why don't you fucking pay for them?  Get the fuck out of my wallet and shake some moths out of yours and cough up the fucking cake.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Seuss]
    #13871191 - 01/29/11 02:02 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Unfortunately, the term "rape" has been watered down over the years to include things, such as consensual intercourse between two people that are underage.




Source?

I don't think that anyone should be made to have a baby at 13, which is actually what the implications of this reform are. It has harmful health implications for those individuals. Also, in Freakanomics the author claimed a clear link between access to abortion for those of little or no income and lower crime rates (Something that it supported and has been argued by others as well). The legislation is not just morally wrong-headed, but is also economically foolish as well.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13871309 - 01/29/11 02:27 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
Unfortunately, the term "rape" has been watered down over the years to include things, such as consensual intercourse between two people that are underage.




Source?

I don't think that anyone should be made to have a baby at 13, which is actually what the implications of this reform are. It has harmful health implications for those individuals.




Nobody is forbidding abortion.  In fact you and jimbo should finally make yourselves useful and establish a fund to provide abortions for indigent rape victims.

Abortion itself has harmful health implications.


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Offlinenanomagnetic
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Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13871395 - 01/29/11 02:46 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

jimbotron said:
Quote:

let the
parents of the 13yo pay... statutory rape isnt something
pushed on someone that was unwilling, it's 2 willing participants and
is only 'rape' in name




First we've got a defense of pedophilia.





with convoluted logic like that, no wonder you stay confused




Thirteen is a little young. It could definitely be considered pedophilia.

And statutory rape isn't meant to be "rape in name only." An adult often has power or authority over an adolescent. The statutory rape laws, fundamentally, criminalize abusing that relationship for sex.


--------------------
Being an ant is the worst mindfuck ever. They can never hold on to any memories, or come up with any real ideas, or even understand what the fuck is going on, ever.

The Century of the Self: Happiness Machines; The Engineering of Consent; There's a Policeman Inside All Our Heads, He Must be Destroyed; Eight People Sipping Wine in Kettering

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: nanomagnetic]
    #13871493 - 01/29/11 03:17 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

"Statutory" means, specifically, "by statute".  The law says it is so it is.

Some 13 year-olds are different from other 13 year-olds so sometimes it would be pedophilia and sometimes it would be ephebophilia, depending on just how developed they are.  I would think that a pregnant 13 year-old would involve the latter in most cases


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Offlinenanomagnetic
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Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13871537 - 01/29/11 03:28 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, I think the majority of cases involving a 13-year-old would rightly fall under ephebophilia.

Quote:

"Statutory" means, specifically, "by statute".  The law says it is so it is.




That's definitely the title of the law, but the rationale is much less tautological.


--------------------
Being an ant is the worst mindfuck ever. They can never hold on to any memories, or come up with any real ideas, or even understand what the fuck is going on, ever.

The Century of the Self: Happiness Machines; The Engineering of Consent; There's a Policeman Inside All Our Heads, He Must be Destroyed; Eight People Sipping Wine in Kettering

Writing is perhaps the greatest of human inventions, binding together people, citizens of distant epochs, who never knew one another. Books break the shackles of time. ~carl sagan

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: nanomagnetic]
    #13871552 - 01/29/11 03:33 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

In past societies women married at that age.  I'm not supporting it, by any means, I'm just saying that whatever age that is selected is somewhat arbitrary.


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Offlinenanomagnetic
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Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13871591 - 01/29/11 03:39 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

All the social constructs tend to be pretty arbitrary.


--------------------
Being an ant is the worst mindfuck ever. They can never hold on to any memories, or come up with any real ideas, or even understand what the fuck is going on, ever.

The Century of the Self: Happiness Machines; The Engineering of Consent; There's a Policeman Inside All Our Heads, He Must be Destroyed; Eight People Sipping Wine in Kettering

Writing is perhaps the greatest of human inventions, binding together people, citizens of distant epochs, who never knew one another. Books break the shackles of time. ~carl sagan

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Rape Caucus [Re: nanomagnetic]
    #13871614 - 01/29/11 03:44 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The legal ones even more so.  Consider Roe v Wade.  Back it was originally decided Blackmun based his rationale for the defined dates on the viability of the fetus.  In the 40 years since the decision the viable age of a fetus has decreased quite a bit due to medical advances.  Yet the law remains unchanged. 

Lest anyone get the wrong idea I think Roe v Wade was a great piece of legislation.  Unfortunately it wasn't enacted by a legislature.


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