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Tony
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Integrating into the matrix to transcend it
#13655173 - 12/19/10 08:34 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Spirituality in its simplest is simpler than simple, yet even Buddha came up with an eightfold path to onness.
Just wondering what you guys think about this short article/ITP promo by K. Wilber:
http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j18/wilber.asp?page=1
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c0sm0nautt

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Re: Integrating into the matrix to transcend it [Re: Tony]
#13657031 - 12/19/10 04:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Great article.
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head


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Re: Integrating into the matrix to transcend it [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#13657259 - 12/19/10 05:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
We already have considerable scientific evidence that practices such as ITP can turn back the physiological aging process by over a decade and significantly reduce the incidence of heart disease, stroke, diabetes, and most degenerative diseases.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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retrospect
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Re: Integrating into the matrix to transcend it [Re: circastes]
#13658497 - 12/19/10 09:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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yeah nice
just like if you move your right hand, in the mirror you move your left...
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Cups
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Re: Integrating into the matrix to transcend it [Re: retrospect]
#13658623 - 12/19/10 10:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Seems to me that if it is as simple as waking up one day and realizing the Self then there's no need to write a "short" 50000 word article on it.
Then only people I've seen who like to use words more than buddhist/advaita etc people are government people.
A completely random sentence grab- Quote:
This tacit recognition seems to have a beginning in time, until it occurs, whereupon it becomes clear that it has always been completely obvious.
Just a little rant from Cups.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head


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Re: Integrating into the matrix to transcend it [Re: Cups]
#13659606 - 12/20/10 03:48 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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There's nothing to realise, you don't get a choice. You are That, the one thing. "You", as a person, a thing, something different from That, does not exist... it is merely a habit you have formed, to behave as if it does. Merely accept this and you will become It and forget your 'self', and live in ecstasy. To accept this, repeatedly ask, "To whom does _____ occur?"; who is it that cares about the body? Who is it that thinks there are contradictions in not existing as an ego? Who is it that's going to die? Whose legs are going to be blown off? Who is going to scream in pain?
And you find that there was never anyone there. The very thing worrying, is simply not there. So it's not that you finally get magical courage and stop worrying, it's that the very thing you were worrying on behalf of, was merely a wrong assumption. And so the worry and the worrier were one and the same. Stop worrying, and it all disappears.
And so what is left? It is left, completely impersonal, non-existent, consciousness. It doesn't die, it was never born, and the whole body and universe in fact, is this consciousness. This consciousness is all there is. The body and all 'matter' is an illusion.
There is, and never was, anything there, apart from It. You have nothing to worry about because it's not even you playing the game with yourself. Ultimately, it appears it's just wholehearted, infinite, benevolent love screwing with itself, because that's what you feel when you snap out of the 'little self' delusion.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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Tony
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Re: Integrating into the matrix to transcend it [Re: circastes]
#13659777 - 12/20/10 06:07 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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If the point is to transcend attachments, not only through realization but also physically/energetically, then it seems logical that you should also explore them a little. After you know what they are like, you can be more honest about your detachment to them, whereas when you're still a "virgin" it might seem like you're missing out on something.
Same thing with repulsions. If you find business and politics repulsive, explore them a litle, study them, take part in the fields, see what's so repulsive about them, how they apparently conflict with your apparent values, where the possible resentment comes from.
Personally I don't find a lot of attraction toward a broader societal integration, there's not a lot of interest in any specific activity, and although that may not be a cosmic problem (lol), there's no interest in sitting around all day either. So I just signed up for an art class, to get started..
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Icelander
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Re: Integrating into the matrix to transcend it [Re: Cups]
#13660166 - 12/20/10 09:57 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said: Seems to me that if it is as simple as waking up one day and realizing the Self then there's no need to write a "short" 50000 word article on it.
Then only people I've seen who like to use words more than buddhist/advaita etc people are government people.
A completely random sentence grab- Quote:
This tacit recognition seems to have a beginning in time, until it occurs, whereupon it becomes clear that it has always been completely obvious.
Just a little rant from Cups.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Tony
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Re: Integrating into the matrix to transcend it [Re: Icelander]
#13661035 - 12/20/10 02:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Their approach is to look at different practices/life styles scientifically to see if there are statistical correlations between them and a higher incidence of realization. If anything, this might at least appeal to the more "scientific-minded/intellectual" crowd and get them into spirituality. One of Wilber's missions is to integrate religion and science - keep what is good from both and dump the rest.
If my ayahuasca "glimpse of death" is anything at all like the real thing, then I can say that all this practice will do is give you a good laugh in the end, but still..why not laugh already and do it anyway? The point is also to progress/evolve as a larger consciousness and not disregard what has been accomplished thusfar, even if it feels like we're building a sand castle onto a sinking island, which IMO we are.
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
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Re: Integrating into the matrix to transcend it [Re: Tony]
#13661046 - 12/20/10 02:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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There is no better integration than inquiring - who is to integrate, into what?
ie stop giving yourself a job, and be free already 
I like the thread title though, its just about separation, if we have matrix & freedom, we can aim for freedom & leave the matrix, but there is still mental separation, not integration, very few can jump into the matrix & still be aware of freedom, those that can are really truly free
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Tony
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Re: Integrating into the matrix to transcend it [Re: Chronic7]
#13661435 - 12/20/10 03:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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But since it is very few who can see/come to see this way, is it not beneficial for the majority to identify with more and more instead of less and less, as this should ultimately lead to the same conclusion, and at the same time there would be a development upwards and less chance of regressing toward naivete?
What I'm trying to explain is the pre-trans fallacy. Fancy name for an intellectual theory, but pretty much every advaita teacher that I've listened to refers to it in one way or the other.
I've had so many nightmares about this: instead of going forward in life, I'm just becoming a drop out. I'm not sure if full realization would change my course in any way..
From the article:
Quote:
You can perfectly awaken to radical Spirit and pure Self, but that will not allow you to perform graceful athletics with your body; it will not allow you to understand quantum mechanics with your mind; it will not turn your personality from a nerd into a sophisticate; it will not get you a new job. One Taste simply bypasses all of those relative vehicles and leaves them much as it finds them. Those relative vehicles, in order to be improved, have to be engaged in their own terms.
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Integrating into the matrix to transcend it [Re: Tony]
#13664208 - 12/21/10 04:00 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tony said:
Quote:
You can perfectly awaken to radical Spirit and pure Self, but that will not allow you to perform graceful athletics with your body; it will not allow you to understand quantum mechanics with your mind; it will not turn your personality from a nerd into a sophisticate; it will not get you a new job. One Taste simply bypasses all of those relative vehicles and leaves them much as it finds them. Those relative vehicles, in order to be improved, have to be engaged in their own terms.
Ever hear of destiny? If you are destined to perform graceful athletics it will happen, if you are destined to study quantum mechanics it will happen etc... regardless of Self realization, if anything Self realization will stop you postponing these things. Spontanious action is extremely efficient. I didn't wake up & start considering my body a piece of impure dirt not worthy of my attention, i started looking after it, eating much healthier & exercising a lot.
You think if you consider realization the ultimate goal of life that you stop living life? Life unfolds spectacularly from this place of being
TBH all i hear is the minds 'but'
"You can perfectly awaken to radical Spirit and pure Self, but..."
That is a mighty 'but' right there
I feel if you throw your entire being on the shoulders of the infinite you can in no way lose anything, absolutely and relatively speaking.
but...
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head


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Re: Integrating into the matrix to transcend it [Re: Chronic7]
#13664243 - 12/21/10 04:39 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I certainly agree that life really begins with the return to your natural state, Nirvana. The intended state. Like I've said before I don't think the game was to hide from Itself, but to play with Itself, knowing Itself. A divine play, an attempt to see what can happen in an infinite mind. We were meant to be, and obviously still are, gods. We run the show. Knowing that it is all merely oneself in a dream doesn't end anything, it merely - MERELY - begins true freedom. And it's not that everyone is a hallucination of your self, it's that it's YOU, AGAIN. I AM YOU, AGAIN! Everything you have within yourself is within me too. The idea of everyone being a hallucination of you is a kind of duality, in that you are aware of it, and you contrast your awareness with the fact of the matter. That's wrong. There is only the awareness, there is no fact to the matter. I'm you, and when I'm with you, you're with yourself, and when I'm walking away, I'm walking away with a piece of you. Hard to explain but there is no problem here. This is no divine narcissism!
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Integrating into the matrix to transcend it [Re: circastes]
#13664285 - 12/21/10 05:26 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Icelander
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Re: Integrating into the matrix to transcend it [Re: circastes]
#13664291 - 12/21/10 05:31 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I certainly agree that life really begins with the return to your natural state, Nirvana. The intended state.
If it was intended then we would all be there. According to Freud this state is an infantile state that we crave a return to later in life. The pleasure principle vs the reality principle.
Cept imo you can never really return to that state as did Freud and many others. That's why there is so much talk about Nirvana and so little of it in daily life. But still there's nothing wrong in the attempt as I do agree there is no better state for a human to be in.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Tony
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Re: Integrating into the matrix to transcend it [Re: Chronic7]
#13664307 - 12/21/10 05:50 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah the mind is butting in a lot. I didn't want to give the impression that inquiry is out of the question. Inquiry can be one aspect of integral transformative practice, and I do know how geeky that sounds..
Quote:
The Chronic said: You think if you consider realization the ultimate goal of life that you stop living life? Life unfolds spectacularly from this place of being
There's probably some fear there. I've heard Wilber once say that motivation is kinda hard to find after realization. Then when I did ayahuasca I saw everything as "cyclical"(definitely not the best way to describe it), and it was as though every excited ideology was ridiculed in that seeing to the point that nothing seemed meaningful, and all I could say was "it's a nightmare"
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Chronic7
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Re: Integrating into the matrix to transcend it [Re: Tony]
#13664332 - 12/21/10 06:08 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tony said: Yeah the mind is butting in a lot. I didn't want to give the impression that inquiry is out of the question. Inquiry can be one aspect of integral transformative practice, and I do know how geeky that sounds..
I forgive you, you have been reading Wilber 
My favorite Wilber quote is 'Ramana Maharshi was the greatest sage of the 20th century' 
Inquiry is most integral as it finds out 'who is to integrate? into what?' not a cynical question at all, just to bring about total integration. Wilber knows this, i think he just likes to make sure his message isn't akin to 'remember the Self, forget the world' which lots of non duality teachers have said, even Ramana said it. Nowadays people are much more picky over language, im sure you've met the 'advaita police' somewhere on the net, swiftly there to correct any terminology or 'dangerous' teachings being espoused 
Quote:
Quote:
The Chronic said: You think if you consider realization the ultimate goal of life that you stop living life? Life unfolds spectacularly from this place of being
There's probably some fear there. I've heard Wilber once say that motivation is kinda hard to find after realization.
In some ways, in my experience motivation for certain things may go, but motivation for other experiences will come, interest is always a very fickle force in the human mind, right now i have a fair amount of interest in growing DMT crystals, some interest is there for my job, im interested in having a nice christmas of indulgence and interested in finding a nice girlfriend to cuddle up to.
One thing i can be 100% sure of is all these interests in these things will leave me at some point, apart from one interest, interest in the absolute truth of who i am/what life really is, the only way that interest can go is when this body goes, but even though its a big interest it doesn't exclude any other interest at all, its totally integral, the Self is the all 
Its strange how you can see everything as one being, meet another being apparently separate from you, but its still included within that one being, and theres no need to get rid of the feeling of 2 separate beings, its totally included in you already. Its all in the eyes.
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Cups
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Re: Integrating into the matrix to transcend it [Re: Icelander]
#13664366 - 12/21/10 06:34 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: If it was intended then we would all be there. According to Freud this state is an infantile state that we crave a return to later in life. The pleasure principle vs the reality principle.
Cept imo you can never really return to that state as did Freud and many others. That's why there is so much talk about Nirvana and so little of it in daily life. But still there's nothing wrong in the attempt as I do agree there is no better state for a human to be in.
Matthew 18:3 And he said: I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
I tell you what...if you take the concepts of Father and Heaven and things in Jesus' ministry and simple replace with something like awakening or nirvana...the guy knew what he was talking about.
@Chronic
Quote:
My favorite Wilber quote is 'Ramana Maharshi was the greatest sage of the 20th century' 
You don't agree? Or you being sarcastic? I know you love Maharshi...
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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