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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Egypt [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13875661 - 01/30/11 09:35 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Yes.  That is it.  A thugocracy.  Soon to be replaced by another thugocracy.  That is my prediction.  See Iran.




Seems most plausible to me.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,289
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 9 days, 4 hours
Re: Egypt [Re: DieCommie]
    #13875691 - 01/30/11 09:47 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Sure, it's plausible.

It was also plausible, and assumed by many, that the American experiment in democracy would collapse under it's own weight almost as soon as it was declared and brought into fruition.

Whether you like it or not, and whether it turns out well or not, the Egyptian people have the right to live under a government of their own choosing.

If it turns out to be a poor government, well, then so be it.  They can do this again until they get it right.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Egypt [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #13875715 - 01/30/11 09:58 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

'Poor' government?  I dont get your point here.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Egypt [Re: Madtowntripper] * 1
    #13875720 - 01/30/11 10:00 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Sure, it's plausible.

It was also plausible, and assumed by many, that the American experiment in democracy would collapse under it's own weight almost as soon as it was declared and brought into fruition.

Whether you like it or not, and whether it turns out well or not, the Egyptian people have the right to live under a government of their own choosing.

If it turns out to be a poor government, well, then so be it.  They can do this again until they get it right.



What if the government of their choosing, and I am not for one second conceding that that is what will occur as a result of violent overthrow, happens to be a fanatical Islamist nutcase regime headed by the father group of all Islamic terror organizations, the Muslim Brotherhood?

Violent revolutions do not necessarily reflect the People's choice.  In fact, it usually means the group with next most prepared thug organization.  See Iran.


--------------------

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Offlinebroken
455 member(s)
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Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 14,063
Loc: fuckyeah!
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Egypt [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13875732 - 01/30/11 10:07 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

WOW! Zappa i knew you where a little twisted in the head, but your straight up fucking nuts!


--------------------
:willynilly:

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Egypt [Re: broken]
    #13875749 - 01/30/11 10:13 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

closed veil said:
WOW! Zappa i knew you where a little twisted in the head, but your straight up fucking nuts!



Well that was brilliant.  Read a history book and stop going to so many Sophomores for Revolution meetings.

How did Iran turn out?


--------------------

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Offlinebroken
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Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 14,063
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Re: Egypt [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13875818 - 01/30/11 10:32 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

what the hell are you talking about!


--------------------
:willynilly:

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Egypt [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13875853 - 01/30/11 10:43 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
My country fights back against murdering scum.  Your country surrenders to them.  Again and again and again.  Where's the carbecue tonight?





My question is, if they are that scummy why do we do any business at all with them?  You know, oil and all that?  Why don't we just leave them over there and forget them unless they attack our shores?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Egypt [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #13875966 - 01/30/11 11:17 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Do we not have friends over there who aren't murdering scum? 

Nations that have not been taken over by murdering scum

Saudi Arabia
Kuwait
Jordan
Israel
Iraq (crosses fingers)
Egypt (yet)

Nations that have:

Iran
Syria
Lebanon
Gaza

Should we not try to protect our interests by protecting our friends? 

Isolationism is fucking retarded.

In the days of the Iraqi sanctions when Saddam was bribing several countries in the oil for food scandal who was the biggest recipient?  Fucking Feckless France, Home of the World Famous Reverse Tank and Carbecue.


--------------------

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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,289
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Last seen: 9 days, 4 hours
Re: Egypt [Re: DieCommie]
    #13875981 - 01/30/11 11:19 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
'Poor' government?  I dont get your point here.




I mean, if it turns out to be a government that does not meet their needs.

Government exists to safeguard the people.

If whatever government that comes of this mess does not do that, either internally or externally, it would be bad.

I mean from their perspective, not ours.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,289
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Re: Egypt [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13875991 - 01/30/11 11:21 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Sure, it's plausible.

It was also plausible, and assumed by many, that the American experiment in democracy would collapse under it's own weight almost as soon as it was declared and brought into fruition.

Whether you like it or not, and whether it turns out well or not, the Egyptian people have the right to live under a government of their own choosing.

If it turns out to be a poor government, well, then so be it.  They can do this again until they get it right.



What if the government of their choosing, and I am not for one second conceding that that is what will occur as a result of violent overthrow, happens to be a fanatical Islamist nutcase regime headed by the father group of all Islamic terror organizations, the Muslim Brotherhood?

Violent revolutions do not necessarily reflect the People's choice.  In fact, it usually means the group with next most prepared thug organization.  See Iran.




I still submit that you can not force a group of people to live under a government that YOU like and THEY do not.

It is not your choice.

Imposing a government on a people only breeds even more resentment than already exists, further polluting the waters of friendship and diplomacy and, quite possibly, leading to the exact situation (an extremely hostile dictatorship) that you are trying to avoid.

See : The Shah.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Egypt [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #13876050 - 01/30/11 11:32 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Sure, it's plausible.

It was also plausible, and assumed by many, that the American experiment in democracy would collapse under it's own weight almost as soon as it was declared and brought into fruition.

Whether you like it or not, and whether it turns out well or not, the Egyptian people have the right to live under a government of their own choosing.

If it turns out to be a poor government, well, then so be it.  They can do this again until they get it right.



What if the government of their choosing, and I am not for one second conceding that that is what will occur as a result of violent overthrow, happens to be a fanatical Islamist nutcase regime headed by the father group of all Islamic terror organizations, the Muslim Brotherhood?

Violent revolutions do not necessarily reflect the People's choice.  In fact, it usually means the group with next most prepared thug organization.  See Iran.




I still submit that you can not force a group of people to live under a government that YOU like and THEY do not.

It is not your choice.

Imposing a government on a people only breeds even more resentment than already exists, further polluting the waters of friendship and diplomacy and, quite possibly, leading to the exact situation (an extremely hostile dictatorship) that you are trying to avoid.

See : The Shah.



In neither Egygpt nor Iran did the US impose a government on the people.  At any time.  The US did not install the Shah.  That is a fallacious notion of the omnipotence of the US government, which you should have been disabused of long ago.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Egypt [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13876086 - 01/30/11 11:38 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Do we not have friends over there who aren't murdering scum? 

Nations that have not been taken over by murdering scum

Saudi Arabia
Kuwait
Jordan
Israel
Iraq (crosses fingers)
Egypt (yet)

Nations that have:

Iran
Syria
Lebanon
Gaza

Should we not try to protect our interests by protecting our friends? 

Isolationism is fucking retarded.

In the days of the Iraqi sanctions when Saddam was bribing several countries in the oil for food scandal who was the biggest recipient?  Fucking Feckless France, Home of the World Famous Reverse Tank and Carbecue.





I'm not saying isolationism overall. I'm asking are we doing business with any of the scum countries and if we are then why?

I can also see protecting our democratic friends in the region if they are attacked.  But why did we need to invade  Iraq at the time we did?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Egypt [Re: Icelander]
    #13876163 - 01/30/11 11:56 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Do we not have friends over there who aren't murdering scum? 

Nations that have not been taken over by murdering scum

Saudi Arabia
Kuwait
Jordan
Israel
Iraq (crosses fingers)
Egypt (yet)

Nations that have:

Iran
Syria
Lebanon
Gaza

Should we not try to protect our interests by protecting our friends? 

Isolationism is fucking retarded.

In the days of the Iraqi sanctions when Saddam was bribing several countries in the oil for food scandal who was the biggest recipient?  Fucking Feckless France, Home of the World Famous Reverse Tank and Carbecue.





I'm not saying isolationism overall. I'm asking are we doing business with any of the scum countries and if we are then why?




I don't think we do other than some possible humanitarian aid in Gaza and Lebanon.
Quote:



I can also see protecting our democratic friends in the region if they are attacked.  But why did we need to invade  Iraq at the time we did?




You mean the second time?  Because they were not in compliance with the terms of their surrender.  We shouldn't have finished Saddam the first time but we gave him a chance to reform.  He didn't.  What a fucking surprise.  Let's also not forget that he had almost quite successfully bribed 3/5ths of the UN Security Council.  That and our level of tolerance for bullshit from these fuckers was at an all time low.


--------------------

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InvisibleBatty Koda
Stranger
Male


Registered: 08/16/09
Posts: 192
Loc: england, yorkshire Flag
Re: Egypt [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13876400 - 01/30/11 12:45 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Someone has been reading the Jerusalem Post a little too much.

The CIA is behind this, surprise, surprise. Dr Mohomed ElBaradei has travelled form his residence in Vienna to Egypt to join the protests, he is being lauded as the most likely candidate for leading a new government by the media. In other words he's the CIA's man in Egypt, he's on the board of an NGO called the International Crisis Group along with George Soros Wesley Clark and Zbigniew Brzezinski. The ICG was active in supporting the Redshirts in Thailand during the trouble there.

Cables released by Wikileaks show that the CIA has been actively supporting the revolutionary groups in Egypt for the past three years. Granted, Mubarak was a stooge for the anglo-american empire, he was dependant on western aid and would please his masters to keep it. But the anglo-american empire obviously had bigger plans.

Maybe they are trying to gain even more power over these puppet arab governments? Maybe they are trying to create a bloc of radical Sunni fundementalist nations to play against Iran? Maybe they are worried that these leaders are passing power to their sons instead of an election taking place (an election that could be manipulated by western powers to in install another loyal puppet.), if their sons don't play ball it would be difficult to get rid of them.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,289
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Last seen: 9 days, 4 hours
Re: Egypt [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13876401 - 01/30/11 12:45 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Sure, it's plausible.

It was also plausible, and assumed by many, that the American experiment in democracy would collapse under it's own weight almost as soon as it was declared and brought into fruition.

Whether you like it or not, and whether it turns out well or not, the Egyptian people have the right to live under a government of their own choosing.

If it turns out to be a poor government, well, then so be it.  They can do this again until they get it right.



What if the government of their choosing, and I am not for one second conceding that that is what will occur as a result of violent overthrow, happens to be a fanatical Islamist nutcase regime headed by the father group of all Islamic terror organizations, the Muslim Brotherhood?

Violent revolutions do not necessarily reflect the People's choice.  In fact, it usually means the group with next most prepared thug organization.  See Iran.





I still submit that you can not force a group of people to live under a government that YOU like and THEY do not.

It is not your choice.

Imposing a government on a people only breeds even more resentment than already exists, further polluting the waters of friendship and diplomacy and, quite possibly, leading to the exact situation (an extremely hostile dictatorship) that you are trying to avoid.

See : The Shah.



In neither Egygpt nor Iran did the US impose a government on the people.  At any time.  The US did not install the Shah.  That is a fallacious notion of the omnipotence of the US government, which you should have been disabused of long ago.





They unequivocally supported and propped up said government, however.

Imposing was the wrong word.

But I think you know what I meant.

It's THEIR government, not YOURS.

If the way THEIR government, whatever it should end up being, affects YOU, then you can choose to either support it or not.

But to take the stance that THEY do not deserve to choose THEIR government is ridiculous and outrageous.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisibleByrain


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 9,664
Re: Egypt [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13876631 - 01/30/11 01:20 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Do we not have friends over there who aren't murdering scum? 

Nations that have not been taken over by murdering scum

Saudi Arabia
Kuwait
Jordan
Israel
Iraq (crosses fingers)
Egypt (yet)

Nations that have:

Iran
Syria
Lebanon
Gaza




Lol...  Israel doesn't, but Gaza does? Do you know anything about those countries at all?  Or you just parroting some propaganda?  Mind sharing it for a laugh? :lol:

Also, you're missing some African countries for your second list and of course that big one right below Canada and right above Mexico. :smile:

Edit:  Who is "we"?

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Do we not



Edited by Byrain (01/30/11 01:26 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Egypt [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #13876812 - 01/30/11 01:53 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:


They unequivocally supported and propped up said government, however.




I wouldn't even use "propped up".  And why shouldn't the US have supported a non-commie regime when the alternative was a Soviet puppet?
Quote:



Imposing was the wrong word.

But I think you know what I meant.




We aren't the only ones reading.  I wouldn't want all the li'l chilluns to get the false idea that we are even capable of doing it. 
Quote:



It's THEIR government, not YOURS.




Ummmmm, whose?  That is my point.  I see zero indication that the people of Egypt are going to have any more say in their government 1 year from now than they did 1 year ago.
Quote:



If the way THEIR government, whatever it should end up being, affects YOU, then you can choose to either support it or not.




It will be somebody's government, that's for sure and I sure do hope it isn't one that will roll back decades of Egyptian peace with Israel and its neighbors or that will fuck with the Suez Canal.
Quote:



But to take the stance that THEY do not deserve to choose THEIR government is ridiculous and outrageous.




I didn't take that stance.  My stance is that it is naive to believe that the people are going to get any better or that it will be more attuned to their wishes.  Except for the Muslim Brotherhood they are completely disorganized.  The big question that will be answered in the coming days is whether the army will allow whomever arises to take the country.  THAT'S whose country it is.


--------------------

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Egypt [Re: Byrain]
    #13876829 - 01/30/11 01:56 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Byrain said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Do we not have friends over there who aren't murdering scum? 

Nations that have not been taken over by murdering scum

Saudi Arabia
Kuwait
Jordan
Israel
Iraq (crosses fingers)
Egypt (yet)

Nations that have:

Iran
Syria
Lebanon
Gaza




Lol...  Israel doesn't, but Gaza does? Do you know anything about those countries at all?  Or you just parroting some propaganda?  Mind sharing it for a laugh? :lol:




Israel defends itself from Gaza attacks.  Inconvenient facts for you.
Quote:



Also, you're missing some African countries for your second list and of course that big one right below Canada and right above Mexico. :smile:




It was region specific in response to Icelander's query.  Try doing all the reading before you come to class next time.
Quote:



Edit:  Who is "we"?

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Do we not







Try doing all the reading before you come to class next time.


--------------------

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Egypt [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #13876863 - 01/30/11 02:02 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
'Poor' government?  I dont get your point here.




I mean, if it turns out to be a government that does not meet their needs.

Government exists to safeguard the people.

If whatever government that comes of this mess does not do that, either internally or externally, it would be bad.

I mean from their perspective, not ours.




Supposing that government is there to 'safeguard the people' is projecting your perspective, not theirs.  Otherwise, Im not sure what your point is.  There is a good chance they will just install another dictator that doesn't support our version of human rights and representative government.  I dont really care if their version of human rights differs from mine.

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