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Offlinev3nn3m
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Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? * 1
    #13808466 - 01/18/11 02:53 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

is there any significant differences between growing with eather? i researched and most people say to use a cource verm but there are a lot the suggest a fine verm...

which would be better?


thanks

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InvisibleBase Icks
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: v3nn3m]
    #13808494 - 01/18/11 02:57 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

RR says to use fine for mycological use.

I use fine verm.


If you are doing pftek I suggest fine verm. It absorbs more water. If you have to use coarse, then use less water or more verm.

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Offlinev3nn3m
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: Base Icks]
    #13808511 - 01/18/11 02:59 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

the people that suggest cource argue that you need a light and fluffy substrate, so that why i ask. and yes pf tec

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InvisibleN2DFlood
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: v3nn3m]
    #13808604 - 01/18/11 03:12 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

In mixes like the PF recipe, course verm allows more airspace, and ultimately faster colonization of the cakes.

In bulk mixes it also seems to make the subs more "airy".

Cant speak much for casings, but i would imagine the same.

I imagine fine verm would be better for rolling a cake, but i have no experience with cakes to speak of.

I'd lean towards course verm if just for faster colonization of substrate.

Edit: Base may on to something about water retention, i sure dont know how they'd compare.

-Flood

Edited by N2DFlood (01/18/11 03:13 PM)

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InvisibleBase Icks
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: N2DFlood]
    #13808648 - 01/18/11 03:17 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

If you use coarse and include all of the water in the recipe, your going to water log your substrate and get bacteria contamination.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: v3nn3m]
    #13809139 - 01/18/11 04:29 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

Fine vermiculite.  Course verm is better suited as a building insulation, and fine verm is better suited for mycology.
RR


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InvisibleCakk
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13811123 - 01/18/11 09:53 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Fine vermiculite.  Course verm is better suited as a building insulation, and fine verm is better suited for mycology.
RR




Do you grind it up using a coffee grinder? Or would that make it too fine?

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InvisibleLuger0815
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: Cakk]
    #13811372 - 01/18/11 10:29 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Using a coffee grinder would destroy the structure of the verm so it can not absorb water anymore.
U can use a colander to get the fine verm out of ur coarse.
Or better buy fine verm.

Edited by Luger0815 (01/18/11 10:33 PM)

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InvisibleCakk
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: Luger0815]
    #13811535 - 01/18/11 10:54 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Luger0815 said:
Using a coffee grinder would destroy the structure of the verm so it can not absorb water anymore.
U can use a colander to get the fine verm out of ur coarse.
Or better buy fine verm.




Alright ill try that.  I hope my bag of verm has alot of fine verm in it.

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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: Cakk]
    #13811757 - 01/18/11 11:42 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

dude just use the coarse.

its no biggy.


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InvisibleCakk
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: k00laid]
    #13811930 - 01/19/11 12:20 AM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
dude just use the coarse.

its no biggy.



Alright I just want the best for my mushies :ooo:

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: k00laid]
    #13812424 - 01/19/11 03:50 AM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
dude just use the coarse.

its no biggy.




This is incorrect. 

The huge pieces of verm cause there to be far less substrate in each jar.  In addition, it holds less moisture so your jars will come out too wet.  Furthermore since the verm is so large, the brown rice flour settles out and collects on the bottom of the jar.  Course verm is drastically inferior to fine verm.
RR


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Offlinedanksrus
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13814106 - 01/19/11 01:08 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
This is incorrect. 

The huge pieces of verm cause there to be far less substrate in each jar.  In addition, it holds less moisture so your jars will come out too wet.  Furthermore since the verm is so large, the brown rice flour settles out and collects on the bottom of the jar.  Course verm is drastically inferior to fine verm.
RR




RR,

You say that fine verm is "better suited for mycology use." Are you referring to everything mycology or just the PF tek?  I'm wondering what your thoughts are on coarse verm for bulk substrates...?  I'm guessing coarse will work just fine but is just not optimal?

Thanks!

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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13814345 - 01/19/11 01:52 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

people use coarse all the time for pf tek.

is there something better? ya sure.

will they still get fruits? ya probly.

just dont toss out your 50 pound bag of verm because someone tells you there is something better.


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OfflineTraikun
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: k00laid]
    #13814413 - 01/19/11 02:06 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

I'm not really fond of the coarse verm I had that I used for my PF jars recently. In future I will be using only fine verm for inside my PF jars. There were several gaps of air space that I didn't like in the jars, that I did not have when I used fine verm previously.


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Offlinekdmmontana
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: k00laid]
    #13815372 - 01/19/11 04:55 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

A little story

I took a blender and blended my verm to a finer grade (mine was kinda coarse) before i used it in my experimental coffee jars (which I am fruiting now BTW)

The mycelium spread way faster with the fine grade verm than with the coarse grade I had used for my first jars. Water content was more stable and the jars never dried out.

I will have to try this a couple of more times to confirm it but think about the fact that I actually blended the Verm as well before use and the result was more than satisfying, altough I believe it was the coffee.

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Offlinemmcakes
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13815530 - 01/19/11 05:24 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

k00laid said:
dude just use the coarse.

its no biggy.




This is incorrect. 

The huge pieces of verm cause there to be far less substrate in each jar.  In addition, it holds less moisture so your jars will come out too wet.  Furthermore since the verm is so large, the brown rice flour settles out and collects on the bottom of the jar.  Course verm is drastically inferior to fine verm.
RR





I have had the opposite happen. Using fine verm on my first PF batch I had really slow colonization and 50% of the jars stopped colonizing at about 25%. When I finally birthed/dunked the cakes that finished, they never pinned. It seemed that the substrate was way too dense (even though I didn't pack it in at all) and that the mycelium had a really hard time penetrating it. When I broke the cakes apart after the failed pinning, the mycelium seemed overly dense and it looked like there wasn't a lot of room for water to go (when dunking).

This batch I used coarse (dime size) verm and the colonization has been much much faster and the myc looks a lot healthier. The water content also seems better in these new jars. The first batch developed condensation, while this one hasn't. I squeezed the water in and out of the coarse verm before adding the BRF - maybe that helps. I'm also guessing that the cakes will collect a lot more water when dunking, because of the fluffiness of the substrate.

Everything else was kept the same between these two batches. I will do more testing between the two in the future.


Is it bad that there is less substrate per jar if the mycelium grows better? I'd rather have less fruits and faster colonization times.

I vote coarse.

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Offlinekdmmontana
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: mmcakes]
    #13815597 - 01/19/11 05:34 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Your missing something here.

The stalling of your cakes could mean a lot of things, most common to my knowledge is bad air exchange. If you have coarse grade verm more air will be available for the mycelium to use but also, more water will evaporate from it, hence there is more room for water to escape. If the water cant escape the jar, it will settle at the bottom. If it can, the cakes will dry out. If it cant escape the jar, this means the holes in in are too small, hence the air exhange will be less, causing CO2 levels to build inside of the jar and hence this you jars will stall.

The correct water amount is not the same thing as proper dispersion of water in the substrate. The finer substrate will make it easier to control the dispersion of water and make that more even. This can relate to a number of factors, such as how you mixed the verm/water, how much water evaporated from your verm in the steamer etc etc.

When I used coarse grade verm I only had two holes in my jars, the jars dried faster (more air space) and there wasnt enough air exhange, hence the lowered speed of growth. I am seeing massive improvement with my coffee jars, that had fine verm inside of them (propably even finer than RR talks about). They key to that IMO was more holes and more even dispersion of water.

Feel free to contradict me as these are only guesses and parts of my own experience.

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OfflineOregonChronic
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: kdmmontana]
    #13816005 - 01/19/11 06:35 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

I just bought a gallon of coarse grade vermiculite for the PF tek...Should i do anything like add less water or more vermculite?

Im gonna be inoculating a few jars soon with it for my first grow.


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InvisiblePhoenix Crash
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Re: Course Vermiculite Vs Fine Vermiculite...? [Re: OregonChronic]
    #13816156 - 01/19/11 06:53 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

I've used fine grade verm in my PF Tek grows in the past, simply because that was all that was available in my area. I recently picked up some medium grade verm from eBay and it works way better than the fine stuff IMO. It seemed like the fine grade caused the mixture to become really dense, and it slowed the colonization considerably. So, I would have to say that I don't recommend fine or course, but something in the middle. To each his own though....

Edit: I'd like to mention that the fine grade is great for when you roll the cakes.:thumbup:


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Edited by Phoenix Crash (01/19/11 07:02 PM)

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