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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: question for circastes [Re: Kickle]
    #13674993 - 12/23/10 09:42 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I have accomplished many things with desires and I've failed many things with desires, but never have I been able to do so without being affected by them.




Sorry, should have said overly affected by them.  There's a clear difference (to me) between healthily entertaining desires such as wanting to eat at the new restaurant down the block and becoming neurotically attached to desires for more heroin in the case of the addict.

Quote:

Kickle said:
I mean, how far do you go before giving up? How do you know it's time to stop pursuing?




Great question; perhaps when our desires are beginning to negatively interfere with our life?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: question for circastes [Re: deCypher]
    #13675490 - 12/23/10 12:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You're right, this probably is just a semantic argument.
I still don't see any of this leading to the need for control.
And all of it leading to an absence of control being crucial.

If desires incur negative results, we abandon the desire.
Is control required for this? Do we control the result?

Do we control our reaction to negative stimulation?
Certainly we can attempt to. We can ignore consequences.
But our natural tendency, when we release our control, is to shy away from these things.

Likewise when we are rewarded, our tendency is to naturally continue.
No control required for this continuation is there?
And should things turn sour, what keeps us thinking it should be positive?
A desire to control the shifting tide?
To maintain positive reinforcement and try and ignore the negative?
Seems like without control/attachment the reinforcements can go where they please...
which they do anyways :shrug:

It's just that most people blind themselves to the negative aspects in order to keep pursuing until a positive is reached. Then it feels like it was all worthwhile, even if 90% of the time negative events were happening, the only thing that counts is the 10% reward. These %ages are made up, but if you look at positive illusions, this extreme imbalance seems to be the norm. It doesn't stop the negatives from occurring.

Personally I think that this leads to people who find some form of "success" but are very unhealthy and suffer in many ways. As the saying goes, people don't know what they want. Or maybe it's also because people don't trust nature. After all, our nature does kill us.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleCups
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Re: question for circastes [Re: deCypher]
    #13678830 - 12/24/10 09:50 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
I dunno, I feel like we're just arguing semantics here.  The emotional feeling of sorrow is distinct from the desire to change the past IMO.... I can intellectually realize that changing the past is impossible but this won't necessarily affect my feelings of loss.  :shrug:





Hate for this to be a trend...especially as I really like this thread and what we're talking about...but once again I have to disagree with you!

There is an ocean of difference between intellectually recognizing something and integrating that recognition into your life.

The best example of this is of course death.  We can all intellectually understand that we will inevitably die.  Even so, death anxiety has been the cause of more suffering than any other factor in human history IMO.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: question for circastes [Re: Cups]
    #13678841 - 12/24/10 09:56 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
There is an ocean of difference between intellectually recognizing something and integrating that recognition into your life.

The best example of this is of course death.  We can all intellectually understand that we will inevitably die.  Even so, death anxiety has been the cause of more suffering than any other factor in human history IMO.




Where have I disagreed with this?  :lol:


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InvisibleCups
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Re: question for circastes [Re: Cups]
    #13678847 - 12/24/10 09:58 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

intellectually realize that changing the past is impossible but this won't necessarily affect my feelings of loss.




Fundamentally no difference between this and death anxiety.

Different desire...same disconnect.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: question for circastes [Re: Cups]
    #13678849 - 12/24/10 09:58 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Sure.


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InvisibleCups
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Re: question for circastes [Re: Cups]
    #13678866 - 12/24/10 10:05 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

So, in that hypothetical situation if you had somehow come to an absolute understanding and acceptance of the fixed nature of the past... = No sorrow/remorse/sadness/regret etc for things you simply cannot change.

You might as well get mad at the sky for being blue all the time.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: question for circastes [Re: Cups]
    #13678876 - 12/24/10 10:07 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It just seems very unlikely to me that a human can TOTALLY escape feeling negative emotions... what I can see is someone who upon hearing of the death of his grandmother feels the natural reaction of grief/sadness/anger and then using his understanding that all things are impermanent and that the past cannot be changed is able to transmute these feelings into a satisfactory, quick catharsis; as opposed to lingering on them for years afterward.

Maybe I'm just overly pessimistic.  :shrug:


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InvisibleCups
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Re: question for circastes [Re: deCypher]
    #13678890 - 12/24/10 10:13 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I hear you dude. :thumbup:

All I can tell you is as far as I can tell I have the "past" part down.  My grandmother really did die recently and I really do love her...and the only negative emotions I had were beating myself up for not feeling "bad" enough.

As if somehow my lack of sadness meant I didn't love her "enough".  :strokebeard:

Dealing with future expectations is proving to be a much bigger stream to swim as it encompasses so much potential.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: question for circastes [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #13678936 - 12/24/10 10:27 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
It just seems very unlikely to me that a human can TOTALLY escape feeling negative emotions... what I can see is someone who upon hearing of the death of his grandmother feels the natural reaction of grief/sadness/anger and then using his understanding that all things are impermanent and that the past cannot be changed is able to transmute these feelings into a satisfactory, quick catharsis; as opposed to lingering on them for years afterward.

Maybe I'm just overly pessimistic.  :shrug:





There's a very poignant story from one of the Castaneda books where Don Juan is watching his son die from an accident while building the Pan American Hwy. 

He said he saw the beautiful body of his son lying on the ground crushed by boulders and felt a cry rising inside himself. At that moment he shifted his gaze from looking at his son to "seeing" the event and it all became equal with everything else.  He had shifted to "seeing" because he did not enjoy suffering.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleCups
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Re: question for circastes [Re: Cups]
    #13678970 - 12/24/10 10:39 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

@ kickle's various posts

I think you raise a good point when you say that desire is necessary to accomplish things.  I don't disagree with you at all here. 

Quote:

Something I've realized while thinking about this thread is that it isn't desire in and of itself that's the problem.  After all, as the Dalai Lama says "You must have desire for buddhahood."

Rather, it the fixation on changing the unchangeable which is the issue.




A huge problem I have with buddhism or any of the eastern religions really is that they tend to create zombie cultures.  Let's face it every majority buddhist country is a shit hole from many points of view.  The people may be happy to be oppressed by various regimes...but I'd still rather live here. :shrug:

Almost all of the major scientific and cultural advancements have come from the west.  Furthermore these monks and other "serious" practitioners hole up in monasteries and completely cut themselves off from the world to do what they do.

As many people have noted if the entire world did that the world would not work as we know it.

All that said....

The current reality we're living as you describe a few posts up from here obviously is not working either.  We've got a double digit percentage of the population on anti-anxieties/anti-depressants not to mention a huge number of drug addicts and alcoholics. 

I guess what I am rambling my way to is the idea that I am trying to find a middle path...from the middle path.  A "new" understanding which takes the best of impermanence and no self etc without discounting the best of western life along the way.

That's the plan anyway. :smile:


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InvisibleCups
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Re: question for circastes [Re: Cups]
    #13678988 - 12/24/10 10:44 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Willed introversion, in fact, is one of the classic implements of creative genius and be employed as a deliberate device. It drives the psychic energies into depth and activates the lost continent of unconscious infantile and archetypal images. The result, of course, may be a disintegration of consciousness more or less complete (neurosis, psychosis: the plight of spellbound Daphne); but on the other hand, if the personality is able to absorb and integrate the new forces, there will be experienced an almost super-human degree of self-consciousness and masterful control.





This has been my experience.  It wasn't something I set out looking for and I can promise you it is not for the feint of heart. 

It seems every time I make a new leap in understanding I get to go through it all over again...almost as if each round is asking more questions which when answered...kicks off a new round of questions.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: question for circastes [Re: Cups]
    #13682318 - 12/25/10 09:11 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Well the middle path is buddhism at it's best.:laugh:

Rather, it the fixation on changing the unchangeable which is the issue.

And this is the rest of the best imo.  This is what the best of modern psychology and buddhism set out to treat. Attachment and or Neurotic behaviors. It's the same thing and the whole problem behind unhappiness. Not being able to accept reality as it presents itself. Especially death/impermanence as you well know.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleCups
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Re: question for circastes [Re: Icelander]
    #13690677 - 12/27/10 12:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

yep yep yep.

:thumbup: :mushroom2: :heart: etc etc etc

:cool:


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