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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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S&M
    #1377874 - 03/15/03 09:56 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

would you consider the possibility that sane, healthy people would desire the mixture of sexual pleasure mixed with painful torture to experience extraordinary ecstatic experiences - do you think these experiences could satisfy spiritual needs or merely as recreation? or, would you reserve s&m to perverts and derelicts alone (as obviously some are, but more than likely not all).



you can go a little deeper
i'm wearing these chains
you make it hurt real good
i love the pain


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: S&M [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1377927 - 03/15/03 10:23 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

What are you looking for?

S-n-M is purely a sensual experience in my opinion. When a person becomes bored with "normal" physical pleasure, they can resort to S-n-M.

There is nothing spiritual about it in my opinion.

BUT, sensual experience can lead to spiritual conclusions. If you know what I mean.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: S&M [Re: sirreal]
    #1378089 - 03/15/03 11:53 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

looking for? i'm just talking about radically altered states of consciousness, ecstatic experiences... i seek them, ritually, because they fulfill what i can only describe as some of my deepest longings... they're magickal. this is my Westernized understanding of tantra, which I experience while jamming out with my friends, reading poetry at the bar, dancing, beating drums, smoking dmt, having sex.
I'm just talking about the leaps in consciousness one might make through altering between or concurrently experiencing intense states of pleasure and pain. everything from joyce to nietzsche to my own experiences have had me thinking about this today, 'tis all.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: S&M [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1378099 - 03/15/03 11:59 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think you understood what I was saying.

You are trying to fulfill yourself "sensually". You will never understand what spirituality means when you still struggle with the "sensual"!



--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (03/15/03 12:00 PM)


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: S&M [Re: sirreal]
    #1378208 - 03/15/03 01:05 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Well, I'd argue that much of American consumerism and means of gratification are robbing the soul of its precious sensuousness, in fact, the goal of ritual, as I understand it to be, is the revival, renewal, restoration, and exhaltation of inner most sensualities.

Of course you're supposed to fulfill yourself physically, think of it as being a baby that's irritated and whining or cooing, on merely that level, if you're constantly being disturbed on a purely physical level, that's indicative of bad circuitry... I guess, in such a constant state of irritation, you could gobble, smoke, and shoot up opiates, that's one way I'd understand what you're saying by "trying to fulfill yourself sensually" while you're still struggling with your sensuality.
Of course, the same could be applied to emotional, rational, and sexual irritations of all sorts (and other corresponding chemical dependencies and dysfunctional habbits).

See what I'm getting at? I'm a pagan man, not a puritan.

I intend to explore the depths of my sensuality, not to contract it or damage it.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: S&M [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1378284 - 03/15/03 01:43 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

You are not even trying to answer my question!

You are avoiding it! I don't think you can answer my question!


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: S&M [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1378292 - 03/15/03 01:46 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

would you consider the possibility that sane, healthy people would desire the mixture of sexual pleasure mixed with painful torture...



Sounds like you're talking about marriage...


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: S&M [Re: Evolving]
    #1378305 - 03/15/03 01:52 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

:grin: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Offlinesirreal
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Re: S&M [Re: sirreal]
    #1378327 - 03/15/03 02:04 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Cosmicjoke, Nothing has meaning! Nothing! What does that mean?


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Offlinesirreal
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Registered: 01/11/03
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Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: S&M [Re: sirreal]
    #1378348 - 03/15/03 02:12 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

You are fooled!


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: S&M [Re: sirreal]
    #1378390 - 03/15/03 02:33 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

i didn't realize you asked a question, beyond "what are you looking for?" i'm not trying to avoid it, i guess you just need to make yourself more clear.

obviously, i'm looking for your reactions to the concepts i've presented - on one level or another, stimulating or not, they're informing - what more could i realistically want?
personally, i understand the term psychedelic as merely that which alters or enlarges consciousness, in which newly acquired perceptions might be as accurate as normal awareness, or even more accurate.
essentially, i was entertaining the idea of S&M as psychedelic, and looking for feedback.

to analyze what it means that our '5 senses' can't sense the fact of our own existance, well, everyone has to Witness for themselves - spiritually, Witnessing is integral to whatever trip you're on, be it S&M or yogic asanas.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,269
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Re: S&M [Re: sirreal]
    #1378407 - 03/15/03 02:41 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

as spiritual and compassionate as you certainly must be, please don't carry on like so on my behalf, it's rather annoying to us sensualists - maybe next incarnation, bro.



--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: S&M [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1378569 - 03/15/03 04:16 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

S&M simply excersizes the id without reprocussions from the superego. It isn't rape if its consentual .......or violent I guess.



--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Invisiblechodamunky
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Registered: 02/28/02
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Re: S&M [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1378650 - 03/15/03 04:59 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

what exactly is S&M, Symphony and Metallica? great music.  :grin:


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: S&M [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1381373 - 03/16/03 03:09 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

not my opinions, par se, but fascinating all the same - even more interesting in context to the full article.


Mysticism and Pain

Mystics throughout history have used physical and sexual stress to raise endorphins and engender a visionary experience. Mystics ability to endure pain while in trance serves as proof of their spirituality. In the Voodoo religious culture, the Ogoun, a deity of power, often infuses devotees with strength and power by slapping
them firmly on the arms, thighs and back. Likewise, many bottoms in a B&D scene feel that slaps or blows
from a whip infuse them with power. Examples of religious uses of pain include fire walking, the Native American sun dance, piercing, the ancient Hindu Kavandi ritual and flagellation. Additionally, the Babas of India demonstrate their transcendence over sexuality by hanging several large stones or bricks from their penises. Sacred pain emphasized the humanity of Jesus, who suffered pain in order to redeem others. "Pain for medieval Christians served as a sign and means of contact with the divine" and meaningful divine punishment. "Had they denied pain, the medieval Christian community would have erased its spiritual value. A meaningless pain would threaten to cast them back upon an utterly meaningless world." St. Catherine equated bodily pain as a means and symbol for Godly unity in which suffering is "indistinguishable from love." Thus pain and suffering often intertwined with the medieval Christians concept of beauty.

from:
Sadomasochism and Herstory:
Philosophy of Female Domination and Spirituality
By Empress Jina
http://www.empressjina.com/philosophy.htm



--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: S&M [Re: Evolving]
    #1381569 - 03/16/03 04:30 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

LOL !!!


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: S&M [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1381624 - 03/16/03 04:49 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

...and Teresa of Avila met the compulsion to put her lips and tongue to the most disgusting loogy she ever saw hocked upon God's Earth. Masochism is a mental disorder, plain and simple. There is more than a dash of it in my personality, but fortunately, it has been in remission for at least half a dozen years. Physical pain was never the issue (except, perhaps, in the discomfort of wearing too-tight blue jeans - but the discomfort is a side-effect, not the object). I no longer allow people to treat me badly. Period.

Christianity has its share of S&M. The Holy Inquisition was carried on by beings that would've frightened the Marquis deSade himself. What, if not sexual sadists, were these black hooded monsters?! Masochism of the Flagellants, flogging themselves on their trudge across Europe in the guize of mortifying the flesh. Complete perversion of polymorphous sexuality. Yearly voluntary crucifixions at Easter [Ishtar] time? More thinly veiled masochistic sexuality, attended by numerous blood-lusting sadists. The martyrs of yore? This s**t ain't normal dude - not legitimate spiritual techniques in the Judao-Christian gameplan. The intentional pursuit of pain is so peripheral, so skewed from the central Truth, so incredibly weird, that based on a saying attributed to Paul that Believers shall take up serpents and not be harmed...that we have snake-handling churches in the Ozark hills, located deeply within the Twilight Zone of Christendom. Any damn thing can be demonized.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: S&M [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1381644 - 03/16/03 04:57 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Funny, but not too surprising that you mentioned Avila - I had been thinking about her for an hour or so earlier today.


A Reappraisal of Teresa of Avila's Supposed Hysteria

by Christopher M. Bache, Ph.D.

http://www.primalpage.com/bache3.htm

You've got to read this, if you already haven't, it analyses her in terms of perinatal symptoms. The concept of "perinatal symptomology" is taken from Stanislav Grof's work in LSD-assisted psychotherapy.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Re: S&M [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1381698 - 03/16/03 05:14 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Well, I still think you should evaluate each case on its own terms, as there simply must be myriads of different behaviors and personality types, many unsensed areas of consciousness that we have not identified, of people who would identify with the term *S&M* - with radically different notions of just exactly what S&M *is* (all this *is* is metaphor, afterall). Sometime, I'd like to resume this post and give you a few scenarios to consider.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineViveka
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Re: S&M [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1382115 - 03/16/03 09:07 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I agree. "S&M" is Sado-Masochims which meanss the inflicting ofpain on oneself. This could entail all sorts of methods. From the self conflagration of early monks, to the modern practice of decadant sexual gratification with leather and chains.

But i think that most, if n ot all spirituality is lost in the modern s&m practice. For it is merely a pleasure seeking principle. My spiritualtiy comes mostly from the east,so i feel that pleasure and sensual gratification is mainly an obstacle to forward progression on the path. But i am not so static as to believe that there could not possibly be some sort of gain through sensual perversion. But i am also drunk on cabernet sauvignon so this post should be highly disregarded.


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