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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: On Pi and Devo's Latest CD [Re: Diploid]
#13562973 - 11/30/10 01:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Pseudo-random* and statistically evenly distributed. The digits 0 through 9 occur the same number of times. 
Infinite is not a number.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: On Pi and Devo's Latest CD [Re: Poid]
#13563030 - 11/30/10 01:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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*occur evenly distributed
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: On Pi and Devo's Latest CD [Re: Diploid]
#13563710 - 11/30/10 04:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I guess I'm misunderstanding your use of the word key, which to me reads as cryptographic key. I think what you mean is more like the word language or maybe protocol or standard.
Yea, I basically meant all of those things. Everything that is in between the raw data and the meaningful data.
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector


Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Re: On Pi and Devo's Latest CD [Re: Diploid]
#13565600 - 11/30/10 10:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: A deep question in number theory is: if Pi is infinitely long, then does it contain EVERY finite sequence?
Mathematicians have not yet found the answer, but most believe that Pi does indeed contain EVERY finite sequence.
If this is so, it has some deep philosophical implications. For one thing, it means that somewhere in Pi is the exact digital representation of Devo's latest CD. Indeed, EVERY CD ever made, including the ones you've burned in your computer.
It means that somewhere in Pi is a perfect digital photo of you making out with Nastassja Kinski and another of you making out with Arnold Schwarzenegger. 
It also contains every child pornography .JPG ever made and every word ever spoken and a detailed map of Chicago and the blueprints for the World Trade Center.
It contains the secret recipe to my grandmother's cookies, and the repair manual for my car. It contains an exact copy of Windows XP, and 7, and the one that hasn't been written yet.
It contains all of Shakespeare's works, the entire Shroomery database, the entire internet, and an exact copy of your DNA.
Weird eh? If there is a creator, he has a sense of humor. 
Pretty cool.
There's a scene from the movie Proof where a band "plays" a song called Pi. The drummer counts down and then the musicians all just stand there for 3 minutes.
I didn't get it.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: On Pi and Devo's Latest CD [Re: DieCommie]
#13565686 - 11/30/10 10:56 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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DieCommie said:
Quote:
Diploid said: The key is just as important as the code.
Well, again, if every finite sequence is there, then the key doesn't matter. Every finite sequence encoded by every finite key would also be there. Shakespeare in ASCII coding and EBCDIC coding and ANSI coding too, for example. Also Shakespeare encrypted with every algorithm and every finite length key would be there.
The key does matter. I understand what you are saying, any arbitrary key would work - I agree. But you still need the key, and the key is not contained in the code. The code alone is not sufficient to reproduce anything. Ignoring the necessity of the key is ignoring half of the game. Consider: The sequence of integers also contains every possible work - you just need a slightly more complicated key. Code '1' to be Devo's latest CD. Code '2' to be my latest CD. ... Code '34564' to be the first child porn photo. ... Code '234533' to be the exact condition every atom in my body is. With a complicated enough key we can code all the things you mention into just about anything.
Now we as humans trying to use codes and keys practically would never choose a key that is more complicated than the code. But philosophically there is no reason to prefer a complex code and simple key over a simple code and complex key.
I think a good example here is the one-time pad crypotographic system that is unbreakable. Trouble is, the key to the ciphertext must be as long as the plain text. Basically, it's unbreakable because if you securely implement it, the cipher text could be deciphered to any equal length string of charecters- with no preference amongst these (providing randomness is maintained in the ciphertext and key).
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I brought up DNA in my first post because that is the subject I am used to making this argument with. DNA is touted as the code for humans, and life. It is said to contain all the information that allows my body to grow itself - Bzzz! Incorrect. The DNA alone is not sufficient to make a person. You need to decode it, you need a key. That key is our bio chemistry and the molecules that read and synthesize. They contain vitally necessary information to create a human. The DNA alone is not sufficient, its only half of the story. Similarly, when coding data for other things the code alone is only half of the story - the other half is the key.
But, the DNA contains all the information that is needed to decode the DNA.
Barring epigenetic elements, which don't seem to be what you're referring to here, the DNA actually does encode for those things like the RNA polymerases that transcribe it.
Sure, there is need for a cell first to do so, but that cell is described in the DNA. (again, excluding epigenetic elements; stuff in the ovum/parent cell like mitochondria with their own genetics)
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector


Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Re: On Pi and Devo's Latest CD [Re: johnm214]
#13565757 - 11/30/10 11:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: On Pi and Devo's Latest CD [Re: johnm214]
#13566025 - 12/01/10 12:35 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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.
Edited by DieCommie (11/13/16 10:08 AM)
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 2 months, 1 day
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: For deep philosophical implications, you must go to marker # 135,998,013,224,518,101.
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: On Pi and Devo's Latest CD [Re: DieCommie]
#13566336 - 12/01/10 02:35 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
No, Im not referring to epigenetics. Ill have to think about this for a bit, but I believe I would reconcile my statement with yours by appealing to the cell as you have. Now you say it contains the code for producing the cell as well, and so does the sequence of pi also contain code to reproduce itself.
Sure, but there's no way to find it and use it unless you allready know what it is (useless) or you just test everything (tedious). DNA, on the other hand, contains indicators of what should be transcribed and regulators that allow control over the rate with respect to many variables.
I suppose this is the 'key' you mention that allows the creation of useful discrete products from a message which could have infinite meanings in the abstract. This 'key', I'd argue, wouldn't so much be the components of the cell but simply the way the system interacts, how it works.
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The equation posted by deCypher is encoded in the sequence of pi. So instead of saying that every work is contained in the infinite sequence of pi, you could claim that every work is contained in the finite sequence that encodes the equation to generate pi. But to decode the equation you need a more complicated 'key', you need the all the mathematical structure to decode it.
agreed
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In this case, you have simplified your code at the expense of making your key more complex. Im no expert in information theory or cryptography by any means, but I do believe there is a give and take between the complexity of your code and the complexity of your key - each is equally important and neither can be done away with completely.
I would imagine this is correct.
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Another example I ponder is fractals and the equation that generates them. Fractals are often said to have infinite complexity, but all that complexity can be generated by a simple equation (just like pi). And that equation is clearly not infinitely complex. So there is an apparent problem here. The mandelbrot set that is generated from a simple equation contains vast amounts of information, and yet all that information is contained in a simple formula. The difference is that the mandelbrot set once generated has taken in information from the code (the equation) as well as the key (the mathematical structures, etc.). The final 'message' is necessarily the product of both the code and the key (whether or not it also contains code and key within it).
Sure, I can agree with that. It might be the only fractal-related posting in this forum that I can agree with, actually, lol
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Re: On Pi and Devo's Latest CD [Re: johnm214]
#13566690 - 12/01/10 07:00 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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