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Offlinekykeon
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Registered: 05/30/02
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The trial of "17 November"
    #1357102 - 03/08/03 12:36 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

For those who dont know, "17 November" is/was the name of the no.1 "terroristic" group in Greece ever. As i already had informed in here that they were caught in the summer of 2001, now we reached the time to face the justice.

With the new anti-terrorism law that was voted fucking quite recently (before the arrests though) they will be in trial against only career judges and not a common jury, coming from everyday people. Secondly, the cameras are not allowed inside the court room, so they have made a special room for the journalists where they can watch in a big screen whats happening. Only one journalist from each newspaper or whatever is allowed to enter the court room; the others are outside in the news room. Bollocks. So we are now watching in the news: photos, still images or drawings from the break, not the actual time of the trial. And then i go online and type this fucking message to all over the world and people can read my thoughts. Year: 2003 and we cant see the faces of those who are accused as terrorists.

And let me add that both those fucking facts that were voted by the politicians in the new anti-terrorism law are AGAINST OUR CONSTITUTION.

Bush, our savior


--------------------
The living ghost of Kykeon


Edited by kykeon (03/08/03 12:37 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: The trial of "17 November" [Re: kykeon]
    #1357386 - 03/08/03 06:05 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

And let me add that both those fucking facts that were voted by the politicians in the new anti-terrorism law are AGAINST OUR CONSTITUTION.



Our Constitution does not protect non-citizens.


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Offlinekykeon
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Re: The trial of "17 November" [Re: Anonymous]
    #1365793 - 03/11/03 11:44 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Our Constitution does not protect non-citizens.



indeed, constitution has become more like a rubber recently; everyone is pulling it towards its side...


--------------------
The living ghost of Kykeon


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The trial of "17 November" [Re: kykeon]
    #1366078 - 03/11/03 01:29 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

no, he means YOU ARE a foreigner and The United States Constitution doesn't cover those that live outside of its borders.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinekykeon
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Registered: 05/30/02
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Re: The trial of "17 November" [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1367101 - 03/11/03 08:00 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

lol

u know, we got a constitution in greece too... and its of our own :smile:

although it looks like constipation nowadayz rofl


--------------------
The living ghost of Kykeon


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: The trial of "17 November" [Re: kykeon]
    #1367497 - 03/12/03 12:30 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

We also had a terrorist group in Slovenia - before WW2. They planned a suicide attack on Mussolini but got caught and executed before they made it.
It's funny how things change in time. At that time they were the worst disgusting coward murderers, now ...


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Anonymous

Re: The trial of "17 November" [Re: kykeon]
    #1367923 - 03/12/03 05:28 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Let me get this straight. Either you are blaming Bush for violating YOUR constitution by trying these people illegally in YOUR country, or you are complaining that OUR Constitution is being violated in OUR country because we are trying people who are NOT protected by it.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: The trial of "17 November" [Re: Anonymous]
    #1368056 - 03/12/03 06:31 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Let me get this straight. Either you are blaming Bush for violating YOUR constitution by trying these people illegally in YOUR country, or you are complaining that OUR Constitution is being violated in OUR country because we are trying people who are NOT protected by it.



I am having trouble finding where the constitution says rights are only for citizens (other than the right to vote and be an elected Federal official). Here are some excerpts from the U.S. Constitution and several amendments which seem to apply. Notice, that the portions in question do not refer to 'citizen' or 'citizens' (except in the case of 'foreign...Citizens') but to 'people,' 'person,' 'persons,' or 'the accused.' Perhaps you would like to cite some portions of the Constitution or any amendments which support your position that rights only exists for citizens...


Article III.
Section. 2.


... The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;-- between a State and Citizens of another State;--between Citizens of different States;--between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.


Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.


Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment XIV
(1868)


Section 1. ...No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (03/12/03 06:35 AM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,734
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Re: The trial of "17 November" [Re: Evolving]
    #1368063 - 03/12/03 06:36 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

We the People of the United States , in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.



That's enough for me. As far as I'm concerned, if you're not a citizen, tough shit.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: The trial of "17 November" [Re: Evolving]
    #1368151 - 03/12/03 07:16 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

You are correct that the Constitution does not specifically say that non-citizens are not protected, which is why this is open for debate. However, there are many clauses in teh Constitution that imply it is for US citizens. The preamble is one, as luvdemshrooms has pointed out. Also, the section in the 14th Amendment that you highlighted, which reads, "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws," can be construed to mean that "any person" as written in the Constitution is equivilant to "citizens of the United States."

In addition, there is a common sense argument: why should the US government be forced to protect people whom pay no taxes and do not vote, whom are not citizens?

Finally, the Supreme Court ruled in Johnson vs. Eisentrager that non-citizen prisoners who had not been held on US soil, though they be prisoners of the US and convicted by US military courts, are NOT protected by our Constitution. With this case in mind, yesterday a federal appeals court ruled that Afghanistan prisoners held in Guantanamo Bay (an American military base in Cuba) are not protected by our Constitution. We will see if the Supreme Court will hear this case, and if so, what the ruling will be.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: The trial of "17 November" [Re: Anonymous]
    #1368551 - 03/12/03 09:42 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

the section in the 14th Amendment that you highlighted, ... can be construed to mean that "any person" as written in the Constitution is equivilant to "citizens of the United States."



Then why not use the term 'citizen' instead of 'person' ('citizen' is used explicitly in other places)? Why use the term 'accused' instead of a more narrow term or phrase which would signify only citizens?

Quote:

In addition, there is a common sense argument: why should the US government be forced to protect people whom pay no taxes and do not vote, whom are not citizens?



As long as people are within this country, they should be given all natural rights afforded by the constitution to protect them from an over-reaching and arbitrary government. What's to keep the government of stripping you of your citizenship then and treating you as a sub-human? Our government is travelling a slippery slope which will lead to the further takings of your rights as well. This will not be the end with just the Patriot Act I or II, this is only the beginning.

Quote:

Finally, the Supreme Court ruled in Johnson vs. Eisentrager that non-citizen prisoners who had not been held on US soil, though they be prisoners of the US and convicted by US military courts, are NOT protected by our Constitution.



This makes sense for prisoners of war with a foreign power, however when we have military tribunals for people living within our borders this goes contrary to the spirit and purpose of our constitution. In the U.S., civil power is to be over military. We are headed for a dictatorship, all the necessary elements are being put into place and tolerated by misguided people who 'mean well' but have little sense of history and the principles upon which this nation was founded.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (03/12/03 10:03 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: The trial of "17 November" [Re: Evolving]
    #1369085 - 03/12/03 12:32 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

As long as anyone with a real desire can enter and live within our borders, resident aliens are the same to me as non-resident aliens or plain old foreigners. Many Americans feel the same. Unfortunately, many Americans also don't know that the PATRIOT Act does not discriminate between citizens and non-citizens well enough.

If a resident alien gets deported "unjustly" while 10 other resident aliens with known terrorist ties get deported as well, it's a shame. But I'd rather have the good guy deported than the bad guys live here and learn about our infrastructure, gather intelligence and plan for an attack, than have them all protected by a country in which it is their privilage, not right, of living.


Edited by Anonymous (03/12/03 12:33 PM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1M
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Re: The trial of [Re: Anonymous]
    #1371668 - 03/13/03 07:20 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

The bad guys run the damn country...

P#1


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Offlinekykeon
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Registered: 05/30/02
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Re: The trial of "17 November" [Re: Anonymous]
    #1374280 - 03/14/03 01:23 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Let me get this straight. Either you are blaming Bush for violating YOUR constitution by trying these people illegally in YOUR country, or you are complaining that OUR Constitution is being violated in OUR country because we are trying people who are NOT protected by it.



Well i was referring to the GREEK constitution. It seems that whenever politicians like, they can vote a law that acts differently than the constitution. Thats my problem. :wink:

btw, i really enjoyed this discussion in here...


--------------------
The living ghost of Kykeon


Edited by kykeon (03/14/03 01:23 AM)


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: The trial of "17 November" [Re: kykeon]
    #1374326 - 03/14/03 02:12 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

lol This is the USA politics forum.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,734
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Re: The trial of "17 November" [Re: zeronio]
    #1374395 - 03/14/03 03:17 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

lol This is the USA politics forum.



Really? Just because many use it to bash the USA is no reason not to discuss politics fron any country.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: The trial of "17 November" [Re: kykeon]
    #1374457 - 03/14/03 03:52 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

u know, we got a constitution in greece too... and its of our own



i thought you were talking about ours...

FYI: in the future it could help to state WHICH constitution you're talking about...

i'll admit i don't know a lot about Greece and it would be nice to hear a little more.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinekykeon
Dead wishes

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 1,506
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Re: The trial of "17 November" [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1382035 - 03/16/03 08:02 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

FYI: in the future it could help to state WHICH constitution you're talking about...



okee :smile: my post was about the trial of "17 November"... the constitution that applies to them can only be greek :wink:

i insist that i liked the discussion though; many many interesting views on the "constitution" subject...


--------------------
The living ghost of Kykeon


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Anonymous

Re: The trial of "17 November" [Re: kykeon]
    #1382823 - 03/17/03 06:45 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

So if you were referring to your constitution, your country, why did you end the post with "Bush, our savior"?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: The trial of "17 November" [Re: Anonymous]
    #1383097 - 03/17/03 08:30 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Well isn't everything including the death of the dinosaurs the fault of Bush and the US? (at least to puny little minds)


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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