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shLong



Registered: 03/04/10
Posts: 25,330
Loc: 'sconsin
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Woodchip purpose in sawdust substrate...
#13562565 - 11/30/10 11:57 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Edit
Edited by shLong (01/09/12 08:45 AM)
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MonkeyKnifeFight
Stranger


Registered: 06/08/10
Posts: 772
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Re: Woodchip purpose in sawdust substrate... [Re: shLong]
#13564097 - 11/30/10 05:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Wood chips aren't for aeration as far as i know. In fact the normal problem with chunks in your substrate is that you get gaps that the mycelium has to jump across which isn't good. You do want things loose (not packed down) but packed down enough for there to be no gaps. I read in Stamets I think that wood chips give the mycelium a more solid base to grow off. I've never used woodchips in my sawdust bags though so can't really say.
You definitely don't want to poke holes in your filter bags. The whole point is that the filter allows enough FAE to keep your mycelium going while keeping things sterile(ish). If you poke holes in the bag and are using sterile enriched sawdust you will jut grow lots of nasty mold.
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flugelizor
Furious ball of nothing


Registered: 11/16/08
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Loc: Western NY
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My understanding is chips are "food for later". What I have heard is sawdust gives fewer (or only one) large flush. Wood chips give more smaller flushes.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Woodchip purpose in sawdust substrate... [Re: flugelizor]
#13564657 - 11/30/10 07:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
flugelizor said: My understanding is chips are "food for later". What I have heard is sawdust gives fewer (or only one) large flush. Wood chips give more smaller flushes.
This is correct. For my shiitake, I have learned to go for one huge flush using sawdust only and then discard the block outdoors to fruit again during the warm months. They then become mulch and fertilizer for the garden area. Deer and my cows also eat the spent substrate blocks. Each situation is different. In my case, it's more efficient to go for one big flush and then free up that real estate for the next sawdust block.
I'd bring those small chips home with you though to start outdoor beds. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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shLong



Registered: 03/04/10
Posts: 25,330
Loc: 'sconsin
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Re: Woodchip purpose in sawdust substrate... [Re: RogerRabbit]
#13566670 - 12/01/10 06:49 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thanks fellas. In regards to the poking of holes in the bags...Thats exactly what I was thinking, but there's so many contradicting teks out there. I know that there are 10,000 ways to grow each mushroom, but geez, lol. Real estate isnt much of a problem here...I havent grown anything in over 6 months, so I have some free space. Not as much as I'd like (Winter in WI) but enough to get 4-6 bags going after I do some G2G.
Thanks again!
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MonkeyKnifeFight
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Re: Woodchip purpose in sawdust substrate... [Re: shLong]
#13567239 - 12/01/10 10:19 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've never seen anyone recommend poking holes in filter patch bags. When it comes to sawdust bags there aren't really too many different methods. People may use slightly different mixes for their substrate but otherwise everything is the same.
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shLong



Registered: 03/04/10
Posts: 25,330
Loc: 'sconsin
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Quote:
MonkeyKnifeFight said: I've never seen anyone recommend poking holes in filter patch bags. When it comes to sawdust bags there aren't really too many different methods. People may use slightly different mixes for their substrate but otherwise everything is the same.
Thanks, bro...Well, Ive actually read that a few places and maybe just got some shit mixed up in my head, but here's an article (on the Shroomery) that sort of mentions it.. I GROW MUSHROOMS
"[Photo 10] This photo shows half of my grow room planted with 10 straw logs. Remember all that spawn? It's now in those logs.
[Photo 11] Next, holes have to be punched in the plastic. To do this I use a board with several sharp arrowheads attached. The arrowheads cut a "+" shaped mark in the plastic, this lets the mycelium breath and provides a place for the mushrooms to form.
[Photo 12] I turn off the ventilating system, set the thermostat to 70° F, turn off the lights and kick back for a while. The mycelium is now hard at work growing throughout the straw."
I tend to over-read into stuff, and thats probably the case here. This is my 1st bag tek, so, you know, I wanna do it right. They're probably not using patch bags is what im thinking. Ive done about 8 grows now, 1 every year since I was like 19. Agaricus and mostly P.C's...I love the science and the experience, but not so much the paranoia that goes along with Cubes.
Once I feel ok with the simpler end of Oysters, im sure I'll get a little more bold about it, but I know the 1st lesson I learned is "FOLLOW YOUR TEK"...so thats what Im trying to do here. Thanks again, Friend....
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Not Quite Social


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
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Re: Woodchip purpose in sawdust substrate... [Re: shLong]
#13567801 - 12/01/10 12:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Whoa!
RR said, "For my shiitake, I have learned to go for one huge flush using sawdust only and then discard the block outdoors to fruit again during the warm months."
That sentence upsets my thinking. You use "sawdust only", meaning no chips at all? So, your mushrooms out-compete contams on that highly nutritious medium, and your mushrooms don't mutate into super-freaky specimens? Please elaborate! I've always intended on "one fulsh and out", but I was also going to use the chips, sawdust, wheat bran formula. If I don't need to use the chips, then great--one less component I need to worry about!
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MonkeyKnifeFight
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Registered: 06/08/10
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Ah yeah shLong I think you're confusing two different methods. In the case of straw logs like you read about you are going to be using pasteurized substrate. Usually straight straw but I know some people mix in some other stuff. In this case you poke holes in the bags to allow air flow because the plastic tubing stuff isn't made for growing mushrooms and has no filter on it. And more importantly since it's pasteurized it has some ability to handle exposure to air. You can even spawn these bags in open air.
The other method is using autoclavable filter patch bags. In this case you would use an enriched sawdust mix (something like 10 parts sawdust, 2 parts bran, 1 part gypsum). Because the mix is so nutritionally dense with the bran you can't just pasteurize it so you sterilize it in a PC or whatever. At that point you need to keep the bag basically sterile until it completely colonizes or else nasty stuff will move in. This can be more of a pain because you have to spawn the bags in a glove box or something.
The straw logs tend to be used for all kinds of oysters while the sawdust blocks are often used for stuff like shiitake, hericium etc...
Hope that makes more sense.
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MonkeyKnifeFight
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said: That sentence upsets my thinking. You use "sawdust only", meaning no chips at all? So, your mushrooms out-compete contams on that highly nutritious medium, and your mushrooms don't mutate into super-freaky specimens? Please elaborate! I've always intended on "one fulsh and out", but I was also going to use the chips, sawdust, wheat bran formula. If I don't need to use the chips, then great--one less component I need to worry about!
What do wood chips have to do with the nutritional content of the mix? The nutritionally dense stuff is the bran or whatever other additive you use. So if your mix is 10-15% bran then it doesn't matter whether you use some woodchips or not from the over-supplementing perspective. I've never used woodchips and my bags do fine (though I'm not claiming it's better than using chips).
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Not Quite Social


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
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MKF, I guess you're right. I was thinking that the sawdust would be much more readily consumed by the myc and contaminants, not more nutritious, as I wrongly said.
This stuff is much newer to me than to you guys. I'm just now wrapping my head around the idea that chips aren't necessary.
Thanks!
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Edited by Not Quite Social (12/02/10 06:35 AM)
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shLong



Registered: 03/04/10
Posts: 25,330
Loc: 'sconsin
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This has been a helpful topic, thanks. Im still going to use the chips, seeing how they're soaked and ready to go...and I have thousands more. I hope coffee will be an ok substitute for the bran in this case. I have tons of that too. If not, I cant imagine the bran is more than $4-5 for the amount im going to need.
(btw, and sort of off topic, the MODERN MARVELS episode of MOLD & FUNGUS > ALL...watched it again last night on the DVR...Staments is quite the guy! )
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Chad1
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Registered: 12/02/10
Posts: 279
Loc: USA
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Re: Woodchip purpose in sawdust substrate... [Re: shLong]
#13591299 - 12/06/10 03:40 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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on the subject of wood chips and saw dust. I have access to a wood shop as well. The problem is they use ceder as well as other woods to make furniture. A bulk of the sawdust would be oak, walnut, and other hardwoods.
Would this still be acceptable to use as substrate?
Edit: right now they have a lot of pine saw dust. Would that work?
Edited by Chad1 (12/06/10 03:51 PM)
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flugelizor
Furious ball of nothing


Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 2,141
Loc: Western NY
Last seen: 1 hour, 35 minutes
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Re: Woodchip purpose in sawdust substrate... [Re: Chad1]
#13591603 - 12/06/10 04:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Different mushrooms like different substrates. Most don't like pine. (Conifer) Oysters can grow on pine. Some like it better than others. I'm sure one of the vendors would be pleased to point you to a strain that works well with the type of wood you use. Oak, is very good for most wood loving mushrooms. It's kind of the "standard" but not the only sawdust that works.
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Lakotis
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Registered: 08/11/10
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Re: Woodchip purpose in sawdust substrate... [Re: flugelizor]
#13593776 - 12/06/10 11:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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No don't substitute Coffee for Bran. Completely and I mean completely different things there.
Coffee is to supplement Nitrogen for the most part. you typically need very little if any of this. And when you use coffee, you use spent coffee grounds. Coffee can work, but should not be considered a substitute for grain flour/bran. (As far as I'm aware)
If you substitute Bran for anything it should be a grain. Use Rice/wheat flour, ground up Wild Bird Seed.
Take your time do it right. Not that mushroom would not grow on what you suggest.... Not Ideal. And would be subjecting your grow to disadvantages.
-------------------- "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." John Maynard Keynes
 
Edited by Lakotis (12/06/10 11:33 PM)
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shLong



Registered: 03/04/10
Posts: 25,330
Loc: 'sconsin
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Re: Woodchip purpose in sawdust substrate... [Re: Lakotis]
#13594587 - 12/07/10 06:21 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lakotis said: No don't substitute Coffee for Bran. Completely and I mean completely different things there.
Coffee is to supplement Nitrogen for the most part. you typically need very little if any of this. And when you use coffee, you use spent coffee grounds. Coffee can work, but should not be considered a substitute for grain flour/bran. (As far as I'm aware)
If you substitute Bran for anything it should be a grain. Use Rice/wheat flour, ground up Wild Bird Seed.
Take your time do it right. Not that mushroom would not grow on what you suggest.... Not Ideal. And would be subjecting your grow to disadvantages.
I actually made my bags up last night...with bran :-) I needed to wait for the filter bags to arrive so I decided to do some G2G (1 LB to 6 1QT jars (half to 2/3 full)...At the natural foods store (while buying the rye grain) I found 3 types of bran, and it only cost me something like $1.50. I bought the oat bran. The jars are just about fully colonized, so in a few days I'll be knocking my bags up. Thanks for the heads-up, bud!
Whats going to be better, opening the top of the bag, or letting it fruit through cuts I make later on?
p.s. I did mean to say -spent- coffee grounds earlier...
Edited by shLong (12/07/10 06:28 AM)
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MonkeyKnifeFight
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Registered: 06/08/10
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Re: Woodchip purpose in sawdust substrate... [Re: shLong]
#13595065 - 12/07/10 10:16 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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You're doing normal oysters (not king oysters?). For regular oysters you can cut some small slits in the bag and they will grow out of that nicely. Also makes them easy to harvest. Make the slits very small.
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shLong



Registered: 03/04/10
Posts: 25,330
Loc: 'sconsin
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Quote:
MonkeyKnifeFight said: You're doing normal oysters (not king oysters?). For regular oysters you can cut some small slits in the bag and they will grow out of that nicely. Also makes them easy to harvest. Make the slits very small.
Thanks for the tip...Yeah, Im doing normals. The Grey Dove variety (as they're marketed at least). They're a cold(er) loving strain, and since its December and my house will only be at or below 70 degress, thats my best option for success. So, the light wont make it pin all around the bag then? Im thinking its the localized FAE near the slits that make that possible? Thanks in advance for your help, everybody.
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MonkeyKnifeFight
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Registered: 06/08/10
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Re: Woodchip purpose in sawdust substrate... [Re: shLong]
#13596101 - 12/07/10 01:59 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well oysters may pin some against the bag just because they tend to be pretty aggressive. But it's no big deal. Those pins will basically just abort while the ones going out of the holes will go nuts.
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shLong



Registered: 03/04/10
Posts: 25,330
Loc: 'sconsin
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Awesome, you've been very helpful. Ill be dropping em in a few shotguns I have free. Im going to be building a mini greenhouse/martha in a few to hopefully give me more room to play around with (other strains/species). Im thinking if this works well to go on to Pink/Yellow Oysters and then hopefully some Hericium and/or Shitake (or both) You know how it is, with a new type of grow. You'll have your growing pains until you gain the confidence to expand and experiment on your own. Thank you gentlemen for pushing me in the right direction.
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