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InvisibleFlop Johnson
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The State of The Union Address
    #13850335 - 01/25/11 08:20 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Transcontinental high-speed trains, promotion of business, education, clean energy, research, freezing gov't spending, better cell phone reception, pulling out of Iraq, etc. etc.

Think any of that will actually come true?

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OfflineDivinity
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Flop Johnson]
    #13850416 - 01/25/11 08:28 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Doubt it.
Nothing came from last years address(at least that Im aware of.)


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InvisibleChinChiller
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Divinity]
    #13850429 - 01/25/11 08:29 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Nothing ever does come true :cuteshit:

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OfflineTNK
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: ChinChiller]
    #13851689 - 01/26/11 12:10 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Nothing came from last years address




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Edited by TNK (02/22/22 22:22 PM)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Flop Johnson] * 1
    #13852164 - 01/26/11 03:47 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> Think any of that will actually come true?

Just the spending part.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflineJT
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Seuss]
    #13852178 - 01/26/11 03:56 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Except that he has yet to really make any commitments to spending cuts. He mentioned spending 5x more in the address than cutting.

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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: JT]
    #13852654 - 01/26/11 08:44 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Something's amiss. In the Tea Party Response, Michelle Bachmann was staring at something other than the camera throughout the entire speech.

And it couldn't have been a teleprompter, because no Republican would ever use one.

What was it?

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: jimbotron]
    #13852794 - 01/26/11 09:32 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> And it couldn't have been a teleprompter, because no Republican would ever use one.

I assume you are trying to be funny?  I've seen plenty of Republican's use a teleprompter.  If you are alluding to those that make fun of Obama for his teleprompter addiction, then you are comparing apples to oranges.  There is a huge difference between not using a teleprompter and being unable to speak coherently without one.  Clinton often used a teleprompter, but he could speak intelligently without one.  Obama, on the other hand, sounds like a stuttering fool when you take away his teleprompter.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Seuss]
    #13852901 - 01/26/11 09:57 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I was thinking that he thinks the media has already destroyed Sarah Palin and so now Michelle Bachmann scares him? :shrug:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Offlinethe_drummer
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: jimbotron]
    #13852914 - 01/26/11 10:00 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said:
Something's amiss. In the Tea Party Response, Michelle Bachmann was staring at something other than the camera throughout the entire speech.

And it couldn't have been a teleprompter, because no Republican would ever use one.

What was it?





Cue cards.



And to answer OP's question: NO.


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"That's the vernacular, isn't it?" --Mrs. Peel

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: the_drummer]
    #13852980 - 01/26/11 10:13 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Obama said the first thing he'd do when elected Pres was pull all our troops out of Iraq in 2008 and all our troops out of Afghanistan by 2011.

He did that right?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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InvisibleFlop Johnson
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: lonestar2004]
    #13853118 - 01/26/11 10:40 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

yeah man we withdrew from iraq.. sort of...

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Flop Johnson]
    #13853233 - 01/26/11 10:59 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Flop Johnson said:
Transcontinental high-speed trains, promotion of business, education, clean energy, research, freezing gov't spending, better cell phone reception, pulling out of Iraq, etc. etc.

Think any of that will actually come true?



High speed trains-  What?  AMTRAK bankruptcy wasn't enough proof that it is unwanted?
Promotion of business-  Sure.  I like that.  First step, repeal that health care law.  Second step, cut capital gains taxes.  Third remove all sweetheart tax deals for companies involved in widget waxing that were incorporated in Los Cruces on Nov 25 1989.  The tax code is loaded with that kind of shit.  Fourth, eliminate matching soc sec and MC MA from companies.  Let the people see just how much they are paying.  Right now half of the cost is hidden.  Stop telling businesses that they are evil if they make money.  That includes the banks.  I could go on.  I doubt any of those fit the Obama profile of "promotion" however.
Education- Get the federal government the fuck out of it.  They are incompetent and it is stupid to apply the same methods to every single state.  They have different needs.
Clean energy-  The whole wind and solar business is total bullshit and could be handled by private industry.  We need fusion.  That's it.  That is the one thing that might be too big for private industry to tackle and that will reap benefits.  If we do not come up with reasonable fusion in the next hundred years we are going to be well and truly fucked.  Well not us, because we will all be dead by then but humanity needs it.  Nice job shutting down the Super conducting Super collider project, assholes.
Research-  The only research they should be doing is listed directly above.  Everything else should be left to venture people.  Not bureaucrat retards.
Freezing spending-  Given all of the spending plans I just poopooed what the fuck does he think he's going to freeze?  Government ice cream factories?
Better cell phone reception-  ??????WTF??????  Switch carriers, dude.  Mine is great.  Why exactly is this the government's business?
Pulling out of Iraq-  Soon.  They're doing so-so.  Birthing pains but not too bad, not too bad.


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InvisibleFlop Johnson
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13853418 - 01/26/11 11:32 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with most everything you said except research.

If the gov't is so incompetent at doing R&D then why does all the best technology come from the military?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Flop Johnson]
    #13853439 - 01/26/11 11:36 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Not that I'm gong to accede your point about where the best research comes from but the military does almost none of that.  They pay companies to do it.  Sometimes they give the companies a mission and sometimes the companies see a need and do it on their own.  The military doesn't even make it's own shit.  It buys it.  Thank Zappa.  They may get ripped off from time to time but it sure beats the cornhole we would get if they did it themselves.


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InvisibleFlop Johnson
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13853484 - 01/26/11 11:44 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

If you're paying a private company to do research - or expound on existing research - wouldn't that still qualify as "government funded research"?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Flop Johnson]
    #13853564 - 01/26/11 11:57 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

There is a difference between funding and doing.  There is also a difference between federal funding of military research and federal funding of the migratory habits of the prothonatory warbler.  One is a legitimate and mandatory function of the federal government and the other is complete bullshit that should be funded by hobbyists who give a shit.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13853609 - 01/26/11 12:04 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Better cell phone reception-  ??????WTF??????  Switch carriers, dude.  Mine is great.  Why exactly is this the government's business?

.




was he really talking about that?

jesus


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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InvisibleFlop Johnson
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13853635 - 01/26/11 12:09 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There is a difference between funding and doing.  There is also a difference between federal funding of military research and federal funding of the migratory habits of the prothonatory warbler.  One is a legitimate and mandatory function of the federal government and the other is complete bullshit that should be funded by hobbyists who give a shit.



Sure, but Obama was talking about funding clean energy research.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Flop Johnson]
    #13853688 - 01/26/11 12:17 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Like I said, the only clean energy research the government should be funding is fusion.  So far it is a total pile of bullshit, vast sums flushed down a toilet to subsidize shit that is only marginally useful and that only for restricted parts of the country.


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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: the_drummer]
    #13853757 - 01/26/11 12:29 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Transcontinental high-speed trains, promotion of business, education, clean energy, research, freezing gov't spending, better cell phone reception, pulling out of Iraq, etc. etc.




I see all of that possibly happening whether the feds get involved or not. :shrug:

But putting money into schools doing research on clean energy would probably be a good investment, if you were in a mood to spend tax money.


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You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Seuss]
    #13854013 - 01/26/11 01:15 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I assume you are trying to be funny?  I've seen plenty of Republican's use a teleprompter.  If you are alluding to those that make fun of Obama for his teleprompter addiction, then you are comparing apples to oranges.




Oh, I know. There's a clear black-and-white difference between Obama and every other president who ever used a teleprompter.

Quote:

Seuss said: Obama, on the other hand, sounds like a stuttering fool when you take away his teleprompter.




Three words:

"You forgot Poland!"*

Seriously... we are through the looking glass now. Next you'll tell me that you can't stand the way he mispronounces the word "nuclear".

*Not to mention, "Message: I Care."

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: jimbotron]
    #13854028 - 01/26/11 01:18 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> Next you'll tell me that you can't stand the way he mispronounces the word "nuclear".

Actually, it was Bush that annoyed me with his pronunciation of new-cue-ler.  I've not noticed it with uh, uh, um... uh, ah, uh, um... now hold on... uh, um... Obama.


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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Seuss]
    #13854074 - 01/26/11 01:27 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

It's called a verbal pause. Most people do them; generally, verbal ability is judged by whether there are actual thoughts in between, or word salad.



Also, did somebody send out a memo?

Reading through the comments on Daily Beast:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-01-21/paul-ryans-doomed-state-of-the-union-rebuttal/

Quote:

take him off the prompter and he's a stuttering fool.




Google images search for "Barack Obama teleprompter" brings me to this:


It's like the Mandelbrot set of right-wing memes. Once you know about it, you see it everywhere.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: jimbotron] * 1
    #13854226 - 01/26/11 01:50 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Or maybe it's just an accurate description.  What a fucking concept.


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InvisibleFlop Johnson
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13854391 - 01/26/11 02:20 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Like I said, the only clean energy research the government should be funding is fusion.  So far it is a total pile of bullshit, vast sums flushed down a toilet to subsidize shit that is only marginally useful and that only for restricted parts of the country.



I'm not an Obama-ite, but are you suggesting that research into clean energy is somehow pointless? You know we can't run on fossil fuels forever.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Flop Johnson]
    #13854480 - 01/26/11 02:33 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Flop Johnson said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Like I said, the only clean energy research the government should be funding is fusion.  So far it is a total pile of bullshit, vast sums flushed down a toilet to subsidize shit that is only marginally useful and that only for restricted parts of the country.



I'm not an Obama-ite, but are you suggesting that research into clean energy is somehow pointless? You know we can't run on fossil fuels forever.



Fusion.  It is the only hope.  Solar, wind, geo, all intrinsically inadequate and, frankly, not that fucking clean.  There is no way any of those will ever amount to shit.

There are plenty of private companies doing research into clean energy.  Lots and lots of them.  If they can make it work they will make money.  They are the most efficient allocators of funds.  Government bureaucrats are the least.  Unless the project is so huge that only a giant government entity can take on the risk it should be left to the competent entities.  Private business.


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InvisibleFlop Johnson
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13854513 - 01/26/11 02:40 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Fusion.  It is the only hope.



That's a pretty rash blanket statement.

I see where you're coming from, I just think there is some merit to government funded research.

For example, people give NASA shit, but the fact of the matter is that we would have never landed on the moon had space travel been left to private developers.

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OfflineTNK
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Flop Johnson] * 1
    #13854567 - 01/26/11 02:51 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Better cell phone reception-  ??????WTF??????  Switch carriers, dude.  Mine is great.  Why exactly is this the government's business?




I don't know about you guys but i would not feel comfortable having the American government be my cell phone provider,

:feelsbadman:


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Edited by TNK (02/22/22 22:22 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Flop Johnson]
    #13854607 - 01/26/11 02:58 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Flop Johnson said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Fusion.  It is the only hope.



That's a pretty rash blanket statement.

I see where you're coming from, I just think there is some merit to government funded research.

For example, people give NASA shit, but the fact of the matter is that we would have never landed on the moon had space travel been left to private developers.



That was 40 years ago and what, other than a truly glorious fuck you to the commies, did we get from it that we could not have gotten cheaper elsewhere?

I am 100% confident in that blanket statement.  Eventually there will be nothing left to dig, there isn't enough space for wind and solar nor does the wind always blow or the sun always shine.  Batteries are eco-evil like nobody's business and even the fucking curly light bulbs are bad.  China currently (but not for long) monopolize rare earths essential for all that crap, too, but there is a reason why no other country mines them.  It is very polluting.

I'm looking long term.  Really long.  We must make our own suns or be forever slave to what we can scavenge.


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InvisibleFlop Johnson
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13854756 - 01/26/11 03:24 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I think a long term solution lies in solar power and non-lithium nanobatteries. The university I went to is currently developing a type of battery (dubbed nanobattery, but of no relation to the Toshiba lithium nanobattery) that stores and releases energy at a 99% efficiency. It does this by stalling an exothermic reaction by storing the batteries at room temperature.

It's not finalized, but they don't require rare earths and the sun is plentiful.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Flop Johnson]
    #13854789 - 01/26/11 03:30 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

It doesn't matter.  There are too many people for it to ever be able to cover that kind of need.  You would have to blanket the planet with solar cells and the where would you grow food?  Not.  Practical.  Fringe pipe dream.


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InvisibleFlop Johnson
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13854806 - 01/26/11 03:33 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Why do you think we would have to blanket the planet in solar cells?

The reason they are not efficient is because we cannot figure out a way to properly harness and store the energy - it's not that the energy isn't there to be had. That's why I brought up the nanobattery technology - because if you can store and release energy at 99% efficieny, shit, even 75% efficiency, solar power would not only be practical it would be the obvious choice.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Flop Johnson]
    #13854817 - 01/26/11 03:34 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Flop Johnson said:
Why do you think we would have to blanket the planet in solar cells?




Pure volume
Quote:



The reason they are not efficient is because we cannot figure out a way to properly harness and store the energy - it's not that the energy isn't there to be had. That's why I brought up the nanobattery technology - because if you can store and release energy at 99% efficieny, shit, even 75% efficiency, solar power would not only be practical it would be the obvious choice.




You still have to collect it.


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InvisibleFlop Johnson
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13854837 - 01/26/11 03:37 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Okay, so how does researching solar cells not sound like a worthy endeavor? We know they work, they just aren't efficient enough yet. It's not like saying we want to put money into cold fusion or something - the science has been tested.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Flop Johnson]
    #13855141 - 01/26/11 04:30 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Flop Johnson said:
Okay, so how does researching solar cells not sound like a worthy endeavor? We know they work, they just aren't efficient enough yet. It's not like saying we want to put money into cold fusion or something - the science has been tested.



If they are worth doing industry will do it.

They aren't, by the way.  The science has been tested and found lacking.  Seriously, ask your professor or whoever how much surface area will have to be covered with solar cells in order to generate enough energy to replace fossil fuels plus nuclear.  All of Africa would be the beginning of my guess.

Just looked some shit up.  I think I have this correct.

There is 1.5 X 1014 sq M of land area on earth

We use 1.5 X 1013Watts

Not all of the landmass is suitable.  How the fuck are we ever going to get that kind of solar yield?  Not from cells.  We need to make our own suns.

Wind?  The sheer intrusiveness necessary to make a difference is mind boggling.  And what happens to the wind energy absorbed by the turbines?  Does that not impact the ecology?


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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13855308 - 01/26/11 05:07 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Just looked some shit up.  I think I have this correct.

There is 1.5 X 1014 sq M of land area on earth

We use 1.5 X 1013Watts

Not all of the landmass is suitable.  How the fuck are we ever going to get that kind of solar yield?  Not from cells.  We need to make our own suns.




What relation do those numbers and the sentences after have?

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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Chespirito]
    #13855371 - 01/26/11 05:18 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Chespirito said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Just looked some shit up.  I think I have this correct.

There is 1.5 X 1014 sq M of land area on earth

We use 1.5 X 1013Watts

Not all of the landmass is suitable.  How the fuck are we ever going to get that kind of solar yield?  Not from cells.  We need to make our own suns.




What relation do those numbers and the sentences after have?



:facepalm:

How much of the land mass of the earth are you going to have to cover to supply our energy use from solar cells? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaic_array


Cover the entire Sahara twice over with solar panels.  20 million sq Km.  Aint gonna happen.  Not even close.  Ever.


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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13855393 - 01/26/11 05:23 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I understood your point previously, however I was noting that you pulling out random data isn't going to help your argument.  You listed total land mass, then average power expended by the world.  Ok?  How do I then calculate how much landmass is needed to power the world from those numbers? 


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Chespirito]
    #13855436 - 01/26/11 05:30 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Look up the other numbers yourself?

According to what I cited your map is total bullshit.  Where did it come from?  Then there is the matter of storing all that energy and transmitting all that energy.  Solar is no solution.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Chespirito]
    #13855446 - 01/26/11 05:32 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

That map has a small part of the Sahara supplying all of Europe.  Can you imagine the size of the transmission lines needed for that?:flowstone:


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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13855466 - 01/26/11 05:35 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Well as they note, the ideal situation is to break that up heavily. The map is just for effect to show how much landmass one would need.  Of course there are questions inherent in it, such as what efficiency of solar cell are they contemplating, and what losses for batteries, transmission, etc... are they factoring in.  And what numbers did you quote?  Landmass and Wattage?  I feel like you don't understand how to calculate the number you're interested in...

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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Flop Johnson]
    #13855472 - 01/26/11 05:36 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Had to work doing the SOTU, but I signed up for Twitter feed and read about it while it was going on.  I'm optimistic for the future and hope it will be a good year for the U.S.  Obvious hurdles and hopefully we both sides can agree to better our country in various ways.

Edited by despisedicon (01/26/11 06:01 PM)

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Invisibledespisedicon
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: jimbotron]
    #13855492 - 01/26/11 05:40 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said:
Something's amiss. In the Tea Party Response, Michelle Bachmann was staring at something other than the camera throughout the entire speech.

And it couldn't have been a teleprompter, because no Republican would ever use one.

What was it?




LOL, obsessed much?  Nothing to say about the speech except throwing mundane shit at the Tea Party over a teleprompter.

Edited by despisedicon (01/26/11 05:59 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Chespirito]
    #13855506 - 01/26/11 05:41 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Chespirito said:
Well as they note, the ideal situation is to break that up heavily. The map is just for effect to show how much landmass one would need.  Of course there are questions inherent in it, such as what efficiency of solar cell are they contemplating, and what losses for batteries, transmission, etc... are they factoring in.  And what numbers did you quote?  Landmass and Wattage?  I feel like you don't understand how to calculate the number you're interested in...



I was just trying to get to a general ballpark realization.  And any citation of yield per sq M is way too variable to generalize.  That's why I avoided it.  You can't get the same yield in Alberta as you can in Arizona. 

Still, where did that map come from?  It is vastly different from wikipedia's calculation.  Vastly.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: despisedicon]
    #13855514 - 01/26/11 05:43 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

despisedicon said:
Quote:

jimbotron said:
Something's amiss. In the Tea Party Response, Michelle Bachmann was staring at something other than the camera throughout the entire speech.

And it couldn't have been a teleprompter, because no Republican would ever use one.

What was it?




LOL, obsessed much?  Nothing to say about the speech except throwing mundane shit at the Tea Pary over a teleprompter.



That's about as substantial as he ever gets.


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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13855558 - 01/26/11 05:51 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I dont know where those numbers came from, just found it shown in all the top search results on google.  As for wikipedia, how is this number different? 

"The unpopulated area of the Sahara desert is over 9 million km², which if covered with solar panels would provide 630 terawatts total power[citation needed]. The Earth's current energy consumption rate is around 13.5 TW at any given moment (including oil, gas, coal, nuclear, and hydroelectric)[citation needed]."

So the Sahara desert would produce 46.7 times as much power as the world needs.  It is 9*10^6 km^2 , so (9*10^6)/46.7 = 193k km^2.  The number on the map is more, probably because not everywhere is as sunny as the sahara desert.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Chespirito]
    #13855638 - 01/26/11 06:06 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Ah I think you're right.  I think I misread it because they changed the notation of the units. 

From the same link we get this
Quote:

A typical "150 watt" solar panel is about a square meter in size. Such a panel may be expected to produce 1 kWh every day, on average, after taking into account the weather and the latitude






The essential point remains that in order to replace our energy needs with solar would require incredibly enormous coverage of the earth surface at huge expense with dangerous transmission issues, storage issues and maintenance issues.  It is not feasible.


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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #13855677 - 01/26/11 06:13 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The essential point remains that in order to replace our energy needs with solar would require incredibly enormous coverage of the earth surface at huge expense with dangerous transmission issues, storage issues and maintenance issues.  It is not feasible.



You say this however I dont see how your conclusion follows.  It might not be feasible to you, but the issues you list are inherent in almost all electricity generating systems.  Transmission issues are always a problem, storage issues are always a problem (coal, oil, nuclear material, here we have storing electricity in batteries).  Maintenance issues are always an issue (coal especially). 

The main issue however is that not many people are suggesting we transfer entirely to solar, they are saying we have solar supplement our energy use.  There are a lot of areas in the US where massive solar farms make good damn sense.  No one is saying we use the Colorado River to power the US, but shit if it's there why not build the Hoover Dam to help power Vegas?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Chespirito]
    #13855795 - 01/26/11 06:32 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

No.  The storage and transmission issues are much greater with solar.  Firstly, you don't have to store fossil fuels much at all.  Out of the ground and into use easily.  Local power generation as opposed to what your map shows regarding power for Europe from the Sahara.  Don't forget, most of Europe is just about entirely useless for solar generation.  As is much of the US, almost all of Russia and huge swathes of China.  Then you have to store electricity in batteries every night, especially winter time when energy demand is at it's greatest and nights are longest.  That's probably about triple capacity necessary during other times.  Consider that you have to engineer the grid to supply the most energy during periods of shortest daylight.  Then it has to be stored, as electricity, overnight with reserve, and has to get there from far away over massive and leaky transmission lines. 

Then there is the manufacturing of the panels themselves, which is expensive plus installation and maintenance.  Dirty panels don't work well.


Not fucking practical.  Not now, not ever.  It will never be more than a way for a few conveniently located people to get cheap electricity to offset some of their needs.  That's it.  As a resident of NY I know this will never be worth a wet wank to me.  It won't do anything to replace fossil fuels or nuclear for me.


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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13858132 - 01/27/11 03:24 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> Then there is the manufacturing of the panels themselves, which is expensive plus installation and maintenance.  Dirty panels don't work well.

You have the costs to manufacturer the solar cells, including the energy required and the pollution involved.

The solar cells have to be encapsulated with optically clear plastics to protect them from the elements.  Plastics come from oil.

The solar cells have a limited lifetime, twenty years maximum, before they have to be replaced.

Some system must be used to store energy during the day to deliver at night or during poor lighting conditions.

Some places (above the arctic circle) are dark for half the year and even when the sun is out, solar flux is poor.

Solar cells produce DC which must be converted (at a loss) into AC for efficient distribution.

Maximum power point trackers must be used to maximize power production and solar cell efficiency.  Yet more costs, more production pollution, etc

Power diodes must be installed across every few strips of solar cells to isolate broken or defective cells, shadows, differences in cell efficiencies, etc.  Yet more costs, more production pollution, etc.

If batteries are used to store excess energy, they must be replaced every few years.  Yet more costs, more production pollution, etc.  Most batteries contain some fairly hazardous chemicals/elements... lead, lithium, strong acids or strong bases, etc.

Infrastructure to provide full power when solar fails for extended periods of time, such as unexpected blizzards, is still required.  The cost of this infrastructure must be accounted for in the cost of solar energy as a solution.

... the list goes on ...

Thermal solar power (such as using sunlight to heat water into steam to spin a turbine generator) is a lot more practical, but still has many limitations.

> Not fucking practical.  Not now, not ever.

I'd agree.


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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Seuss]
    #13859522 - 01/27/11 11:59 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

These drawbacks are all obvious because solar power is here now and used as an energy source and I agree that they prohibit solar power from being used for mass-scale power production.  However, fusion has been just around the bend for the past 50 years and looks like it'll probably be a lot more than 50 years into the future before anything meaningful comes from it.  I agree that it is important to continue fusion research, but not at the cost of all other energy source research because, as any investor knows, it's not smart to put all your eggs in one basket. 

Let's not forget that there's more than one way to skin a cat.  What about putting the solar panels in space and beaming the energy back to earth, thus eliminating atmospheric losses and enabling 24 hour/day collection.  Chock-full of logistical issues, but let's keep our options open.

I'd like to see our national labs keep up with research into all avenues.


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No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: pothead_bob]
    #13859657 - 01/27/11 12:28 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:
.  What about putting the solar panels in space and beaming the energy back to earth, thus eliminating atmospheric losses and enabling 24 hour/day collection.  Chock-full of logistical issues, but let's keep our options open.

.





:strokebeard:


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: lonestar2004]
    #13864268 - 01/28/11 01:59 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Education- Get the federal government the fuck out of it.  They are incompetent and it is stupid to apply the same methods to every single state.  They have different needs.




You don't think there should be some sort of standard ensuring a minimum level of quality education nation-wide?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: deCypher]
    #13864537 - 01/28/11 03:40 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> You don't think there should be some sort of standard ensuring a minimum level of quality education nation-wide?

Setting minimum standards for accreditation is the job of the federal government.  Funding educational institutions to meet those standards is most certainly not the job of the federal government.

Should the government set standards and ensure that our food is safe?  Yes.  Should the government be providing us money so that we can feed ourselves?  No.  Same concept, different field.


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