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random_wanderer


Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 124
Loc:
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Are you enlightened?
#13756377 - 01/09/11 06:26 AM (13 years, 22 days ago) |
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The Self is already realised, we just dont realise it yet, ask yourself, who is the experiencer, and you shall see that the experience and the experiencer are but one. --- random_wanderer with mystical dangly bits hahahahahaha
Easy to talk the talk aye! xxx
I consult scripture, worship, meditate and pray*. I am not enlightened. But i still do these because for me it helps me to understand and better attune myself with my life while i am still ignorant. Because of this and a deep personal intuition i shall continue to do so.
I experience spiritual contentment quite often and I have deep meditative experiences (as many people do), but i am not Self realised. I am not Enlightened, these are just the tinyest of glimpses in my opinion.
Some people (perhaps i have in the past) make statements... "Of course i am Self realised, we all are, the true Self is never unrealised, once you..." 
...as if they are fully awake. But i wonder if they have perhaps misconstrued mystical teachings about Reality conceptually with the whole positive mental attitude thing, if you assert the Self to be not realised then you are making this a reality. This is wrong in my opinion, reality is reality, whether you claim to be self realised or not, reality does not change. Why not just be honest?
Both my "not realised" position and the "realised" positions are two sides of the same coin.
Quote:
If you think that you know well the truth of Brahamn, know that you know little. What you think to be Brahman in your self, or what you think to be Brahman in the gods - that is not Brahman. What is indeed the truth of Brahman you must therefore learn. I cannot say that i know Brahman fully. Nor can i say that i know him not. He among us knows him best who understands the spirit of the words: "Nor do i know that i know him not." --- Kena Upanishad
I think that not knowing is the important point here.
Here is an Upanishad that i think says a lot about learning.
Quote:
It is said of old: The Self, which is free from impurities, from old age and death, from grief, from hunger and thirst, which desires nothing but what it ought to desire, and resolves nothing but what it ought to resolve, is to be sought after, is to be inquired about, is to be realised. He who learns about the Self and realises it obtains all the worlds and all desires. The gods and demons both heard of this truth, and they thought to themselves, "Let us seek after and realise this Self, so that we may obtain all the worlds and all desires." There upon Indra from the gods, and Virochana from the demons, went to Prajapati, the reknowned teacher. For thirtytwo years they lived with him as pupils. Then Prajapati asked them why they had both lived with him so long. "We have heard," they replied, "that one who realises the Self obtains all the worlds and all desires. We have lived here because we wantr to learn of the Self." Thn said Prajapati: "That which is seen in the eye - that is the Self. That is immortal, that is fearless, and that is Brahman." "Sir," inquired the disciples, "is that Self which is seen reflected in the water or in the mirror?" "The Self is indeed seen reflected in these," was the reply. Then Prajapati added, "Look at yourselves in the water, and whatever you do not understand, come and tell me about it." Indra and Virochana gazed on their reflections in the water, and returning to the sage, they said: "sir, we have seen the Self; we have seen even the hair and the nails." Then Prajapati bade them don their finest clothes and look again in the water. This they did, and returning to the sage, they said: "We have seen the Self, exactly like ourselves, well adorned and in our finest clothes." To which Prajapati rejoined: "The Self is indeed seen in these. The Self is immortal and fearless, and it is Brahman." And the pupils went away well pleased. But Prajapati looking after them, lamented thus: "Both of them departed without analyzing or discriminating, and without truly comprehending the Self. Whosoever follows a false doctrine of the Self will perish." Now Virochana, satisfied for his part that he had found out the Self, returned to the demons and began to teach them that the body alone is to be worshiped, that the body alone is to be served, and that he who worships the body and serves the body gains both worlds, this and the next. Such doctrine is, in very truth, the doctrine of the demons! But Indra, on his way back to the gods, realised the uselessness of this knowledge. "As the Self," he reasoned, "seems to be well adorned when the body is well adorned, well dressed when the body is well dressed, so will it be blind when the body is blind, lame when the body is lame, deformed when the body is deformed. When the body dies, this same Self will also die! In such knowledge i can see no good." So he returned to Prajapati and asked for further instruction. Prajapati required him to live with him for another thirtytwo years, after which time he taght him thus: "That which moves about in dreams, enjoying sensuous delights and clothed glory, that is the Self. That is immortal, that is fearless, and that is Brahman." Pleased with what he had heard, Indra again departed. But before he had reached the other gods he realised the uselessness of this knowledge also. "True it is," he thought to himself, "that this Self is not blind, nor lame or hurt when the body is lame or hurt. But even in dreams it is conscious of many sufferings. So in this doctrine also i can see no good." So he went back to Prajapati for further instruction. Prajapati now bade him live with him for another thirtytwo years, and when the time had passed taught him, saying, "When a man is sound aslepp, free from dreams, and at perfect rest - that is the Self. The Self is immortal and fearless, and it is Brahman." Indra went away. But before he had reached his home, he felt the uselessness even of this knowledge. "In reality," thought he, "one does not know oneself as this or as that while asleep. One is not conscious, in fact of any existence at all. The state of one in deep sleep is next to annihilation. I can see no good in this knowledge either." So once more Indra went back to Prajapati, who bade him stay with him yet five years, and when the time had passed, made known to him the highest truth of the Self, saying: "This body is mortal, always gripped by death, but within it dwells the immortal Self. This Self, when associated in our consciousness with the body, is subject to pleasure and pain; and so long as this association continues, freedom from pleasure and pain can no man find. but as this association ceases, there ceases also the pleasure and pain." "Rising above physical consciousness, knowing the Self to be distinct from the senses and the mind - knowing it in its true light - one rejoices and is free." The gods, the luminous ones, meditate on the Self, and by so doing obtain all the worlds and all desires. In like manner, whosoever among mortals knows the Self, meditates upon it, and realises it - he too obtains all worlds and all desires. --- Chandogya Upanishad
What are your thoughts and feelings?
*This is within the context of my spiritual activities, i also eat chocolate cake and watch dvd's etc.
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jivJaN
yes


Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,245
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Quote:
"When a man is sound aslepp, free from dreams, and at perfect rest - that is the Self. The Self is immortal and fearless, and it is Brahman."
ok..
but why
Quote:
he felt the uselessness even of this knowledge. "In reality," thought he, "one does not know oneself as this or as that while asleep. One is not conscious, in fact of any existence at all. The state of one in deep sleep is next to annihilation. I can see no good in this knowledge either.
why this ? and what makes the continuation of the text somehow more meaningful than this ? where do they touch upon this paradox ? i don't see it.
the uselessness was felt because the seeker was still searching purpose in existence. where will this 'knowledge' take me next. what will i get out of it.
you don't get anything out of it but i reckon it is this way. the true self.. the one self.. that which we claim to seek and that which we have named creator - does not exist.
forgive my megalomania for a second here and just consider that what i am about to say, in response to your well thought out and almost student like approach, to what you have called "realizing yourself" or becoming "enlightened", is something that might be looked upon and perhaps even dogmatized by people in our future exploring our interaction on the web and understandings of spirituality and consciousness.
There is one thing that is certain. We live in a causal world. Cause and effect dominate all of movement , all of dynamic in all of existence. Consider each event being a single domino , participating in the chain of events. Ask yourself - what made the first domino fall ? I'm sure you have asked yourself this already. But do it again.
If we know for certain that we exist in a causal universe , then whatever it is that knocked over that first domino must not be confined by these rules of causality. It must not .. be a domino. Nothing must precede it. LITERALLY 
If creation is everything, the creator must be nothing. What else can it be ?
I am realized , despite how you want to see it. I know something most people don't. I know something your gurus don't. I know.. that it doesn't matter what you know.
there is no glorious quest. there is no return to being the true self. there is no plunging into nothingness and no nirvana for your happily ever after scenario.
This is our universe. The totality of existence belongs to itself. We have infinity to explore and that infinity is who we are.
What you seek.. is the core of it all. Our roots are not in the stars. They are in the pure unconscious nothingness. The continuously rebirthing infinite potential. We are but riding a wave that has not yet came nor gone. Very simple yet we are reluctant to indulge this realization , because as i said already and as your text goes to show , we find this realization useless.
The purpose has been taken away. The direction is but stripped. The car has lost its gps so where the fuck will it go ? We don't wanna go in circles do we ? WE want guidance GOD DAMMIT !!!
But how will you , a lie.. a mirage.. a mere probability among countless other probabilities IMAGINING to be of some importance , of some worth... how will that come to understand the very truth it runs from.
When will you ever forgive the devil for trying to destroy it all ?

You need not spend 32 years to learn. What you learn will be what you have sought to hear. I say to you, go look into the mirror. Look at the reflection and tell me - can it and will it ever be able to see you ?
Tell me.. what would the reflection see.. if it looked into the mirror ?

forgive me. after all this has been said i still have NOTHING for you. perhaps a pretty flower ?
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--------------------- All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional. They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively. I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal. If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Quote:
random_wanderer said: Both my "not realised" position and the "realised" positions are two sides of the same coin.
Self Realization is realizing what is already here all the time, the Self, which is total silence So the idea 'I have realized!' is not realization as it is not silence So in a way, as you say, realized/not realized are two sides of the same coin, but only as ideas
True realization is not either side of the coin, yet includes both It's not an idea, but it allows all ideas their existence
Its such a subtle thing to realize really, i just keep quiet as much as possible & stay aware of the Self The more i turn attention to the Self the more serene my state is, and there's an endless depth to that serenity The mental realizations/illuminations tend to unfold from that space, even without any desire to see anything
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Are you enlightened? [Re: Chronic7] 1
#13757110 - 01/09/11 10:55 AM (13 years, 22 days ago) |
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I'm enlightened. Nuff said.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deff
just love everyone



Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
Loc: clarity
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Re: Are you enlightened? [Re: Icelander] 1
#13757279 - 01/09/11 11:52 AM (13 years, 22 days ago) |
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i'm not
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WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 5,713
Loc: Nacada
Last seen: 9 months, 14 days
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How can I answer either Yes or No to this question?
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Are you enlightened? [Re: WScott] 1
#13757304 - 01/09/11 12:05 PM (13 years, 22 days ago) |
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If I say I'm enlightened, how much will you pay me to become your Guru?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Are you enlightened? [Re: deCypher] 1
#13757323 - 01/09/11 12:12 PM (13 years, 22 days ago) |
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Hey buddy I was here first.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 5,713
Loc: Nacada
Last seen: 9 months, 14 days
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Re: Are you enlightened? [Re: deCypher] 1
#13757884 - 01/09/11 02:31 PM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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Are you as funny as this kai?
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BluePixieWaves



Registered: 12/19/09
Posts: 1,833
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
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Re: Are you enlightened? [Re: jivJaN] 1
#13760760 - 01/09/11 10:53 PM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
jivJaN said:
Quote:
"When a man is sound aslepp, free from dreams, and at perfect rest - that is the Self. The Self is immortal and fearless, and it is Brahman."
ok..
but why
Quote:
he felt the uselessness even of this knowledge. "In reality," thought he, "one does not know oneself as this or as that while asleep. One is not conscious, in fact of any existence at all. The state of one in deep sleep is next to annihilation. I can see no good in this knowledge either.
why this ? and what makes the continuation of the text somehow more meaningful than this ? where do they touch upon this paradox ? i don't see it.
the uselessness was felt because the seeker was still searching purpose in existence. where will this 'knowledge' take me next. what will i get out of it.
you don't get anything out of it but i reckon it is this way. the true self.. the one self.. that which we claim to seek and that which we have named creator - does not exist.
forgive my megalomania for a second here and just consider that what i am about to say, in response to your well thought out and almost student like approach, to what you have called "realizing yourself" or becoming "enlightened", is something that might be looked upon and perhaps even dogmatized by people in our future exploring our interaction on the web and understandings of spirituality and consciousness.
There is one thing that is certain. We live in a causal world. Cause and effect dominate all of movement , all of dynamic in all of existence. Consider each event being a single domino , participating in the chain of events. Ask yourself - what made the first domino fall ? I'm sure you have asked yourself this already. But do it again.
If we know for certain that we exist in a causal universe , then whatever it is that knocked over that first domino must not be confined by these rules of causality. It must not .. be a domino. Nothing must precede it. LITERALLY 
If creation is everything, the creator must be nothing. What else can it be ?
I am realized , despite how you want to see it. I know something most people don't. I know something your gurus don't. I know.. that it doesn't matter what you know.
there is no glorious quest. there is no return to being the true self. there is no plunging into nothingness and no nirvana for your happily ever after scenario.
This is our universe. The totality of existence belongs to itself. We have infinity to explore and that infinity is who we are.
What you seek.. is the core of it all. Our roots are not in the stars. They are in the pure unconscious nothingness. The continuously rebirthing infinite potential. We are but riding a wave that has not yet came nor gone. Very simple yet we are reluctant to indulge this realization , because as i said already and as your text goes to show , we find this realization useless.
The purpose has been taken away. The direction is but stripped. The car has lost its gps so where the fuck will it go ? We don't wanna go in circles do we ? WE want guidance GOD DAMMIT !!!
But how will you , a lie.. a mirage.. a mere probability among countless other probabilities IMAGINING to be of some importance , of some worth... how will that come to understand the very truth it runs from.
When will you ever forgive the devil for trying to destroy it all ?

You need not spend 32 years to learn. What you learn will be what you have sought to hear. I say to you, go look into the mirror. Look at the reflection and tell me - can it and will it ever be able to see you ?
Tell me.. what would the reflection see.. if it looked into the mirror ?

forgive me. after all this has been said i still have NOTHING for you. perhaps a pretty flower ?

Amazing post my friend.
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe



Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Re: Are you enlightened? [Re: Chronic7] 1
#13761178 - 01/10/11 12:03 AM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said:
Quote:
random_wanderer said: Both my "not realised" position and the "realised" positions are two sides of the same coin.
Self Realization is realizing what is already here all the time, the Self, which is total silence So the idea 'I have realized!' is not realization as it is not silence So in a way, as you say, realized/not realized are two sides of the same coin, but only as ideas
True realization is not either side of the coin, yet includes both It's not an idea, but it allows all ideas their existence
Its such a subtle thing to realize really, i just keep quiet as much as possible & stay aware of the Self The more i turn attention to the Self the more serene my state is, and there's an endless depth to that serenity The mental realizations/illuminations tend to unfold from that space, even without any desire to see anything

I feel just like OP does, and have been wrestling with similar thoughts and concepts, but this reply was most satisfactory!
-------------------- Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
Edited by Ginseng1 (01/10/11 12:09 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Are you enlightened? [Re: jivJaN] 1
#13761340 - 01/10/11 12:36 AM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
jivJaN said:
Quote:
"When a man is sound aslepp, free from dreams, and at perfect rest - that is the Self. The Self is immortal and fearless, and it is Brahman."
ok..
but why
Quote:
he felt the uselessness even of this knowledge. "In reality," thought he, "one does not know oneself as this or as that while asleep. One is not conscious, in fact of any existence at all. The state of one in deep sleep is next to annihilation. I can see no good in this knowledge either.
why this ? and what makes the continuation of the text somehow more meaningful than this ? where do they touch upon this paradox ? i don't see it.
the uselessness was felt because the seeker was still searching purpose in existence. where will this 'knowledge' take me next. what will i get out of it.
you don't get anything out of it but i reckon it is this way. the true self.. the one self.. that which we claim to seek and that which we have named creator - does not exist.
forgive my megalomania for a second here and just consider that what i am about to say, in response to your well thought out and almost student like approach, to what you have called "realizing yourself" or becoming "enlightened", is something that might be looked upon and perhaps even dogmatized by people in our future exploring our interaction on the web and understandings of spirituality and consciousness.
There is one thing that is certain. We live in a causal world. Cause and effect dominate all of movement , all of dynamic in all of existence. Consider each event being a single domino , participating in the chain of events. Ask yourself - what made the first domino fall ? I'm sure you have asked yourself this already. But do it again.
If we know for certain that we exist in a causal universe , then whatever it is that knocked over that first domino must not be confined by these rules of causality. It must not .. be a domino. Nothing must precede it. LITERALLY 
If creation is everything, the creator must be nothing. What else can it be ?
I am realized , despite how you want to see it. I know something most people don't. I know something your gurus don't. I know.. that it doesn't matter what you know.
there is no glorious quest. there is no return to being the true self. there is no plunging into nothingness and no nirvana for your happily ever after scenario.
This is our universe. The totality of existence belongs to itself. We have infinity to explore and that infinity is who we are.
What you seek.. is the core of it all. Our roots are not in the stars. They are in the pure unconscious nothingness. The continuously rebirthing infinite potential. We are but riding a wave that has not yet came nor gone. Very simple yet we are reluctant to indulge this realization , because as i said already and as your text goes to show , we find this realization useless.
The purpose has been taken away. The direction is but stripped. The car has lost its gps so where the fuck will it go ? We don't wanna go in circles do we ? WE want guidance GOD DAMMIT !!!
But how will you , a lie.. a mirage.. a mere probability among countless other probabilities IMAGINING to be of some importance , of some worth... how will that come to understand the very truth it runs from.
When will you ever forgive the devil for trying to destroy it all ?

You need not spend 32 years to learn. What you learn will be what you have sought to hear. I say to you, go look into the mirror. Look at the reflection and tell me - can it and will it ever be able to see you ?
Tell me.. what would the reflection see.. if it looked into the mirror ?

forgive me. after all this has been said i still have NOTHING for you. perhaps a pretty flower ?

While I don't claim to be able to follow everything you've said. (or maybe I do ) I'm pretty sure you are on to something of major import. Something that leads past the "cosmic" revelations of most psychonauts and spiritual seekers.
Very simple yet we are reluctant to indulge this realization , because as i said already and as your text goes to show , we find this realization useless.
I'm guessing now that you and I have been following the same path. The one that as Don Juan said " is only a path, a path that leads into the bush and back out of the bush, like all paths, and in the end they all meet, and all the paths are equal, and the only question for the warrior is, does this path have a heart?"
If you take my meaning here.
Your's may be the best (most accurate imo) post I have seen in this forum in all these years.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head


Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
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Re: Are you enlightened? [Re: Icelander] 1
#13761523 - 01/10/11 01:17 AM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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I would say we overrate the term 'enlightenment' and anyone who lives in a natural ecstasy, and experiences peace, is enlightened.
There would be no need for the term enlightenment if it wasn't for the state of our society. We're effectively brainwashed/conditioned out of happiness. I don't know if it's a mistake or not...
The Self, really, truly, is realised right now, just get on with things. You're waiting for the Self, but what you're really waiting for is for you to get on with things. I like the idea that the experience and the experiencer are one... makes it all a bit clearer when you're thinking.
I might be jumping ahead a bit but I think it's all about refining your thought pattern into simpler and simpler concepts and 'reminders' and pointers to the Self until such time as all that shines is the Self on its own, and the thoughts, at least the 'dreamy' reflective or knowledge-seeking thoughts, disappear. Not all thought disappears, I mean, you reading this takes thought, breathing is a kind of thought, so is any kind of movement. 'Stopping all thought' is a bit mad, but you can refine what you think about, and you can focus. Keep doing that until everything emanates from Now.
Everyone who is realised either realises a) it can never be communicated or b) there are infinite ways to communicate it and none of them are the right one. hehe
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Are you enlightened? [Re: circastes] 1
#13761773 - 01/10/11 03:00 AM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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Breathing is a kind of thought?
It' might be easier to decipher what you are trying to say if you didn't say things like this.
As it is it's hard to take you seriously.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head


Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
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Re: Are you enlightened? [Re: Icelander] 1
#13761875 - 01/10/11 04:03 AM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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Well it is when you shove your breathing!
I was kind of getting at the fact that 'thought' is a really loose term. (Also, I 'believe' everything is psychical, not physical.)
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Are you enlightened? [Re: circastes] 1
#13762357 - 01/10/11 09:12 AM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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I'm well aware of your subjective beliefs. If they work for you then great. It's up to each individual to find something that brings them relief. For each of us that may be very different. There are a lot of variables to human psychology.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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random_wanderer


Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 124
Loc:
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: Are you enlightened? [Re: jivJaN]
#13763125 - 01/10/11 12:10 PM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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Wow.
This is a very thought provoking post, many thanks xxx
Quote:
Quote:
random_wanderer said: "When a man is sound aslepp, free from dreams, and at perfect rest - that is the Self. The Self is immortal and fearless, and it is Brahman."
jifMaN said:
ok..
but why
Quote:
random_wanderer said: he felt the uselessness even of this knowledge. "In reality," thought he, "one does not know oneself as this or as that while asleep. One is not conscious, in fact of any existence at all. The state of one in deep sleep is next to annihilation. I can see no good in this knowledge either.
jivJaN said: why this ? and what makes the continuation of the text somehow more meaningful than this ? where do they touch upon this paradox ? i don't see it.
Well, Prajapati makes this statement because he is enlightened, he is the truth in all things and all things are the truth in him. The methods of reasoning or deduction that Indra goes through within the parable are an example of neti neti, not this not this, it is a process that within the Hindu culture helps people to move beyond the conceptual understanding, which defines the essence of Prajapati's existence.
One could analyze and form a critique about the logic and reasoning within the neti neti process, but that would be missing the point, after all, where can any logic or reasoning be used to define the mystical experience objectively.
Sometimes, if we look at something without its contextual entirety, the meaning can be completely lost.
Quote:
jivJaN said: the uselessness was felt because the seeker was still searching purpose in existence. where will this 'knowledge' take me next. what will i get out of it.
I don’t know, maybe.
Quote:
jivJaN said: you don't get anything out of it but i reckon it is this way. the true self.. the one self.. that which we claim to seek and that which we have named creator - does not exist.
Agreed.
Quote:
jivJaN said: forgive my megalomania for a second here and just consider that what i am about to say, in response to your well thought out and almost student like approach, to what you have called "realizing yourself" or becoming "enlightened", is something that might be looked upon and perhaps even dogmatized by people in our future exploring our interaction on the web and understandings of spirituality and consciousness.
What is the message you are responding to here? What is my student like approach that you speak of? “student” - I would not claim to be anything else.
Mad thought though aye, I wonder if in the future people will look to these forums and take them as gospel?
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jivJaN said: There is one thing that is certain. We live in a causal world. Cause and effect dominate all of movement , all of dynamic in all of existence. Consider each event being a single domino , participating in the chain of events. Ask yourself - what made the first domino fall ? I'm sure you have asked yourself this already. But do it again.
If we know for certain that we exist in a causal universe , then whatever it is that knocked over that first domino must not be confined by these rules of causality. It must not .. be a domino. Nothing must precede it. LITERALLY 
Ya, this is why I would (and often do) argue that the universe is not causal in the way that we traditionally assume it to be.
Cause and effect only exist within the parameters of time.
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jivJaN said: If creation is everything, the creator must be nothing. What else can it be ?
Beautiful reasoning! Therefore, is there a difference between the two? xxx
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jivJaN said: I am realized , despite how you want to see it. I know something most people don't. I know something your gurus don't. I know.. that it doesn't matter what you know.
there is no glorious quest. there is no return to being the true self. there is no plunging into nothingness and no nirvana for your happily ever after scenario.
This is our universe. The totality of existence belongs to itself. We have infinity to explore and that infinity is who we are.
I hope I did not imply that there was, but then, within infinity exists all possibilities ..aye.
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jivJaN said: What you seek.. is the core of it all. Our roots are not in the stars. They are in the pure unconscious nothingness. The continuously rebirthing infinite potential. are but riding a wave that has not yet came nor gone. Very simple yet we are reluctant to indulge this realization , because as i said already and as your text goes to show , we find this realization useless.
Icelander got there first in highlighting this, but a very profound statement indeed, kudos to you buddy.
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jivJaN said: The purpose has been taken away. The direction is but stripped. The car has lost its gps so where the fuck will it go ? We don't wanna go in circles do we ? WE want guidance GOD DAMMIT !!!
But how will you , a lie.. a mirage.. a mere probability among countless other probabilities IMAGINING to be of some importance , of some worth... how will that come to understand the very truth it runs from.
When will you ever forgive the devil for trying to destroy it all ?

You have captured my personal frustrations perfectly here.
Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is. --- Bhagavad Gita
If thou has not seen the devil, look at thine own self. --- Jalal-uddin Rumi.
This reminds me of how I need to forgive (or let go) of myself.
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jivJaN said: You need not spend 32 years to learn. What you learn will be what you have sought to hear. I say to you, go look into the mirror. Look at the reflection and tell me - can it and will it ever be able to see you ?
Tell me.. what would the reflection see.. if it looked into the mirror ?
Very profound truths there.
Who knows how long it will take, again, without the contextual entirety…
For me, the teachings within the parable reflect how complacent we can be with our learning, settling for the first answer that comes our way; but then also the importance of sincere perseverance in order for us to come to the Truth.
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jivJaN said:
forgive me. after all this has been said i still have NOTHING for you. perhaps a pretty flower ?

Cheers buddy.
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random_wanderer


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Re: Are you enlightened? [Re: Chronic7]
#13763162 - 01/10/11 12:18 PM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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The Chronic said:
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random_wanderer said: Both my "not realised" position and the "realised" positions are two sides of the same coin.
Self Realization is realizing what is already here all the time, the Self, which is total silence So the idea 'I have realized!' is not realization as it is not silence So in a way, as you say, realized/not realized are two sides of the same coin, but only as ideas
True realization is not either side of the coin, yet includes both It's not an idea, but it allows all ideas their existence
Its such a subtle thing to realize really, i just keep quiet as much as possible & stay aware of the Self The more i turn attention to the Self the more serene my state is, and there's an endless depth to that serenity The mental realizations/illuminations tend to unfold from that space, even without any desire to see anything

Good luck to you Chronic! Your spiritual diligence is a source of inspiration xxx
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random_wanderer


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Re: Are you enlightened? [Re: WScott]
#13763190 - 01/10/11 12:29 PM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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WScott said: How can I answer either Yes or No to this question?
Aye, well spotted buddy
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random_wanderer


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Re: Are you enlightened? [Re: deCypher]
#13763247 - 01/10/11 12:42 PM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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deCypher said: If I say I'm enlightened, how much will you pay me to become your Guru? 
Do you take pocket fluff?
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Icelander said: Hey buddy I was here first.
Now now boys...
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random_wanderer


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Re: Are you enlightened? [Re: Ginseng1]
#13763272 - 01/10/11 12:48 PM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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Ginseng1 said re The Chronic:
I feel just like OP does, and have been wrestling with similar thoughts and concepts, but this reply was most satisfactory! 
I second that and am glad to know i am not the only one who feels this way sometimes, many thanks xxx
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random_wanderer


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Re: Are you enlightened? [Re: circastes]
#13763402 - 01/10/11 01:10 PM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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circastes said: I would say we overrate the term 'enlightenment' and anyone who lives in a natural ecstasy, and experiences peace, is enlightened.
There would be no need for the term enlightenment if it wasn't for the state of our society. We're effectively brainwashed/conditioned out of happiness. I don't know if it's a mistake or not...
I like what you have said here. I think that sometimes it is a mistake and sometimes it isnt. The process of language is underpinned by the need to distinguish between subject and object, thought and form, we can hardly have a conversation or communicate understandings without it. That is where it is important to understand that words are just symbols of what they describe.
I consider spiritual faith to be the greatest enemy of elitist manipulation....but still, keep your friends close...
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circastes said: The Self, really, truly, is realised right now, just get on with things. You're waiting for the Self, but what you're really waiting for is for you to get on with things. I like the idea that the experience and the experiencer are one... makes it all a bit clearer when you're thinking.
I might be jumping ahead a bit but I think it's all about refining your thought pattern into simpler and simpler concepts and 'reminders' and pointers to the Self until such time as all that shines is the Self on its own, and the thoughts, at least the 'dreamy' reflective or knowledge-seeking thoughts, disappear. Not all thought disappears, I mean, you reading this takes thought, breathing is a kind of thought, so is any kind of movement. 'Stopping all thought' is a bit mad, but you can refine what you think about, and you can focus. Keep doing that until everything emanates from Now.
Everyone who is realised either realises a) it can never be communicated or b) there are infinite ways to communicate it and none of them are the right one. hehe
Aye, cheers for your thoughts mate xxx
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Kickle
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Re: Are you enlightened? [Re: jivJaN] 1
#13764589 - 01/10/11 05:11 PM (13 years, 20 days ago) |
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jivJaN said: forgive me. after all this has been said i still have NOTHING for you. perhaps a pretty flower ?

-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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