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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Chespirito]
    #13855446 - 01/26/11 05:32 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

That map has a small part of the Sahara supplying all of Europe.  Can you imagine the size of the transmission lines needed for that?:flowstone:


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InvisibleChespirito
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Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 3,259
Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13855466 - 01/26/11 05:35 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Well as they note, the ideal situation is to break that up heavily. The map is just for effect to show how much landmass one would need.  Of course there are questions inherent in it, such as what efficiency of solar cell are they contemplating, and what losses for batteries, transmission, etc... are they factoring in.  And what numbers did you quote?  Landmass and Wattage?  I feel like you don't understand how to calculate the number you're interested in...

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Invisibledespisedicon
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Registered: 06/16/06
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Flop Johnson]
    #13855472 - 01/26/11 05:36 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Had to work doing the SOTU, but I signed up for Twitter feed and read about it while it was going on.  I'm optimistic for the future and hope it will be a good year for the U.S.  Obvious hurdles and hopefully we both sides can agree to better our country in various ways.

Edited by despisedicon (01/26/11 06:01 PM)

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Invisibledespisedicon
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: jimbotron]
    #13855492 - 01/26/11 05:40 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said:
Something's amiss. In the Tea Party Response, Michelle Bachmann was staring at something other than the camera throughout the entire speech.

And it couldn't have been a teleprompter, because no Republican would ever use one.

What was it?




LOL, obsessed much?  Nothing to say about the speech except throwing mundane shit at the Tea Party over a teleprompter.

Edited by despisedicon (01/26/11 05:59 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Chespirito]
    #13855506 - 01/26/11 05:41 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Chespirito said:
Well as they note, the ideal situation is to break that up heavily. The map is just for effect to show how much landmass one would need.  Of course there are questions inherent in it, such as what efficiency of solar cell are they contemplating, and what losses for batteries, transmission, etc... are they factoring in.  And what numbers did you quote?  Landmass and Wattage?  I feel like you don't understand how to calculate the number you're interested in...



I was just trying to get to a general ballpark realization.  And any citation of yield per sq M is way too variable to generalize.  That's why I avoided it.  You can't get the same yield in Alberta as you can in Arizona. 

Still, where did that map come from?  It is vastly different from wikipedia's calculation.  Vastly.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: despisedicon]
    #13855514 - 01/26/11 05:43 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

despisedicon said:
Quote:

jimbotron said:
Something's amiss. In the Tea Party Response, Michelle Bachmann was staring at something other than the camera throughout the entire speech.

And it couldn't have been a teleprompter, because no Republican would ever use one.

What was it?




LOL, obsessed much?  Nothing to say about the speech except throwing mundane shit at the Tea Pary over a teleprompter.



That's about as substantial as he ever gets.


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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13855558 - 01/26/11 05:51 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I dont know where those numbers came from, just found it shown in all the top search results on google.  As for wikipedia, how is this number different? 

"The unpopulated area of the Sahara desert is over 9 million km², which if covered with solar panels would provide 630 terawatts total power[citation needed]. The Earth's current energy consumption rate is around 13.5 TW at any given moment (including oil, gas, coal, nuclear, and hydroelectric)[citation needed]."

So the Sahara desert would produce 46.7 times as much power as the world needs.  It is 9*10^6 km^2 , so (9*10^6)/46.7 = 193k km^2.  The number on the map is more, probably because not everywhere is as sunny as the sahara desert.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Chespirito]
    #13855638 - 01/26/11 06:06 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Ah I think you're right.  I think I misread it because they changed the notation of the units. 

From the same link we get this
Quote:

A typical "150 watt" solar panel is about a square meter in size. Such a panel may be expected to produce 1 kWh every day, on average, after taking into account the weather and the latitude






The essential point remains that in order to replace our energy needs with solar would require incredibly enormous coverage of the earth surface at huge expense with dangerous transmission issues, storage issues and maintenance issues.  It is not feasible.


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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #13855677 - 01/26/11 06:13 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The essential point remains that in order to replace our energy needs with solar would require incredibly enormous coverage of the earth surface at huge expense with dangerous transmission issues, storage issues and maintenance issues.  It is not feasible.



You say this however I dont see how your conclusion follows.  It might not be feasible to you, but the issues you list are inherent in almost all electricity generating systems.  Transmission issues are always a problem, storage issues are always a problem (coal, oil, nuclear material, here we have storing electricity in batteries).  Maintenance issues are always an issue (coal especially). 

The main issue however is that not many people are suggesting we transfer entirely to solar, they are saying we have solar supplement our energy use.  There are a lot of areas in the US where massive solar farms make good damn sense.  No one is saying we use the Colorado River to power the US, but shit if it's there why not build the Hoover Dam to help power Vegas?

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Chespirito]
    #13855795 - 01/26/11 06:32 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

No.  The storage and transmission issues are much greater with solar.  Firstly, you don't have to store fossil fuels much at all.  Out of the ground and into use easily.  Local power generation as opposed to what your map shows regarding power for Europe from the Sahara.  Don't forget, most of Europe is just about entirely useless for solar generation.  As is much of the US, almost all of Russia and huge swathes of China.  Then you have to store electricity in batteries every night, especially winter time when energy demand is at it's greatest and nights are longest.  That's probably about triple capacity necessary during other times.  Consider that you have to engineer the grid to supply the most energy during periods of shortest daylight.  Then it has to be stored, as electricity, overnight with reserve, and has to get there from far away over massive and leaky transmission lines. 

Then there is the manufacturing of the panels themselves, which is expensive plus installation and maintenance.  Dirty panels don't work well.


Not fucking practical.  Not now, not ever.  It will never be more than a way for a few conveniently located people to get cheap electricity to offset some of their needs.  That's it.  As a resident of NY I know this will never be worth a wet wank to me.  It won't do anything to replace fossil fuels or nuclear for me.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13858132 - 01/27/11 03:24 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> Then there is the manufacturing of the panels themselves, which is expensive plus installation and maintenance.  Dirty panels don't work well.

You have the costs to manufacturer the solar cells, including the energy required and the pollution involved.

The solar cells have to be encapsulated with optically clear plastics to protect them from the elements.  Plastics come from oil.

The solar cells have a limited lifetime, twenty years maximum, before they have to be replaced.

Some system must be used to store energy during the day to deliver at night or during poor lighting conditions.

Some places (above the arctic circle) are dark for half the year and even when the sun is out, solar flux is poor.

Solar cells produce DC which must be converted (at a loss) into AC for efficient distribution.

Maximum power point trackers must be used to maximize power production and solar cell efficiency.  Yet more costs, more production pollution, etc

Power diodes must be installed across every few strips of solar cells to isolate broken or defective cells, shadows, differences in cell efficiencies, etc.  Yet more costs, more production pollution, etc.

If batteries are used to store excess energy, they must be replaced every few years.  Yet more costs, more production pollution, etc.  Most batteries contain some fairly hazardous chemicals/elements... lead, lithium, strong acids or strong bases, etc.

Infrastructure to provide full power when solar fails for extended periods of time, such as unexpected blizzards, is still required.  The cost of this infrastructure must be accounted for in the cost of solar energy as a solution.

... the list goes on ...

Thermal solar power (such as using sunlight to heat water into steam to spin a turbine generator) is a lot more practical, but still has many limitations.

> Not fucking practical.  Not now, not ever.

I'd agree.


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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: Seuss]
    #13859522 - 01/27/11 11:59 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

These drawbacks are all obvious because solar power is here now and used as an energy source and I agree that they prohibit solar power from being used for mass-scale power production.  However, fusion has been just around the bend for the past 50 years and looks like it'll probably be a lot more than 50 years into the future before anything meaningful comes from it.  I agree that it is important to continue fusion research, but not at the cost of all other energy source research because, as any investor knows, it's not smart to put all your eggs in one basket. 

Let's not forget that there's more than one way to skin a cat.  What about putting the solar panels in space and beaming the energy back to earth, thus eliminating atmospheric losses and enabling 24 hour/day collection.  Chock-full of logistical issues, but let's keep our options open.

I'd like to see our national labs keep up with research into all avenues.


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No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.

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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: pothead_bob]
    #13859657 - 01/27/11 12:28 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:
.  What about putting the solar panels in space and beaming the energy back to earth, thus eliminating atmospheric losses and enabling 24 hour/day collection.  Chock-full of logistical issues, but let's keep our options open.

.





:strokebeard:


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: lonestar2004]
    #13864268 - 01/28/11 01:59 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Education- Get the federal government the fuck out of it.  They are incompetent and it is stupid to apply the same methods to every single state.  They have different needs.




You don't think there should be some sort of standard ensuring a minimum level of quality education nation-wide?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: The State of The Union Address [Re: deCypher]
    #13864537 - 01/28/11 03:40 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> You don't think there should be some sort of standard ensuring a minimum level of quality education nation-wide?

Setting minimum standards for accreditation is the job of the federal government.  Funding educational institutions to meet those standards is most certainly not the job of the federal government.

Should the government set standards and ensure that our food is safe?  Yes.  Should the government be providing us money so that we can feed ourselves?  No.  Same concept, different field.


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