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Offlinev3nn3m
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Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? * 1
    #13808466 - 01/18/11 02:53 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

is there any significant differences between growing with eather? i researched and most people say to use a cource verm but there are a lot the suggest a fine verm...

which would be better?


thanks

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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: v3nn3m]
    #13808494 - 01/18/11 02:57 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

RR says to use fine for mycological use.

I use fine verm.


If you are doing pftek I suggest fine verm. It absorbs more water. If you have to use coarse, then use less water or more verm.

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Offlinev3nn3m
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: Base Icks]
    #13808511 - 01/18/11 02:59 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

the people that suggest cource argue that you need a light and fluffy substrate, so that why i ask. and yes pf tec

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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: v3nn3m]
    #13808604 - 01/18/11 03:12 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

In mixes like the PF recipe, course verm allows more airspace, and ultimately faster colonization of the cakes.

In bulk mixes it also seems to make the subs more "airy".

Cant speak much for casings, but i would imagine the same.

I imagine fine verm would be better for rolling a cake, but i have no experience with cakes to speak of.

I'd lean towards course verm if just for faster colonization of substrate.

Edit: Base may on to something about water retention, i sure dont know how they'd compare.

-Flood

Edited by N2DFlood (01/18/11 03:13 PM)

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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: N2DFlood]
    #13808648 - 01/18/11 03:17 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

If you use coarse and include all of the water in the recipe, your going to water log your substrate and get bacteria contamination.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: v3nn3m]
    #13809139 - 01/18/11 04:29 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

Fine vermiculite.  Course verm is better suited as a building insulation, and fine verm is better suited for mycology.
RR


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InvisibleCakk
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13811123 - 01/18/11 09:53 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Fine vermiculite.  Course verm is better suited as a building insulation, and fine verm is better suited for mycology.
RR




Do you grind it up using a coffee grinder? Or would that make it too fine?

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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: Cakk]
    #13811372 - 01/18/11 10:29 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Using a coffee grinder would destroy the structure of the verm so it can not absorb water anymore.
U can use a colander to get the fine verm out of ur coarse.
Or better buy fine verm.

Edited by Luger0815 (01/18/11 10:33 PM)

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InvisibleCakk
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: Luger0815]
    #13811535 - 01/18/11 10:54 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Luger0815 said:
Using a coffee grinder would destroy the structure of the verm so it can not absorb water anymore.
U can use a colander to get the fine verm out of ur coarse.
Or better buy fine verm.




Alright ill try that.  I hope my bag of verm has alot of fine verm in it.

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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: Cakk]
    #13811757 - 01/18/11 11:42 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

dude just use the coarse.

its no biggy.


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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: k00laid]
    #13811930 - 01/19/11 12:20 AM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
dude just use the coarse.

its no biggy.



Alright I just want the best for my mushies :ooo:

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: k00laid]
    #13812424 - 01/19/11 03:50 AM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
dude just use the coarse.

its no biggy.




This is incorrect. 

The huge pieces of verm cause there to be far less substrate in each jar.  In addition, it holds less moisture so your jars will come out too wet.  Furthermore since the verm is so large, the brown rice flour settles out and collects on the bottom of the jar.  Course verm is drastically inferior to fine verm.
RR


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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13814106 - 01/19/11 01:08 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
This is incorrect. 

The huge pieces of verm cause there to be far less substrate in each jar.  In addition, it holds less moisture so your jars will come out too wet.  Furthermore since the verm is so large, the brown rice flour settles out and collects on the bottom of the jar.  Course verm is drastically inferior to fine verm.
RR




RR,

You say that fine verm is "better suited for mycology use." Are you referring to everything mycology or just the PF tek?  I'm wondering what your thoughts are on coarse verm for bulk substrates...?  I'm guessing coarse will work just fine but is just not optimal?

Thanks!

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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13814345 - 01/19/11 01:52 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

people use coarse all the time for pf tek.

is there something better? ya sure.

will they still get fruits? ya probly.

just dont toss out your 50 pound bag of verm because someone tells you there is something better.


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OfflineTraikun
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: k00laid]
    #13814413 - 01/19/11 02:06 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

I'm not really fond of the coarse verm I had that I used for my PF jars recently. In future I will be using only fine verm for inside my PF jars. There were several gaps of air space that I didn't like in the jars, that I did not have when I used fine verm previously.


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Offlinekdmmontana
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: k00laid]
    #13815372 - 01/19/11 04:55 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

A little story

I took a blender and blended my verm to a finer grade (mine was kinda coarse) before i used it in my experimental coffee jars (which I am fruiting now BTW)

The mycelium spread way faster with the fine grade verm than with the coarse grade I had used for my first jars. Water content was more stable and the jars never dried out.

I will have to try this a couple of more times to confirm it but think about the fact that I actually blended the Verm as well before use and the result was more than satisfying, altough I believe it was the coffee.

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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13815530 - 01/19/11 05:24 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

k00laid said:
dude just use the coarse.

its no biggy.




This is incorrect. 

The huge pieces of verm cause there to be far less substrate in each jar.  In addition, it holds less moisture so your jars will come out too wet.  Furthermore since the verm is so large, the brown rice flour settles out and collects on the bottom of the jar.  Course verm is drastically inferior to fine verm.
RR





I have had the opposite happen. Using fine verm on my first PF batch I had really slow colonization and 50% of the jars stopped colonizing at about 25%. When I finally birthed/dunked the cakes that finished, they never pinned. It seemed that the substrate was way too dense (even though I didn't pack it in at all) and that the mycelium had a really hard time penetrating it. When I broke the cakes apart after the failed pinning, the mycelium seemed overly dense and it looked like there wasn't a lot of room for water to go (when dunking).

This batch I used coarse (dime size) verm and the colonization has been much much faster and the myc looks a lot healthier. The water content also seems better in these new jars. The first batch developed condensation, while this one hasn't. I squeezed the water in and out of the coarse verm before adding the BRF - maybe that helps. I'm also guessing that the cakes will collect a lot more water when dunking, because of the fluffiness of the substrate.

Everything else was kept the same between these two batches. I will do more testing between the two in the future.


Is it bad that there is less substrate per jar if the mycelium grows better? I'd rather have less fruits and faster colonization times.

I vote coarse.

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Offlinekdmmontana
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: mmcakes]
    #13815597 - 01/19/11 05:34 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Your missing something here.

The stalling of your cakes could mean a lot of things, most common to my knowledge is bad air exchange. If you have coarse grade verm more air will be available for the mycelium to use but also, more water will evaporate from it, hence there is more room for water to escape. If the water cant escape the jar, it will settle at the bottom. If it can, the cakes will dry out. If it cant escape the jar, this means the holes in in are too small, hence the air exhange will be less, causing CO2 levels to build inside of the jar and hence this you jars will stall.

The correct water amount is not the same thing as proper dispersion of water in the substrate. The finer substrate will make it easier to control the dispersion of water and make that more even. This can relate to a number of factors, such as how you mixed the verm/water, how much water evaporated from your verm in the steamer etc etc.

When I used coarse grade verm I only had two holes in my jars, the jars dried faster (more air space) and there wasnt enough air exhange, hence the lowered speed of growth. I am seeing massive improvement with my coffee jars, that had fine verm inside of them (propably even finer than RR talks about). They key to that IMO was more holes and more even dispersion of water.

Feel free to contradict me as these are only guesses and parts of my own experience.

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OfflineOregonChronic
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: kdmmontana]
    #13816005 - 01/19/11 06:35 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

I just bought a gallon of coarse grade vermiculite for the PF tek...Should i do anything like add less water or more vermculite?

Im gonna be inoculating a few jars soon with it for my first grow.


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InvisiblePhoenix Crash
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: OregonChronic]
    #13816156 - 01/19/11 06:53 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

I've used fine grade verm in my PF Tek grows in the past, simply because that was all that was available in my area. I recently picked up some medium grade verm from eBay and it works way better than the fine stuff IMO. It seemed like the fine grade caused the mixture to become really dense, and it slowed the colonization considerably. So, I would have to say that I don't recommend fine or course, but something in the middle. To each his own though....

Edit: I'd like to mention that the fine grade is great for when you roll the cakes.:thumbup:


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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: Phoenix Crash]
    #13816321 - 01/19/11 07:13 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

I think im gonna open the bottom of the bag first so i can get the smaller chunks out.


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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: OregonChronic]
    #13818022 - 01/19/11 11:38 PM (14 years, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

OregonChronic said:
I just bought a gallon of coarse grade vermiculite for the PF tek...Should i do anything like add less water or more vermculite?

Im gonna be inoculating a few jars soon with it for my first grow.




I am no scientist, but I am sure of one thing. Colonization speeds arent depending that much on what Verm one uses. Regular mycelia in forests grow in way denser earths than any substrate we use, so we have proven that mushrooms are indeed strong. Besides, I have already had faster colonization speeds with the fine grade, so for once I am not talking out of my ass:P But then again, to the next guy, to each of his own...

IMO the key to successful colonization is as follows.

1. Enough air exchange
2. Enough water
3. Enough food for the mycelia (BRF)

The idea is to try to make sure that there is even amounts of all these factors. IMO simply mixing up the PF recipe wont do it(I have seen to many threads on the subject), one has to take care to make sure no pockets of dry substrate, unevenly mixed substrate etc occurs.
**This is no advice, merely a demonstration if my own method**
The method I use (which is in no way kosher, but this was how I did for the coffee cakes) is that I mix the water/verm (finer grade, I even blended it last time)/coffee and let it sit for about 1 hour. The I strain away all excess water with a collinder. After that I add enough BRF to make sure i get what I know is the proper stuff.**This is no advice, merely a demonstration of my own method**

As you can read, I dont follow the PF TEK to the letter. I dont tout the method above, its just simply the way I did it and I had massive improvement in both the health of the jars and the speed it colonized.

The rate of colonization depends much on the above stated factors, according to me(and in my experience, which isnt that great but I thought it was worth saying). If one had great colonization speed with coarse grade verm, it doesnt prove its the verm, its just a good balanced substrate. Yes there are extremes (one dont use pellet size verm for one thing) and of course we are not considering those but in the end, I just cant see evidence of that the Verm plays a hugely important role...

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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: kdmmontana]
    #13818098 - 01/19/11 11:52 PM (14 years, 20 hours ago)

I make my monster blocks using coarse verm.  I use the standard amount of water - 2 verm 1 water 1 rice bran.  It works wonderfully.  When stirring the course verm with water, letting it soak for 10 minutes, then stirring in the bran, the coarse verm gets broken down a bit by the agitation, and isn't quite so chunky anymore.

-Flood

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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: N2DFlood]
    #13818642 - 01/20/11 02:41 AM (14 years, 18 hours ago)

Good points Montana, makes sense to me. I will take all that into consideration in my next batch.

Not sure what you mean by "pellet size" but my coarse verm pieces are about the size of Captain Crunch cereal. Again though, the reason I'm liking the coarse so far is the ease of permeation (or so it seems) that the mycelium has. I love to look at all the cracks and spaces between the substrate. Looks nice and roomy in there, not all squished together like last time. My first jars really frustrated me, maybe I'm just finding solace in the new fluffy looking cakes.


Thanks for the advice demonstration of your methods!

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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: mmcakes]
    #13818779 - 01/20/11 04:18 AM (14 years, 16 hours ago)

I think as long as you make sure your substrate is balanced properly there shouldnt be a problem. I guess many people find both types useful, I just usually go with whats less "risky". Ive seen cakes on rougher substrates here and many of them seem to do just fine.

I usually mix everything up and then i stir it with my spoon a couple of extra times, I make sure all fills are fluffy and airy and I make sure I dont pack the substrate on the spoon before I fill it. I think the greatest cause for slow or stalled growth is that some people dont take care and stress thorugh the process, but then again; I still think I was mostly lucky the first times..

good luck!

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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: danksrus]
    #17292475 - 11/27/12 06:33 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

danksrus said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
This is incorrect. 

The huge pieces of verm cause there to be far less substrate in each jar.  In addition, it holds less moisture so your jars will come out too wet.  Furthermore since the verm is so large, the brown rice flour settles out and collects on the bottom of the jar.  Course verm is drastically inferior to fine verm.
RR




RR,

You say that fine verm is "better suited for mycology use." Are you referring to everything mycology or just the PF tek?  I'm wondering what your thoughts are on coarse verm for bulk substrates...?  I'm guessing coarse will work just fine but is just not optimal?

Thanks!




Resurrecting this because this was never answered and I was curious of exactly the same thing.


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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: DeadPhan]
    #17292551 - 11/27/12 06:48 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I found horticulture grade is actually the fine type, like sand.. prefer not to use that.. i like mid-grade to large for me.. but then again, i just use WBS.. vermiculite plays no role in my grow anymore.


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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: boneynerd]
    #17309157 - 11/30/12 01:34 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

:popcorn:


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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: boneynerd]
    #17309442 - 11/30/12 02:23 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

boneynerd said:
I found horticulture grade is actually the fine type, like sand.. prefer not to use that.. i like mid-grade to large for me.. but then again, i just use WBS.. vermiculite plays no role in my grow anymore.



They use all kinds of verm for horticultural purposes. It really depends on what they are growing and the type of soil it prefers. 

There are also industrial applications which it is used for such as swimming pools, packing, insulation, etc. They usually use coarse grade verm for these kinds of applications to the best of my knowledge. 


Gardening centers usually sell all three grades. Verm is very expensive at gardening centers so I get it at the local farmer supply.

To add insult to injury they have been bumping the price everywhere over the last year which definitely has gotten costly. It goes for about 1/3 more expensive than it was last year at this point around here.

Here are a few pics of the differences between grade....
Fine
Medium
course

Like RR mentioned earlier in the thread fine is the grade you want for mycology.

I actually use coarse verm but that is only because I use a mortar mixer to blend the ingredients for my substrate so the verm gets broken down into fine bits by the drill before I hydrate the sub.

For cakes you definitely want to use fine verm.... Casings too....

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