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OfflineLearyfanS
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Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents
    #13857969 - 01/27/11 02:02 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The next time someone tries to convince you that socialized health care is a bad thing because you have to wait forever to receive live-saving surgeries, I want you to remember this story.  This is heartless treatment you get from for-profit health insurance companies.  This story makes me sad on molecular level. 






Quote:

2 Cents May Mean the Difference Between Receiving Lifesaving Surgery or Not
Vet Cannot Afford the Stem Cell Transplant He Needs After Losing His Insurance Over a 2 Cent Error -- When Questioned Ceridian Reinstates Insurance

By BEN FORER
Jan. 26, 2011

What can make the difference between receiving a potentially lifesaving surgery or not?

For Vietnam veteran Ronald Flanagan, Ceridian Cobra Services determined it's 2 cents.

Flanagan has multiple myeloma, cancer of the bone marrow, which he has been fighting since September 2008. He now needs a third stem cell transplant surgery but had lost his health coverage over a 2 cent error.

Ceridian Cobra Services, an insurance benefits administrator, dropped Ron Flanagan after his wife, Frances Flanagan, said she mistakenly substituted a 7 for a 9 when she paid their monthly health insurance premium of $328.69 online.

"If I only had just hit the 9 instead of the 7," Frances Flanagan told ABC News' Denver affiliate, KMGH-TV. "Everybody we talk to is very surprised that 2 cents is enough to do this."

And as of today, what 2 cents was able to undo, ABC News was able to help redo. When ABC News called Ceridian to comment on the story the company delivered unexpected news.

"We've reviewed the situation thoroughly," said Bart Valdez, Chief Commercial Officer for Ceridian. "And we're pleased to say...Mr. Flannigan's insurance coverage was reinstated."

When asked whether he would offer Flannigan an apology, Valdez said, "For what specifically? ... We followed the normal procedures that were in complete compliance with the law and with regualtions."

Doctors at Presbyterian/St. Luke's Medical Center in Denver, where Ron Flanagan was undergoing treatment, had a stem cell donor at the ready and had told Flanagan they needed to complete the transplant before the end of February, that was before he lost his insurance. As of today Flanagan is trying to get back on the transplant list.

Flanagan was at the hospital preparing for a bone biopsy when his wife orignally delivered the disappointing news.

"The nurses were just getting ready to do the biopsy when my wife popped into the office and told them, 'Stop. We don't have any insurance,'" Flanagan told KMGH.

Ceridian's First Statement

In a written statement to KMGH prior to be contacted by ABC News, Ceridian said, "We did not receive a full and timely payment and [Mrs. Flanagan] was provided several notices of the shortage and a grace period reminder notice on the last invoice, along with extended grace dates as provided for under COBRA regulations.

"Since the payment was not full," the statement continues, "it fit into the definition in the regulations of an 'insufficient payment.' ... Ceridian understands nothing is more important than one's health. ... Unfortunately, we simply do not have the capacity to be able to personally call continuants and remind them of the status of their Cobra benefits."

"They never did a certified letter," said Ron Flanagan. "They never made a phone call. As far as I'm concerned, they're looking for a way to drop you."

Flanagan said he and his wife only received a December billing statement that showed the 2 cent shortage. But it was not clear to them that payment was past due, and they did not include the 2 cents in their December payment, which they paid in full.

Aside from delaying Flanagan's surgery, the 2 cent gap caused his wife mental anguish.

"I've been depressed. I haven't been able to hardly do anything," said Frances Flanagan. "We still have our Christmas decorations up. It's been hard on me," she said. "I spoke to my sister-in-law, and that's when I broke down. And I told her I feel like it's all my fault."

Tonight Frances Flanagan can rest easy free knowing her husband will get the care he needs.

(http://abcnews.go.com/)















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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents [Re: Learyfan]
    #13858102 - 01/27/11 03:07 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents

""We've reviewed the situation thoroughly and we're pleased to say [that] Mr. Flannigan's insurance coverage was reinstated."

Umm... your title is a bit misleading.  The Vietnam cancer patient still has insurance.

> This is heartless treatment you get from for-profit health insurance companies.

Oh, boohoo.  Pay your bill if you want to keep your insurance.  Pretty simple.

> The next time someone tries to convince you that socialized health care is a bad thing

You haven't addressed anything at all about socialized health care.  Apparently you are another person that does not understand the fundamental difference between healthcare and health insurance.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents [Re: Seuss]
    #13858130 - 01/27/11 03:21 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The title of the thread is not misleading.  This man, who fought for this country and was exposed to Agent Orange in Vietnam, lost his insurance.  His insurance was ONLY reinstated because ABC News called them on it.  I'm sure there are thousands of other people who weren't so lucky.  And they did pay their bill.  The wife accidentally left off TWO FUCKING CENTS. 

"Boohoo"?  Seuss, how could you be so cold about this?  :sad:












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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents [Re: Learyfan]
    #13858146 - 01/27/11 03:35 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> "Boohoo"?  Seuss, how could you be so cold about this?  :sad:

How am I cold?  The dude has insurance.  There is no travesty here.  The world is full of horror that makes this look like a spoiled child whining about dinner.  How can you be so cold to ignore all those that are suffering that don't help your lefty agenda?

> His insurance was ONLY reinstated because ABC News called them on it

Unless you have more information than you are sharing, then you don't know this.  What did the couple do to try and get their insurance reinstated before ABC got the story?

Why do you believe the couple, that they were never informed of the missing payment, and not the insurance company that claims they sent out several notices of the shortage and a gave the couple a grace period reminder notice on the last invoice?  People tend to lie.  Billing departments with automated billing procedures have no reason to lie.  I can't imagine that they are the only people in history to have mis-payed their bill, yet they are the only ones screaming bloody murder.  I wonder why...

> "I've been depressed. I haven't been able to hardly do anything," said Frances Flanagan.

Hmmm... sounds like somebody is preparing for a lawsuit.

If I miss paying my phone bill in full and ignore the notices they send, then they cancel my phone contract.  Same goes for my car insurance.  Same goes for my house loan.  Why should my health insurance be any different?  If it should be different, where do you draw the line.  You only have to pay 50% of it?  10%?  A dollar?

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents [Re: Seuss]
    #13858199 - 01/27/11 04:25 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

You would really let this man die for 2 cents, wouldn't you?













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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents [Re: Learyfan]
    #13858222 - 01/27/11 04:48 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> You would really let this man die for 2 cents, wouldn't you?

A bit of a strawman; what do I have to do with anything?  The guy has his insurance again, thus my involvement is irrelevant.  My opinion, not that it matters, is had the guy taken care of his underpayment within the grace period provided by his insurance company, none of this would be an issue.  There is only one person at fault here, and that is the person that failed to correctly pay their bill.

I noticed that you avoided answering all of the questions I asked.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents [Re: Seuss]
    #13858267 - 01/27/11 05:20 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Seuss makes great points here, as usual.

Another thing worth recalling is that this is not some "life or death" decision where the treatment is needed to save him but the hospital doors are shut to him.  No, this is a complicated therapy that tries to regrow marrow in order to offer a marginal increase in survival rate (depending on factors which this article doesn't provide- though its worth noting that no claim this therapy was routine standard-of-care treatment was made, so there's no reason to presume this).

I agree that claims made by the OP are deceptive.  In addition to what Seuss has said, I note that this anecdote has not compared the results he would have had under the various healthcare systems extant today or those proposed.  How can he, therefore, claim this as a disadvantage of any particular healthcare system when he's not shown there would have been any difference under any other system?

I notice this a lot: people raise an objection to a particular system but don't apply that same criteria to all possible systems.  In such a case, how can you say the objection is at all illuminating?  Isn't it just an anecdotal report which could be typical amongst all systems?  Seems so to me.

Finally, the OP's contentions are misleading in another way.  Despite the paucity of data present in this article explaining just what went down, I note that the patient himself claims it was them, not the doctors, hospital, insurance company, or Obama, that declined treatment:

"The nurses were just getting ready to do the biopsy when my wife popped into the office and told them, 'Stop. We don't have any insurance,'" Flanagan told KMGH.

So wait, just what is the complaint here?  That a man was denied treatment for a possibly-experimental (article doesn't give enough information to tell) treatment?  Or That a man was going to have to pay the bill for a possibly-experimental treatment?

Yeah... now who is it who's putting dollars and cents over patients' lives again?


Edit:

Quote:

You would really let this man die for 2 cents, wouldn't you?




Please explain how this question is relevant?  Even ignoring the strawman argument seuss rightly identified, your claim seems to be that cancelling the policy is "letting him die".  Please explain how you justify this.

Edited by johnm214 (01/27/11 06:47 AM)

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents [Re: Learyfan] * 1
    #13858354 - 01/27/11 06:15 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
You would really let this man die for 2 cents, wouldn't you?






I'd personally kill him for 2 cents but they better be very special cents

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13859280 - 01/27/11 11:19 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

$328.69 for an insurance policy that covers this:
Quote:

Flanagan has multiple myeloma, cancer of the bone marrow, which he has been fighting since September 2008. He now needs a third stem cell transplant surgery.




Fuckin A what a steal.  Of course, if there was socialized health care ala Kanuckistan or GB they would wait 12 months to approve it.  Or maybe not.  Maybe they'd just start measuring him.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents [Re: Seuss]
    #13861495 - 01/27/11 05:40 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Suess, I didn't mean to ignore your questions.  I just......don't know what to say.  I honestly thought this thread would go a different way.  I thought my right wing Shroomerites would say "Yeah, what a bunch of pricks, BUT socialized medicine is still bullshit".  I was completely caught off guard by the fact that you guys defend this altogether.  So let's just agree to disagree again, because I'm at a loss for words. 

But just to let you know, a prominent, long-time Canadian Shroomerite told me that she has never had to wait more than a half an hour or wait to see a doctor.  She told me that she had skin cancer, did chemo for a year and had to pay less than 10% of the cost.  Her father also had emergency surgery and paid nothing for the ambulance, hospital time or anything else. 











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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents [Re: Learyfan] * 1
    #13861521 - 01/27/11 05:44 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

No offense to you guys, but could a Mod or Admin please move this thread to The Pub?  I'd really like to see if anyone else is as appalled as I am over there.  I refuse to believe I'm the only one who is shocked by the greed and lack of humanity in this case. 

:suicide:












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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents [Re: Learyfan]
    #13861621 - 01/27/11 05:56 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

What's the fucking problem?  He has dirt cheap insurance paying his huge bills that us crazy fucking rightwingers think might well be chopped on either the waiting list or on the efficacy list if there was socialized medicine.  That you lefties think you'll get everything you want when a government beancounting bureaucrat decides is, to us, the height of insanity.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13862793 - 01/27/11 09:11 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
$328.69 for an insurance policy that covers this:
Quote:

Flanagan has multiple myeloma, cancer of the bone marrow, which he has been fighting since September 2008. He now needs a third stem cell transplant surgery.




Fuckin A what a steal.





I paid that much and have no preexisting conditions, my blood work came back
showing a guy in great health, a little low in the calcium department but
still within the norms and the physical they put me through showed I was in
great shape with few risk factors for heart issues

of course the insurance company's death panel says that once they spend
$3mil in keeping me alive they have to cut  their losses and let me pass
away... I can understand that

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents [Re: Learyfan]
    #13862808 - 01/27/11 09:14 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:

But just to let you know, a prominent, long-time Canadian Shroomerite told me that she has never had to wait more than a half an hour or wait to see a doctor.  She told me that she had skin cancer, did chemo for a year and had to pay less than 10% of the cost.





I thought their health care was completely free, seems the canadians have been bending the truth

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13863075 - 01/27/11 10:13 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
I thought their health care was completely free, seems the canadians have been bending the truth




I guess some procedures cost a little.  But still, 10% of a lengthy skin cancer surgery and treatment doesn't sound bad.  But anyway, you missed the point of the story.  Could you please send this thread to The Pub, Pris?













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Re: Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents [Re: Prisoner#1] * 1
    #13863128 - 01/27/11 10:23 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Of course the patient declined tx. I'm sure had he not he would have to had claimed bankruptcy. He really is a dumb bastard though. There is a very easy way to circumvent this problem. He should have taken a trip to Tijuana, swam the Rio grand to get back to the states, claimed he was illegal, and then gotten free health care. Maybe like Obamas aunt he could've defied the orders of a federal judge, stayed here illegally, collected benefits in the form of free housing, free food, free healthcare, free tuition for her son, and of course the free surgery she got while staying here illegally. Had he a uterus he could have also given birth to an anchor child for the american taxpayer to fund, as a bonus.

This sorry ass did it all wrong, he most likely worked and paid into the system his whole life, and put his very existence on the line to serve our country in a time of war, all the while inhaling vast quantities of carcinogenic herbicides for his country. I'd personally  hold all those responsible at the insurance company's heads under water so I could watch them drown. I would then sell their corpses to a bath house in San Francisco to be used as a Sodomite dead human love toy, the proceeds of which could pay of the all important two fucking cents.

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Re: Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents [Re: Therian] * 1
    #13864068 - 01/28/11 01:14 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I know NOTHING of the US system, so I won't argue it. 

I will say that I very much appreciate the health care system in Canada.  I do not mind paying through my taxes to provide necessary care to anyone.  Some are more or less fortunate when it comes to health.  The unhealthy are at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to money.  Ever try to pay you bills on time while cancer is ravaging your body?  It seems some people believe that if you have money it MUST mean that you are a good and worthy person.  That you deserve care ABOVE others.  Just because a person is broke does NOT mean they have not done any good for society, if that is what it takes to DESERVE health.   

I am even ok with an irresponsible lunatic getting his self inflicted 'methbug' site infections or PCP wounds treated for free. If that makes me a compassionate idiot, I can live with that. 

I am certain that much of these reported waits could be alleviated by reducing bureaucratic hold-ups(which I agree, Canada has too many in most public services) AND shit does happen in the best of any systems.  That said, for myself, my friends, my family; I have never seen treatment withheld or postponed awaiting approval.  My Mothers breast Cancer was dealt with quickly.  My fathers umpteen heart operations were swiftly diagnosed and treated.  I've been healthy till now, but NEVER waited long for a doctors appointment, blood work.  The only waits I hear of outside the media are for organs, organs that simply AREN'T available.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents [Re: Dickhead]
    #13864393 - 01/28/11 02:44 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Awebig said:

I am certain that much of these reported waits could be alleviated by reducing bureaucratic hold-ups(which I agree, Canada has too many in most public services) AND shit does happen in the best of any systems.  That said, for myself, my friends, my family; I have never seen treatment withheld or postponed awaiting approval.  My Mothers breast Cancer was dealt with quickly.  My fathers umpteen heart operations were swiftly diagnosed and treated.  I've been healthy till now, but NEVER waited long for a doctors appointment, blood work.  The only waits I hear of outside the media are for organs, organs that simply AREN'T available.





I've also never seen anyone be denied treatment due to payment or insurance for routine standard of care treatments, and I worked in a hospital.  The only people I saw denied that wanted a procedure or treatment and couldn't pay for it were ones that wanted some experimental treatment that wasn't proven or was still controversial (whether or not the doctor thinks it might help), or treatments that would not improve a critical life function (i.e. asthetic surgery and so forth- though even those I've seen covered charitably in particular cases).

I note that the person in this story states that they were the one who declined treatment, not the other way arround.  The dotors were all set to do the procedure, he says, when his wife comes into the room yelling to stop because they don't have insurance.  My rhetorical question would be just who is it that's putting dollars and cents over patient care in that instance?  Sounds like its the patient.


Quote:

Just because a person is broke does NOT mean they have not done any good for society, if that is what it takes to DESERVE health.   




Sure, but that's a big leap to then say that someone has a moral right to recieve care despite not being able to afford it. 

Quote:


I am even ok with an irresponsible lunatic getting his self inflicted 'methbug' site infections or PCP wounds treated for free. If that makes me a compassionate idiot, I can live with that. 





Sure, me too.  Unlike zappa, who apparently regards illnesses and diseases as defined morally as well as pathologically and who claims that an illness is something that happened to you rather than something that occured as a result of your actions (which would exclude pretty much everyone in the hospitals from the category of ill- a bizzare claim), I regard the cause of the condition incidental to the appropriate treatment. 

What I don' understand, however; is how that person, whether he's an amphetamine abuser or someone who had a hearattack, has some moral right to my money as a result of his situation?  Moreover, how does the hospital and doctors have a moral right to provide for that person?  I find it odd that these are the people who've donated their life's work to carring for others and so forth yet it is they who are the first to be burdened with these morall arguments.  Hey, they're actually doing something to help people and heal them, that they decided to pursue that line of work means that they owe some debt to society whereas some other guy who is sitting on his ass does not?

I don't regard the moral questions here as very dispositive of this issue.  Shit happens.  I think the best way to handle it is to try and gradually get rid of the government restrictions on a patient and practitioner's choices and restore a free market.  Right now, much of the expense comes from a system that has established a high bar for the standard of care that is simply unaffordable for some. To me, THAT is the moral delema:  that some are denied treatment because they don't have the money to pay for what the law regards as the bare minimum in standard of care whereas they would be able to pay for a lesser standard- perhaps recieved by a practitioner who's not a physician or without worrying about what might be the theoretical best course of action and focusing on what is affordable and possible.

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Re: Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents [Re: johnm214]
    #13864466 - 01/28/11 03:13 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> What I don' understand, however; is how that person, whether he's an amphetamine abuser or someone who had a hearattack, has some moral right to my money as a result of his situation? 

Simply put, In Canada at large, we choose to provide that 'right' to eachother, just as we built the roads, sewage, and public school for the good of all Canadians.

>Moreover, how does the hospital and doctors have a moral right to provide for that person?

In Canada; because they get paid irregardless. That is a good reason WHY medicare is good.  Staff do not have to burden themselves with guilt from walking away; Or resenting a patient, because they WON'T get paid, if they do treat them. Doctors are NOT philosopers. Nor did they spend 8+ years to go broke treating without pay.  A pay for necessary care FORCES that choice on the doctors as much as the irresponsible poor sick person is by being hurt or sick.

Quote:

Just because a person is broke does NOT mean they have not done any good for society, if that is what it takes to DESERVE health.   




>Sure, but that's a big leap to then say that someone has a moral right to recieve care despite not being able to afford it. 

I don't believe they have a 'Moral Right'.  I just don't have ANY beef when they do.  Just to observe the flip side, why BECAUSE some one can afford it, do they have a 'MORAL right' to get fixed up?  Back robbers, extortionists, crooked officials, violent gangsters all gots mad dough; Do they DESERVE it over a a loveable kid with Downes Syndrome and no job?
 
The world will NEVER be fair. The best we can do IMO is provide for all when it comes to health care.


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Re: Cancer patient and Vietnam vet loses insurance over 2 cents [Re: Dickhead]
    #13864674 - 01/28/11 05:35 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Awebig said:
  My Mothers breast Cancer was dealt with quickly.





my grandmother has been in erlanger 5 times for cancer, she's had heavy
exposure to several carcinogens including asbestos, she also was treated
quickly, been through chemo and all kinds of other crap, she's never paid
anything out of pocket for any of her medical care

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