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InvisibleSixTango
Mycota

Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 1,996
Loc: A little North of Paradis...
BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS
    #1383190 - 03/17/03 09:02 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

This may not involve "advanced" subject matter to some. The key factor is allowing a drain and/or bottom venting of a bulk substrate tray. If any Mod thinks not, please move it to where ever you think it belongs:
..........................................................................................................

My foaf has received a lot of em & pm's from folks trying their first BIG bulk substrate attempt & having problems.

By "big" & "bulk" substrate, he means aged / leached manure, manure/straw combo, or compost & large plastic trays (18 to 24 inches wide, 24 to 32 inches long, with depths ranging from 4 to 6 inches).

Assuming that you do everything in the most sterile manner possible;

TRAY PREPARATION:

Because the moisture level of a bulk substrate is hard for a novice to judge & most tend to get a bulk substrate to moist (via wet pasteurization).

You can rectify that problem by drilling an even pattern of approximate 1/2 or 3/8ths holes in the casing tray BOTTOM, then cover bottom of the tray with a sterilized spunbond polyester professional grade landscape fabric.

This fabric is the exact same thing filter disk material is made of (spunbond polyester), only thicker & slightly more porous. It can be PC'ed, without effect. It is also reusable, by simply spraying it off (well) with a hose, then PC'ing it again.

The best type is Easy Gardener Professional Grade Landscape cloth & most good garden supply stores (Home Depot, Lowes, et, al., stock it or a similar material.

An example is shown on the bottom of the following page:

CLICK HERE:

3 foot X 50 foot rolls of this material costs about $20

This is an IMPORTANT FACTOR, as it allows the substrate to drain, if it is initially to moist. Moreover, it allows a tiny bit of gas exchange, on the bottom of a tray. Which will give the substrate a better opportunity to fully colonize, ASAP.

Point 1.

Substrate MUST be properly PASTEURIZED, or STERILIZED.

HINT: placing a pre/moistened bulk substrate in a large baking pan, then placing that pan in a pre/heated oven, with a meat thermometer inserted into the substrate is an easy method of pasteurization. Insure the internal substrate temp reaches & maintains 175 to 185 F, for 90 minutes.

Point 2.

Substrate moisture content at spawning should be around 70% of it's capacity.
(meaning as moist as you can get it, without being able to squeeze moisture droplets out of it, with a fairly firm squeeze)

Point 3.

Spawn to substrate ratio should be AT LEAST 10%. 20 to 25% is preferable, as this will cause quicker colonization of the substrate.

Point 4.

Spawn should be mixed thoroughly into the substrate, top to bottom & side to side.

HINT: save back about 2% of the spawn & when finished mixing in the majority of spawn, add that extra amount to the surface of the substrate, as a topping. This will cause the surface to colonize slightly quicker than the substrate underneath, giving the substrate a quicker protective cover.

Point 5.

Substrate should not be compacted into the tray, when spawn is added.

Point 6.

Cover the tray with aluminum foil, not tightly. This will keep out light, help retain moisture, allow CO2 to build up & there will be a very small amount of gas exchange (a good thing), if the foil is not sealed tight.

Point 7.

Incubate @ 80 to 82 F.

Point 8.

Be patient. Let it do it's thing. Do not inspect it often. The more you open it, the more opportunity contam's have to get to it at this critical time.

Point 9.

Once the substrate appears fully colonized, give it another day or 3 to finish, as the surface will colonize faster than the substrate, underneath.

Point 10.

Once fully colonized, case the tray with 3/4 to 1 inch of pH tested & balanced casing mix. A casing mix pH should be 7 to 7.5.

6T (aka Mycota) :wink: :tongue:

 


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~whiskey river rafting, hot tubbing, dirty dancing & spending money on - wild women - having fun & just gonna waste the rest~


Edited by SixTango (03/17/03 10:02 AM)


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OfflineUnknown
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Re: BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS [Re: SixTango]
    #1383467 - 03/17/03 10:21 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

How do the holes in the bottom help more than the standard method? Seems like it would let out too much moisture.


--------------------
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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS [Re: SixTango]
    #1383495 - 03/17/03 10:29 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Good advice.
Question: I think I saw you mention somewhere that the landscape fabric allows some, but a limited amount of moisture evaporation. If it limits a significant amount of moisture evaporation, then it seems like it would make a good top filter in place of the foil. It would keep in most moisture, block light, and prevent flies and many airborne contaminates from entering. Perhaps even attached to the trays with velcro so as to make the trays re-usable and re-sealable. What do you think? I think I read you say that it limits about 70% of evaporation, which may be a little more porous than the perforated plastic (trash bags) that a lot of people use for covering trays, but is a similar stat to the plastic sheeting that the pros use when colonizing or fruiting oysters off of uncased straw.

point 5 clarification, substrate should not be compacted unless it is a mostly straw mix, or a very airy compost with large pieces of straw not decomposed. At that, many commercial cultivators compress all of their substrates to ensure an even surface for the casing to be applied to, ensuring even casing depth/colonization and therefore pinning. The expense is slightly longer colonization times and more risk of anearobic areas forming.

Point 7 clarification, make sure the advised incubation temps are measured at the substrate, not the incubation room or chamber. Especially when dealing with high spawn rates, substrates which have been SASed (supplemented at spawning), or mixes unusually high in nitrogen (10-20% hay or alfalfa in straw mixes, composts supplemented with sugars or oils) etc... thermogenisis can get out of hand. For most people it will be high spawn rates which lead to increased thermogenesis. Often heavily spawned trays will generate enough heat to incubate themselves, even in a 70 degree environment.

tip home depot mortar trays make great bulk trays. They have two sizes one 6 in deep by roughly 1' X 2' and the larger 8" deep 2' X 3'. They are much cheaper than their counterparts at Lowe's or other similar stores.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisibledeanofmean
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Registered: 12/07/02
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Re: BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS [Re: Anonymous]
    #1383507 - 03/17/03 10:33 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

actually it doesn't, if you keep rh around 86 it will be fine .
the main purpose is to let co2 drain, but mycelium doesn't like it's feet wet .
this works well for smaller casings too, tho you should use smaller holes . :smirk: 


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OfflineRaadt
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Re: BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS [Re: Anonymous]
    #1383514 - 03/17/03 10:36 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Most keep their casings in a humid environment anyways, you don't want the substrate to be too moist. This is a failsafe.


--------------------
Raadt

-- The information I provide is only information from readings, growing of gourmet mushrooms, and second hand stories--


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OfflineUnknown
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Re: BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS [Re: Raadt]
    #1383639 - 03/17/03 11:13 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Most keep their casings in a humid environment anyways, you don't want the substrate to be too moist.


I always think of "bulk" as being in it's own terrarium,like casing a rubbermaid bin.It provides just enough moisture on it's own as long as you din't make the manure too wet when you spawned.


--------------------
The above is just like,my opinion man


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InvisibleSixTango
Mycota

Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 1,996
Loc: A little North of Paradis...
Re: BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS [Re: mycofile]
    #1383947 - 03/17/03 12:35 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Yup them mortor mix trays work well. :wink:

My foaf uses the landscape fabric both top & bottom. :laugh:



Pic is of a dung straw mix, before I started making compost.

Anothr little trick is to mix in a little bit of pasturized vegatable oil in with the substrate, before spawning. I don't really know the technical points of why it helps, but it does (something about "floctuation" < SP or some such thing).

6T (aka Mycota) 


--------------------
~whiskey river rafting, hot tubbing, dirty dancing & spending money on - wild women - having fun & just gonna waste the rest~


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Offlinecanid
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Re: BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS [Re: Anonymous]
    #1385128 - 03/17/03 05:56 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


I always think of "bulk" as being in it's own terrarium





i don't know why. most bulk growers use one large humidified area to house several to many bulk trays (ie. stackable trays.)


--------------------



Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.


Edited by concretefeet (03/17/03 06:00 PM)


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OfflineUnknown
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Re: BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS [Re: canid]
    #1385416 - 03/17/03 07:01 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah,well I don't know what the hell is going on sometimes.


--------------------
The above is just like,my opinion man


Edited by strictlymycology (03/17/03 07:50 PM)


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Offlinecanid
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Re: BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS [Re: Anonymous]
    #1385618 - 03/17/03 07:55 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

ditto :smile:


--------------------



Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.


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Offlineathena
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Re: BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS [Re: canid]
    #1387248 - 03/18/03 09:09 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Hi,
interesting, but I saw somewhere where someone was using carboard boxes, and lining them with plastic sheeting, or plastic garbage bags.
can someone tell me, why wouldn't boxes work just as well?
I thank you for your help. Athena.


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS [Re: athena]
    #1387315 - 03/18/03 09:27 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Because they will get soggy and fall apart.

Joshua


--------------------
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Offlineathena
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Re: BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS [Re: Joshua]
    #1387366 - 03/18/03 09:45 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Hi,
thank you for your reply, but the boxes would get soggy and fall apart even lined with plastic? I thought that was the purpose of the plastic lining? Does it end up leaking? I mean your probably correct, but I was just wondering. thank you for your help, I do appreciate it. Athena.


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Offlinecomario2
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Re: BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS [Re: athena]
    #1387745 - 03/18/03 11:26 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

they get soggy WITHOUT the plastic lining. with the plastic they're great!


--------------------
comario


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Offlineanotherdirtywop
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Re: BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS [Re: comario2]
    #1390737 - 03/19/03 09:22 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I'm diggin that avatar 6T!
Is that fred?


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS [Re: SixTango]
    #1425184 - 04/03/03 03:14 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

For poor people.. is it ok to simply drill the holes and not use the landscaping material? I don't see any problems other than possible contamination.


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Invisiblepsyphon
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Re: BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS [Re: Shroomism]
    #1425232 - 04/03/03 03:36 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

My friend recently tried dung/straw for the first time.  Previously he'd been using only dung with good success.  This time the straw and whatever seemed to make it too wet which he realized by the spawn's reaction after spawing. So in an attempt to fix this he made sure the foil over the top was secure, flipped the whole damn things over and drilled 16 holes in the bottoms of each of the 3 gallon containers then flipped them back.

So to answer your question, they seem to be doing great since this operation :smile:


The only problem is that the flipping unleveled the surface of the substrate, severly on one of them.  So does anybody know, should he try to level this with a fork right before applying the casing layer?

Thanks

p.s. You also could try cutting flat pieces out of tyvek envelopes from the post office or wherever, and using those to cover the holes, I'm not sure how well they'd let water pass though. 


--------------------
"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes."
- Marcel Proust

I wish you all ceaselessly flowing moments of happiness.


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OfflineRoll's all day
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Re: BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS [Re: SixTango]
    #1427053 - 04/03/03 09:05 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Ok very, very good topic so far and I will thank you everyone for taking the time to write such an elaborate article, that in my opinion should be added to the Faq?s just to help clear up any questions that anyone may have regarding bulk Techniques. So THANK YOU ! Now for anyone who may know or have the time to help my friend out, here is a hypothetical question regarding 6T's piece. Say you knew someone that took a clear Rubbermaid container and drilled two 1 and 1/2 inch holes in the lid then proceeded to take two, two inch pieces of Mycron Magic filter discs and hot glue them to the lid of the Rubbermaid container. Thus providing Co2 exchange as well as to let some water evaporate if need be as well as making sure that no contams can enter as long as you don?t open it. The lid is a solid white but the bottom and the sides are clear, my friend likes this so he can see if there are any contams developing on the outer area until he births it to the terrarium, which by that time the outside/bottom has been taped with duct tape. So to the specifics - the substrate is straw, roughly about two gallons worth , the spawn is two, more than fully colonized, quart jars of rye berries, that were evenly distributed into the pasteurized straw on Tuesday. Everything is colonizing very well or so it seems, the rye is nice and fluffy, with yummy mycelium and already has started to colonize the straw . Here comes the doubt , it seems that there is a-lot of water condensation on the sides and the bottom of the Rubbermaid. So the question is do I tell him to perform surgery much like Psyphon did, or just see how things develop? Any help please!!!


--------------------
Slowly but surely, I realize every day.


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Invisibledeanofmean
mycophagous

Registered: 12/07/02
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Re: BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS [Re: Roll's all day]
    #1427379 - 04/04/03 12:54 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

> it seems that there is a-lot of water condensation on the sides and the bottom of the Rubbermaid.

this is normal . as long as there is not standing water in the bottom it's ok .
if it's like a lake in there, poke a hole and drain it .


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Invisiblepsyphon
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Re: BULK SUBSTRATE TRAYS [Re: Roll's all day]
    #1427517 - 04/04/03 02:06 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

When my friend could tell from the spawn's reaction that the substrate was too wet, what he observed was the mycelium having trouble recovering or fluffing up a bit but not "jumping off" onto the substrate, which is something that he observed in his first few bulk attempts, before he got the moisture level right.

So as long as it seems that the straw is being colonized, it should be alright.  Even in my friends recent run where he thought he might have made it too dry (first time he's done that) there was water condensation on the sides.  One reason this might happen is that the colonizing mycelium and the beneficial organisms left over after pasteurizing generate heat, so the substrate could be warmer than the air outside the tray making the walls of the tray cooler and thus the water condenses on them.

Two additional points: Like mycofile said, you might want to compress your substate since its straw.  The filter discs in the lids might help with air exchange, but aren't too likely to help evacuate excess CO2, its heavier than air so filtered holes are usually made on the sides just above substrate level so the CO2 will sort of pour itself out or be pushed out by whatever air exchange device is being used.

One more thing, (yeah I know I said two but...) you're going to want to cover up the clear sides of the container either now or near complete colonization at the latest because light will initiate pinning and you'll end up with them growing from the sides or bottom of the substrate, something you definately don't want.  Hmm...I just saw the thing about the duct tape so I guess you know about that but just but sure that its colonizing in the dark and you might want to put that tape on now.

Anyway, it sounds like you're doing your research so Good Luck :smile: I think it'll go well. 


--------------------
"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes."
- Marcel Proust

I wish you all ceaselessly flowing moments of happiness.


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