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OfflineOutThisLife
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To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers.
    #13813825 - 01/19/11 12:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Please stop and trust yourself. :smile:

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: OutThisLife] * 1
    #13813843 - 01/19/11 12:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Why would you post this here?  Doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers are deterred from visiting this subforum.

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OfflineSnarkyPuffs
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: OutThisLife]
    #13813896 - 01/19/11 12:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I do trust myself... it's god and those other creatures that I distrust.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: SnarkyPuffs]
    #13813925 - 01/19/11 12:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Personally, I dont trust myself.  Im not arrogant enough to think that I am infallible or that my personal experience is necessarily reflective of any underlying reality.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: DieCommie]
    #13813940 - 01/19/11 12:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Why would you post this here?  Doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers are deterred from visiting this subforum.




Not true. The rules are about how a person, be they doubter, skeptic, logical thinker, or the more than likely all of the above, engages another.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineOutThisLife
Male

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 1,296
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: DieCommie]
    #13814019 - 01/19/11 12:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Personally, I dont trust myself.  Im not arrogant enough to think that I am infallible or that my personal experience is necessarily reflective of any underlying reality.




Tough wording there, friend. It is not that you should believe that you are infallible, but it is not arrogant to believe that direct experience and self-responsibility of exploration is more "truth" than any other words.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: OutThisLife]
    #13814041 - 01/19/11 12:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I trust myself to be fallible.  :smirk:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineOutThisLife
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: deCypher]
    #13814042 - 01/19/11 12:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
I trust myself to be fallible.  :smirk:




:thumbup:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: OutThisLife]
    #13814095 - 01/19/11 01:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OutThisLife said:
Please stop and trust yourself. :smile:





This supposes you are the all knowing creator of the Universe.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineOutThisLife
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: Icelander]
    #13814130 - 01/19/11 01:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

OutThisLife said:
Please stop and trust yourself. :smile:





This supposes you are the all knowing creator of the Universe.




I don't see how you came to that outstanding conclusion :smile:

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: OutThisLife]
    #13814137 - 01/19/11 01:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe you should give that logical thinking you decry a try?  Dont be close minded to logic, it is useful.

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OfflineOutThisLife
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: DieCommie]
    #13814182 - 01/19/11 01:26 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Maybe you should give that logical thinking you decry a try?  Dont be close minded to logic, it is useful.




Er, this is in the spirituality forum. Logical thinking applies to daily life and other low-end thoughts. But for higher, more abstract, ideas and thoughts then logic must be dissolved for it creates a barrier between the possible & impossible.

We thought many things were impossible, yet they are now possible all because of pushing the boundaries of so-called logic. Use logic for the grocery store, bills, investments but nothing deeper than those.

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: OutThisLife]
    #13814225 - 01/19/11 01:33 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It's a balancing act between the two - right brain (abstract/intuition) and left brain (logic). You have to know when to play with imagination and when to use the rational mind. Both are useful and necessary, but most people are not in balance and feel they are playing on a team for one side. :shrug:

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OfflineOutThisLife
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #13814253 - 01/19/11 01:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
It's a balancing act between the two - right brain (abstract/intuition) and left brain (logic). You have to know when to play with imagination and when to use the rational mind. Both are useful and necessary, but most people are not in balance and feel they are playing on a team for one side. :shrug:




Right.

Both have their places, but neither one can complete life by itself. But when it comes to spirituality, it is sad to see that many people doubt their own experiences, their own views and then get shut down by other doubters. It is sad because one should do the research themselves, find the truth themselves and apply it themselves.

A community can be very harmful when it comes to discovering oneself. I just want to advocate self-trust and belief :smile:

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: OutThisLife]
    #13814657 - 01/19/11 02:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I slept with faith and found a corpse in my arms on awakening; I drank and danced all night with doubt and found her a virgin in the morning.
-Aleister Crowley


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: OutThisLife] * 1
    #13815358 - 01/19/11 04:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------

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Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

Registered: 01/13/05
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: Silversoul]
    #13816599 - 01/19/11 07:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I find it nearly impossible to convince non believes to such "higher realities". The bst way i find is to communicate to them scientifically, even so the little box they live in does not want to pop.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: OutThisLife]
    #13816814 - 01/19/11 08:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OutThisLife said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

OutThisLife said:
Please stop and trust yourself. :smile:





This supposes you are the all knowing creator of the Universe.




I don't see how you came to that outstanding conclusion :smile:




Your request supposes you know something they don't.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: p4kSouL] * 1
    #13816822 - 01/19/11 08:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

p4kSouL said:
I find it nearly impossible to convince non believes to such "higher realities". The bst way i find is to communicate to them scientifically, even so the little box they live in does not want to pop.




Considering the evidence for their positions and the lack for yours I don't know how you come to this conclusion. Have you ever been willing to entertain the idea you could be the one in error?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: Icelander]
    #13816918 - 01/19/11 08:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Yes i could entertain that and i often do, but then i realize how dull and boring my life was, and how depressed i was. I never want to go back.

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: Icelander]
    #13817882 - 01/19/11 11:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

OutThisLife said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

OutThisLife said:
Please stop and trust yourself. :smile:





This supposes you are the all knowing creator of the Universe.




I don't see how you came to that outstanding conclusion :smile:




Your request supposes you know something they don't.




why is that so hard to accept?


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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OfflineOutThisLife
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: p4kSouL]
    #13819455 - 01/20/11 09:47 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Yes i could entertain that and i often do, but then i realize how dull and boring my life was, and how depressed i was. I never want to go back.




If one is to be right and yet unfulfilled then it is obviously not right. The headstrong pseudo-scientists are often depressed or apathetic.

I believe the measurement problem clearly declines any need for scientific explanation anyway. :smile:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: p4kSouL]
    #13819688 - 01/20/11 10:50 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Yes i could entertain that and i often do, but then i realize how dull and boring my life was, and how depressed i was. I never want to go back.



Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Yes i could entertain that and i often do, but then i realize how dull and boring my life was, and how depressed i was. I never want to go back.





So really then it has nothing to do with "truth" in your case but rather that which makes you feel better, right or not. Well I agree that's great but many scientists love life and their work as much as you love your beliefs. I know this from personal experience.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinecircastes
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: Icelander]
    #13820177 - 01/20/11 12:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

But doesn't the truth just make you feel better? I mean, that's why you're after it... you think it'll make things better to know it...

And if you can be happy and the truth is sad, then what weight does the truth hold?


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: circastes]
    #13820344 - 01/20/11 01:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
But doesn't the truth just make you feel better?


If that were true then humans wouldn't lie to themselves to the extent that they do.


Quote:

circastes said:
I mean, that's why you're after it... you think it'll make things better to know it...


I don't think that's the main reason why humans have a desire to discover the truth about things; curiosity killed the cat. :superkitty:


Quote:

circastes said:
And if you can be happy and the truth is sad, then what weight does the truth hold?


What do you mean by that? Are you asking "Then how much does truth matter?"? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineOutThisLife
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: Poid]
    #13820720 - 01/20/11 02:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It's quite obvious that truth is relative, please see the measurement problem :smile:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: circastes]
    #13820742 - 01/20/11 02:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
But doesn't the truth just make you feel better? I mean, that's why you're after it... you think it'll make things better to know it...

And if you can be happy and the truth is sad, then what weight does the truth hold?





I feel better about myself for acknowledging the truth as I see it even if it's exactly what I would not prefer.

The truth does not need to hold weight in our minds, you are correct but few of us can take that truth and run with it. The truth just is. I have a certain logic to how I view things. If I try to go against that logic it rarely works as far as I know.

Logic is our greatest tool for finding happiness imo. Honestly applied it will give a good indication of the best direction to travel toward well being.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: Icelander]
    #13822120 - 01/20/11 06:24 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Yes i could entertain that and i often do, but then i realize how dull and boring my life was, and how depressed i was. I never want to go back.



Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Yes i could entertain that and i often do, but then i realize how dull and boring my life was, and how depressed i was. I never want to go back.





So really then it has nothing to do with "truth" in your case but rather that which makes you feel better, right or not. Well I agree that's great but many scientists love life and their work as much as you love your beliefs. I know this from personal experience.




Well for one i am not anti scientist, i think science is a GOOD and Wonderful thing. To me all humans have beliefs, this is what makes us Human. If we didnt have beliefs we would be operating under some other kind of realm. The way i see it some people put themselves in a Super ficial box, which is ok as long as they dont put other people down. What makes me a little pissed is when people say spiritualallity is BS but they are basing that on stupid conclusions. I can tell if someone is super happy and experiencing bliss, but people seem to ignor intuition or whatever because they have this idea who they are. ALmost like if spirituality existed that would bring them out of their nice little box home.


Also i think scientist are happy, because i believe having high levels of Seritonin is a level of Spiritual progress :-)

Edited by p4kSouL (01/20/11 06:32 PM)

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: p4kSouL] * 2
    #13822186 - 01/20/11 06:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I reject spirituality because I see most of it as being based off of fear, deception and ignorance.  I dont discount the ineffable qualities of the human experience at all.  The experience cannot be explained by logic or science, and I think most people know that.  However, spirituality generally has alot of crap baggage accompanying it - baggage I dont want anything to do with.

Formula: 0

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Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: DieCommie]
    #13822214 - 01/20/11 06:41 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah i know about all the skeptics and all the ungrounded behavior makes spirituallity look bad. But if you can take drugs like DMT, psylocibin, and LSD, you can recreate those same effects on the brain without the drugs. Its possible, and doesnt have to be religious or dogmatic. But people say NO, cause they lack trust IMO

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: p4kSouL]
    #13822281 - 01/20/11 06:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Yes i could entertain that and i often do, but then i realize how dull and boring my life was, and how depressed i was. I never want to go back.



Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Yes i could entertain that and i often do, but then i realize how dull and boring my life was, and how depressed i was. I never want to go back.





So really then it has nothing to do with "truth" in your case but rather that which makes you feel better, right or not. Well I agree that's great but many scientists love life and their work as much as you love your beliefs. I know this from personal experience.




Well for one i am not anti scientist, i think science is a GOOD and Wonderful thing. To me all humans have beliefs, this is what makes us Human. If we didnt have beliefs we would be operating under some other kind of realm. The way i see it some people put themselves in a Super ficial box, which is ok as long as they dont put other people down. What makes me a little pissed is when people say spiritualallity is BS but they are basing that on stupid conclusions. I can tell if someone is super happy and experiencing bliss, but people seem to ignor intuition or whatever because they have this idea who they are. ALmost like if spirituality existed that would bring them out of their nice little box home.


Also i think scientist are happy, because i believe having high levels of Seritonin is a level of Spiritual progress :-)





So you're pissed and the solution is to fire back at the bad guys. That's war. The same war we all engage in with or without weapons.  Lets face it we all have different beliefs about reality and we feel a little insecure if someone else tells us that our belief is faulty. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (01/20/11 07:49 PM)

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Offlineargg
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: DieCommie] * 1
    #13822301 - 01/20/11 06:56 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I reject spirituality because I see most of it as being based off of fear, deception and ignorance.  I dont discount the ineffable qualities of the human experience at all.  The experience cannot be explained by logic or science, and I think most people know that.  However, spirituality generally has alot of crap baggage accompanying it - baggage I dont want anything to do with.

Formula: 0





pretty solid thinking. There may or may not be something there but i need more proof then what has been provided so far as most of it is proven untrue when it can be proven. If you keep getting bad info from a website like it tells you the earth is flat or the sun rotates around the earth would you keep going back and believing new info or believe the rest of the site just because you can't prove part of it one way or the other?

I think I have an open mind but like to disregard stuff that makes no logical sense or makes no difference.


--------------------

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Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

Registered: 01/13/05
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: Icelander]
    #13822834 - 01/20/11 08:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Yes i could entertain that and i often do, but then i realize how dull and boring my life was, and how depressed i was. I never want to go back.



Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Yes i could entertain that and i often do, but then i realize how dull and boring my life was, and how depressed i was. I never want to go back.





So really then it has nothing to do with "truth" in your case but rather that which makes you feel better, right or not. Well I agree that's great but many scientists love life and their work as much as you love your beliefs. I know this from personal experience.




Well for one i am not anti scientist, i think science is a GOOD and Wonderful thing. To me all humans have beliefs, this is what makes us Human. If we didnt have beliefs we would be operating under some other kind of realm. The way i see it some people put themselves in a Super ficial box, which is ok as long as they dont put other people down. What makes me a little pissed is when people say spiritualallity is BS but they are basing that on stupid conclusions. I can tell if someone is super happy and experiencing bliss, but people seem to ignor intuition or whatever because they have this idea who they are. ALmost like if spirituality existed that would bring them out of their nice little box home.


Also i think scientist are happy, because i believe having high levels of Seritonin is a level of Spiritual progress :-)





So you're pissed and the solution is to fire back at the bad guys. That's war. The same war we all engage in with or without weapons.  Lets face it we all have different beliefs about reality and we feel a little insecure if someone else tells us that our belief is faulty. :shrug:


Im pissed because im just tiered of the BS that has suppressed me my life. Im not being violent they can do what they want i dont give a shit. Im not getting in other peoples buisness that is not my intent, but when people start judging me and other people for stupid shit then i get pissed.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: p4kSouL]
    #13822902 - 01/20/11 08:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

How exactly has someone suppressed your life with words?  Aren't you in charge of what and how you take in other peoples beliefs and opinions?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

Registered: 01/13/05
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: Icelander]
    #13823162 - 01/20/11 09:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

They believe what they want, if they are happy great.

I am in charge but the other people are connected to me as well so for them to be closing them selfs off from things hurts, but i am learning to just leave them be because they dont want to change and never will its not up to me. Because i personally have experienced lots of possitive benifits from spiritual development, and people to say its bullshit, i mean its like saying my progress is bullshit im like no dude no its not BS, ive made improvements. So when someone says spirituallity is BS, i will argue and i will bring science to the picture, and i will argue that if phycedelic drugs can trigger blissful states so can the right meditation techniques, triggers the same exact nerons fireing. And im sure if you did a brain sccan of a advanced shaman or meditator, meditors that have achieved drug states Samadhi, and compared to a actual drug user the brain would light up the same way on the charts.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: p4kSouL]
    #13823428 - 01/20/11 10:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

And im sure if you did a brain sccan of a advanced shaman or meditator, meditors that have achieved drug states Samadhi, and compared to a actual drug user the brain would light up the same way on the charts.

Then you should be able to link us to some of this scientific evidence.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblep4kSouL
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: Icelander]
    #13823588 - 01/20/11 10:33 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Im not sure if there has been a study to this type of research and if there has i would like to know about it.That is why i said Im sure, because i dont need scientific evidence to discover truths about the universe, that is BS.

Edited by p4kSouL (01/20/11 11:08 PM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: p4kSouL]
    #13823817 - 01/20/11 11:13 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

p4kSouL said:
i dont need scientific evidence to discover truths about the universe, that is BS.




What sort of truths can you discover about the universe without relying on the scientific method or evidence thereby gained?


--------------------
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Invisiblep4kSouL
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: deCypher]
    #13823832 - 01/20/11 11:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

p4kSouL said:
i dont need scientific evidence to discover truths about the universe, that is BS.




What sort of truths can you discover about the universe without relying on the scientific method or evidence thereby gained?



Well, science is diffidently part of it, but for example from my understanding Einstein pulled his theory of relativity out of his imagination.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: p4kSouL]
    #13823872 - 01/20/11 11:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

That might be true but the theory of relativity was only demonstrated to be worthwhile once it was empirically tested via the scientific method.  Without empirical tests a theory is worthless.


--------------------
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Invisiblep4kSouL
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: deCypher]
    #13823905 - 01/20/11 11:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah if you want proof for a theory you need test. That is why i propose scientist to test a persons brain on a psychedelic drug compared to a real enlightened Rinpoche, or Swami in india. I want to see the results.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: p4kSouL]
    #13823914 - 01/20/11 11:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Yeah if you want proof for a theory you need test.




Just to be technical there is no such thing as "proof" in science; there is only disproof.  I agree that comparing the fMRI scans of a person's brain on a psychedelic drug to an "enlightened" guru would be quite interesting, though.


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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: DieCommie] * 1
    #13823945 - 01/20/11 11:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I reject spirituality because I see most of it as being based off of fear, deception and ignorance.  I dont discount the ineffable qualities of the human experience at all.  The experience cannot be explained by logic or science, and I think most people know that.  However, spirituality generally has alot of crap baggage accompanying it - baggage I dont want anything to do with.

Formula: 0




translation: my ego doesn't like spirituality.


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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: g00ru]
    #13824595 - 01/21/11 04:29 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I think the real problem is skeptics and believers wanting to convert one another... we all have to build our lives around some purpose and meaning, even if we chose to have no purpose as our purpose. if we all believed or non-believed the exact same things, the world would probably turn very boring, but most important, our chances of survival would dramatically decrease. so there's a place for conflict and debate. expressing our opinions will make us look into ourselves and understand better who we are. imposing our worldview on others, not accepting they're entitled to their own opinion, that's when things turn wrong and people get hurt.

I think one of the grossest mistakes in my life was to tell people around me about the potential of psychedelics. You've found a door that opens to a marvelous kingdom... great, go there and enjoy. Don't believe others will have similar expectations...
I can even tell you that at some point spiritual debate went way over the border and turned into some kind of magical duel when a friend of mine (with all the best intentions) thought it wise to ask God to come and knock on my door... never did I face such extreme challenge. For one week I had to live between life and death.

In the end he just said he was surprised that having experienced God's power I still wouldn't convert...


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: p4kSouL]
    #13824810 - 01/21/11 07:31 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Yeah if you want proof for a theory you need test. That is why i propose scientist to test a persons brain on a psychedelic drug compared to a real enlightened Rinpoche, or Swami in india. I want to see the results.





Well until you see the results predictions are relatively worthless.

Einstein would not have come up with squat most likely had he not trained himself in math etc.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblep4kSouL
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: Icelander]
    #13825328 - 01/21/11 10:50 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Well einstein sucked at math and still made breakthroughs.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: p4kSouL] * 1
    #13825373 - 01/21/11 11:02 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Well einstein sucked at math and still made breakthroughs.




This is the kind of ignorance that compels me reject spirituality and proponents of spirituality.  Why would you even think this?  Do you really just make up whatever you want and proclaim it to be true?  Is that what spirituality is to you?  Looks like it to me.  I dont believe you have ever read any of Einstein's papers or studied his theories at all.  And yet, you still proclaim what you feel is right regardless of what the literature shows.  This is arrogant, ignorant hubris.

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Invisiblep4kSouL
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: DieCommie]
    #13825429 - 01/21/11 11:16 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

No really he did suck at math. Hes struggled with it for year, research it.


I think Einstein had a high level of Chi in his head area, he was able to tap into subconcious shit a lot of people cant tap into.


I dont need to read his research papers, i dont care.



Its ignorant to judge people over stupid shit.

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Invisiblep4kSouL
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: p4kSouL]
    #13825445 - 01/21/11 11:20 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

And yes i do make up what i want to believe thats part of create your own reality or some external figure will be gladly to create it for you

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: p4kSouL]
    #13825492 - 01/21/11 11:31 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

p4kSouL said:
No really he did suck at math. Hes struggled with it for year, research it.


I think Einstein had a high level of Chi in his head area, he was able to tap into subconcious shit a lot of people cant tap into.


I dont need to read his research papers, i dont care.



Its ignorant to judge people over stupid shit.





Of course you don't want to read his research papers. You might have to revise your views.  His shitty math skills would make most peoples appear to be non existent. He may have struggled with them but he was struggling with math that was amazingly difficult.  And obviously he conquered it to a great degree.

No one is judging you but instead judging what you say.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: Icelander]
    #13825499 - 01/21/11 11:33 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

No really he did suck at math. Hes struggled with it for year, research it.




I have.  You are wrong.  He excelled at math, and always did.

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: DieCommie]
    #13825667 - 01/21/11 12:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Eintstein was a very spiritually advanced being, you're lying to yourself if you believe otherwise.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, as they say.


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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: g00ru]
    #13825684 - 01/21/11 12:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
Eintstein was a very spiritually advanced being...


What about Jim Morrison? :jimmorrison:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: g00ru]
    #13825712 - 01/21/11 12:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
Eintstein was a very spiritually advanced being, you're lying to yourself if you believe otherwise.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, as they say.





what?

Did you ever met him?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: Poid] * 1
    #13825729 - 01/21/11 12:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

guruu said:
Eintstein was a very spiritually advanced being...


What about Jim Morrison? :jimmorrison:





"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn"  James Douglas Morrison


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: g00ru] * 3
    #13825731 - 01/21/11 12:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
Eintstein was a very spiritually advanced being, you're lying to yourself if you believe otherwise.





You are talking to me?  When did I say otherwise?  Looks like a typical tactic, criticizing me for something I never said.  And yet you have the gall to call me the liar.  And the mystics around here wonder why they get no respect...

(btw, I do not believe einstein's spritulaity was anything like the bull that gets spewed around here.)

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: DieCommie] * 1
    #13825766 - 01/21/11 12:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

He referred to us as mystics. :awesome:

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: DieCommie] * 2
    #13825776 - 01/21/11 12:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I've read several of his books. He was pretty human and mostly a hard nosed realist and scientist.  He has some psychological perspectives that I think were very advanced personally and I guess you could call that spiritual but I don't think he was overly advanced in that area. Not from what I've read anyway and I never met the man. I think he was mostly just a decent human for the most part.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: Icelander]
    #13825799 - 01/21/11 12:26 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Off topic but, Ever read anything about Ghandi? I think he was one of the most decent human beings to walk this Earth. Such discipline and dedication to peace and his truths.

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #13825850 - 01/21/11 12:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah that seems to be the case. I think his own children may have suffered some neglect however.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: DieCommie]
    #13825957 - 01/21/11 12:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

guruu said:
Eintstein was a very spiritually advanced being, you're lying to yourself if you believe otherwise.





You are talking to me?  When did I say otherwise?  Looks like a typical tactic, criticizing me for something I never said.  And yet you have the gall to call me the liar.  And the mystics around here wonder why they get no respect...

(btw, I do not believe einstein's spritulaity was anything like the bull that gets spewed around here.)




Einstein's spirituality was quite a bit like the bull that gets spewed around here.  The idea that space and time are relative is a completely world altering idea, as I'm sure you know.  But do you really take that truth to heart? There is no intrinsic nature in anything.  Including external objects, and including the mind.  You are all of it.  Plenty of people on this forum understand that, it's really the core of spirituality.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #13826896 - 01/21/11 03:43 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Off topic but, Ever read anything about Ghandi? I think he was one of the most decent human beings to walk this Earth. Such discipline and dedication to peace and his truths.




Isn't it spelled Gandhi?  There's also some speculation that he may have been a racist:

Quote:

Some of Gandhi's early South African articles are controversial. On 7 March 1908, Gandhi wrote in the Indian Opinion of his time in a South African prison: "Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilised—the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty and live almost like animals."[15] Writing on the subject of immigration in 1903, Gandhi commented: "We believe as much in the purity of race as we think they do... We believe also that the white race in South Africa should be the predominating race."[16] During his time in South Africa, Gandhi protested repeatedly about the social classification of blacks with Indians, whom he described as "undoubtedly infinitely superior to the Kaffirs".[17] Remarks such as these have led some to accuse Gandhi of racism.[18]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi#Racism_and_controversy


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: deCypher]
    #13826969 - 01/21/11 03:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not familiar of his early stuff. He wrote that when he was in his 30s. Perhaps he was at some time, but I won't use that to discredit all the good he brought to the world. :shrug:

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: DieCommie] * 2
    #13827090 - 01/21/11 04:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

guruu said:
Eintstein was a very spiritually advanced being, you're lying to yourself if you believe otherwise.





You are talking to me?  When did I say otherwise?  Looks like a typical tactic, criticizing me for something I never said.  And yet you have the gall to call me the liar.  And the mystics around here wonder why they get no respect...

(btw, I do not believe einstein's spritulaity was anything like the bull that gets spewed around here.)




See dude, this is the kind of thing that isn't tolerated in the forum. It isn't because you doubt things, its because you've moved far beyond the doubt of a single topic point and are now on to discrediting the entire forum as well as insulting its members. Cut it out. This is the only warning I am giving you.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: Kickle] * 3
    #13827127 - 01/21/11 04:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I dont accept the warning.  He called me a liar and made a false accusation.  There is nothing wrong with my reply at all, besides not agreeing with the status quo.

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: DieCommie]
    #13827172 - 01/21/11 04:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Remember this isn't the philosophy forum.

I don't want you getting banned from here like I usually do.:lol:

I like your input.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: DieCommie] * 1
    #13827180 - 01/21/11 04:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

so you can't think of any way to handle a one-on-one situation without insulting the entire forum? Id suggest working on it, because if I see that unwarrented belittling again you will be taking a vacation from here.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisiblep4kSouL
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: DieCommie]
    #13827381 - 01/21/11 05:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

No really he did suck at math. Hes struggled with it for year, research it.




I have.  You are wrong.  He excelled at math, and always did.



Ok im sorry i might be wrong about that, i did not research the guy to much but and i recall a documentary saying that he struggled with math in certain areas and he had to teach himself.


But just because i make a mistake & make assumptions doesnt mean all mystical forum is bullshit.
I like to judge things by not what society gives me in the books, but how things actually feel right.
Its much more real to me to not live a life trying to prove things wrong and right all the time.

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: Icelander]
    #13827391 - 01/21/11 05:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

p4kSouL said:
No really he did suck at math. Hes struggled with it for year, research it.


I think Einstein had a high level of Chi in his head area, he was able to tap into subconcious shit a lot of people cant tap into.


I dont need to read his research papers, i dont care.



Its ignorant to judge people over stupid shit.





Of course you don't want to read his research papers. You might have to revise your views.  His shitty math skills would make most peoples appear to be non existent. He may have struggled with them but he was struggling with math that was amazingly difficult.  And obviously he conquered it to a great degree.

No one is judging you but instead judging what you say.



Yeah thats why its important to think about things before i throw them up everywhere.

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: deCypher]
    #13827555 - 01/21/11 06:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Off topic but, Ever read anything about Ghandi? I think he was one of the most decent human beings to walk this Earth. Such discipline and dedication to peace and his truths.




Isn't it spelled Gandhi?  There's also some speculation that he may have been a racist:

Quote:

Some of Gandhi's early South African articles are controversial. On 7 March 1908, Gandhi wrote in the Indian Opinion of his time in a South African prison: "Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilised—the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty and live almost like animals."[15] Writing on the subject of immigration in 1903, Gandhi commented: "We believe as much in the purity of race as we think they do... We believe also that the white race in South Africa should be the predominating race."[16] During his time in South Africa, Gandhi protested repeatedly about the social classification of blacks with Indians, whom he described as "undoubtedly infinitely superior to the Kaffirs".[17] Remarks such as these have led some to accuse Gandhi of racism.[18]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi#Racism_and_controversy



My understanding is that his views on race changed over time, just like Malcolm X.  This was well before he became an activist for Indian independence.  My real gripe with his later views is just how dogmatic his pacifism was.  He believed that the Jews in Nazi Germany should practice the same kind of nonviolent civil disobedience that he was practicing, taking no account of how the British saw themselves vs. how the Nazis saw themselves.


--------------------

Edited by Silversoul (01/22/11 01:02 AM)

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: Silversoul]
    #13827904 - 01/21/11 07:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Good example of how we are all human with our pluses and minuses.  Soom see him as a saint because they are wowed by the pluses and so won't see the minuses. 

I now see all men from the so called great to the small as cut from the same cloth.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: DieCommie]
    #13829102 - 01/21/11 11:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I dont accept the warning.  He called me a liar and made a false accusation.  There is nothing wrong with my reply at all, besides not agreeing with the status quo.




I was just saying you're doing it about that, not that you are actually a "liar"


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drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Offlinek00laid
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: OutThisLife]
    #13829640 - 01/22/11 01:00 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OutThisLife said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Maybe you should give that logical thinking you decry a try?  Dont be close minded to logic, it is useful.




Er, this is in the spirituality forum. Logical thinking applies to daily life and other low-end thoughts.




daily life is low end? wow bro. idk about you but i like my daily life.
it puts food on my table.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: Kickle]
    #13830539 - 01/22/11 08:46 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Why would you post this here?  Doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers are deterred from visiting this subforum.




Not true. The rules are about how a person, be they doubter, skeptic, logical thinker, or the more than likely all of the above, engages another.





Speaking from my personal opinion only, and not as a moderator (held these views for a while now):

I agree that you are correct in your statement of the 'rules' (what is printed in the rules post) but disagree that they have much to do with what gets you banned or not from this forum.

I still have no understanding of what is or isn't allowed in this forum to any degree of confidence, and I would think it would be great if what you've said were true, but it just doesn't comport with my recollection and observations of what actually goes down.  Even asking what the rules are is apparently against the rules, and in the past, the 'clarifying' posts of moderators on just what is and is not allowed often are self-contradictory and seem entirely ad-hoc.  For example, it was stated that the rules allow you to answer questions asked without running afoul of the rules, however; there are a number of examples of incidents casting doubt on this- where what seemed like posters acting in good faith were disciplined for their replies due to the opinions expressed.

I liked when you were made a moderator, Kickle, as I didn't think you were big on viewpoint discrimination or things like that, so maybe its changing, but citing the rules to point out what is and isn't allowed seems pretty suspect in this forum.  I should note that this opinion of mine is formed mostly from things occurring a while ago, so should not be taken as a criticism of the currently-active staff or the way the forum is presently run (which I don't really know much about), but I've observed some of this activity continuing and presume things remain much the same.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: johnm214]
    #13830576 - 01/22/11 09:00 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I still have no idea what the rules actually are in this forum, and I would think it would be great if what you've said were true, but it just doesn't comport with my recollection and observations of what actually goes down.  Even asking what the rules are is apparently against the rules, and the 'clarifying' posts of moderators on just what is and is not allowed often are self-contradictory and seem entirely ad-hoc.

I can't help myself from making an observation here and I hope it doesn't get me banned but the above is pretty much how "spirituality" works in general around here.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: Icelander]
    #13830705 - 01/22/11 09:42 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The big problem I see is the viewpoint discrimination.  I think it should be antithetical to a spirituality forum to favor particular viewpoints, but its hard to see how this isn't the general way in which the forum has operated in the past few years (not as familiar with it currently).

If particular viewpoints are favored or particular views are simply disallowed, it would be better to have that stated in the rules, in my opinion.  Something like "You may disagree or critically discuss Christians and Christianity.  You may not disagree with or critically discuss new age beliefs and new agers' views."

I personally think a forum, especially one on a subject as diverse and amorphous as spirituality, should be free from viewpoint discrimination, but far better to institutionalize it and make it easy to comply with than to let it continue to be absent from the rules yet apparently enforced.

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: johnm214] * 1
    #13830785 - 01/22/11 10:09 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It's pretty simple, be a jerk and you will get warned/banned. There's no grand formula to it. You don't walk into downtown Harlem and start dropping the N-Bomb, similarly you shouldn't go into a mysticism forum and say "And the mystics around here wonder why they get no respect..." It's called trolling, trying to start trouble.

We have pretty good discussions around here with all points of view, and the people who post here regularly will attest to that. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. If you treat others with respect, as opposed to calling out the entire forum, you won't ever have a single problem with the moderators here. :shrug: A big part of showing respect is being open minded to others beliefs - that is what this forum is all about.

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: To doubters, skeptics and logical thinkers. [Re: OutThisLife]
    #13830806 - 01/22/11 10:09 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
Thread has went in a different direction.

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