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OfflineKamek
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Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it.
    #13556229 - 11/29/10 09:56 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

So this piece of land is mine because I bought it. But when you think about it that doesn't make any sense.

What gives anyone the right to say that a certain piece of land is theirs when it was there long before they were born and will be there long after you die.

The majority agrees that this system of land ownership is the best but I don't know. I'm convinced there is a better way to divide the land among the people. Generally the majority sucks and for a large part consists of idiots. I am no commie but I am wondering if there is no better way...

What do you think?


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InvisibleCaine
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Kamek]
    #13556241 - 11/29/10 09:59 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

That's what the native Americans thought.


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InvisibleOlympus Mons
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Kamek]
    #13556243 - 11/29/10 10:00 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

dont go against the majority, it's the way it is bc is makes sense DUH!


dont forget to vote. that changes everything.


but seriously, no one owns the land or the fat of it. I got a ticket for fishing without a license,  they were extra hard on me because i was from out of state. Which makes sense considering i had planned on catching every fish in that lake.


--------------------
I close my eyes and seize it
I clench my fists and beat it
I light my torch and burn it
I am the beast I worship....


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OfflineKamek
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Olympus Mons]
    #13556256 - 11/29/10 10:04 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Things aren't they way they are because they make sense. I don't know what planet you are from but if everything made sense this would be an amazing place to live.


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InvisibleOlympus Mons
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Kamek]
    #13556259 - 11/29/10 10:05 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

i was joking. hence the "but seriously"


--------------------
I close my eyes and seize it
I clench my fists and beat it
I light my torch and burn it
I am the beast I worship....


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OfflineDosile Kouki
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Kamek]
    #13556274 - 11/29/10 10:09 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

You know it's interesting to note that even though someone is a particular 'land owner' of a particular property, they are really only holding it on lease from the government. You have the equitable claim over the land and the license to be on the land, and that passes to your next of kin all the way down the line, but ultimately the title is retained with the government. This is a matter of technicality really because the government will never seize ur land or anything,but it's just a fact of property law that the government owns all land and licenses it to land owners who have an equitable claim over the land for the time being.



It's not really possibly to change the land ownership scheme this far into it anyway, even if they did make the land free for everyone, or divide it up so everyone has a hosue, its injustice against the poeple who own the land and it will really mess the whole nation up unfortunately, its not realistic.


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Offlinecaradoc
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Kamek]
    #13556286 - 11/29/10 10:14 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Well, plus in cities we have half the buildings that are unused in the daytime (houses) and the other half that are empty and unused at night (offices), while we have people sleeping on the streets. Not to mention Johnny Speculator who buys 15 condo units as an 'investment' but just intends to sell them when the price goes up, while they sit empty.

On the other hand, if rural folk didn't own land, agricorps would and that would suck-- as it is they're growing exponentially, leaving depleted monoculture in their wake.

Its the economic system itself that is the problem.


--------------------
1) I can't imagine how P could possibly be false
2) Therefore P


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Kamek]
    #13556290 - 11/29/10 10:15 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kamek said:
So this piece of land is mine because I bought it. But when you think about it that doesn't make any sense.

What gives anyone the right to say that a certain piece of land is theirs when it was there long before they were born and will be there long after you die.




Why, society says so.



Quote:

The majority agrees that this system of land ownership is the best but I don't know. I'm convinced there is a better way to divide the land among the people. Generally the majority sucks and for a large part consists of idiots. I am no commie but I am wondering if there is no better way...

What do you think?




I think you're funny.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleMckennaManiac420
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Kamek]
    #13556380 - 11/29/10 10:39 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

You should check out some John Locke, specifically his second treatsie of government and his section 'of property'.

The gist is that Locke see's an individuals labour and the act of labouring as the mechanisms that create property. He then sets up a bunch of conditions that limit the extents of property and then states that government has to come about to protect said property. (This is very bare bones and does not do Locke justice)

Highly influential and highly controversial and well worth a read.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/locke/#SecTreGov


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:septemberlol:


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Offlineblujay
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Caine]
    #13556555 - 11/29/10 11:37 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Caine said:
That's what the native Americans thought.



They were nomads, fool.

If I build a fucking castle (house) the dirt it's sitting on and a small surrounding plot are mine. I will be here for generations to come- in the form of my children and theirs, so land ownership makes plenty of sense when you're talking about investing all your efforts into carving a niche to live in.


--------------------

wat man rly


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Offlineblujay
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Olympus Mons]
    #13556563 - 11/29/10 11:40 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Olympus Mons said:
dont go against the majority, it's the way it is bc is makes sense DUH!


dont forget to vote. that changes everything.


but seriously, no one owns the land or the fat of it. I got a ticket for fishing without a license,  they were extra hard on me because i was from out of state. Which makes sense considering i had planned on catching every fish in that lake.




If we all fish without any regulation, there will not be any fish. It's what's happening every day, and eventually we're gonna regret it when all our fish must be farmed. On the bright side, those fish will not bioaccumulate the poison we're putting into the water, so at least you wont need to worry about that while you eat your rubbery tank trouts.

get some fucking perspective on the impact this many Japanese people can have on one planet!


--------------------

wat man rly


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InvisibleMckennaManiac420
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Olympus Mons] * 1
    #13556591 - 11/29/10 11:53 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

The balance of licensing fees for hunting and fishing go to support and protect the fauna and their habitat.

Please reconsider your current approach and purchase the necessary licenses next time you are enjoying outdoor activities.


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OfflineKamek
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: blujay]
    #13556646 - 11/29/10 12:07 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

blujay said:
Quote:

Caine said:
That's what the native Americans thought.



They were nomads, fool.

If I build a fucking castle (house) the dirt it's sitting on and a small surrounding plot are mine. I will be here for generations to come- in the form of my children and theirs, so land ownership makes plenty of sense when you're talking about investing all your efforts into carving a niche to live in.




I agree. But there is a difference between carving a niche for yourself and your family to live comfortable lives and owning half the country to grow stuff.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Kamek]
    #13556975 - 11/29/10 01:31 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kamek said:
What gives anyone the right to say that a certain piece of land is theirs when it was there long before they were born and will be there long after you die.




The way I see it, it's mine if I can prevent other people from taking it from me.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineNunbuh_Chrubble
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: deCypher]
    #13557156 - 11/29/10 02:28 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_is_theft

Quote:



If I were asked to answer the following question: What is slavery? and I should answer in one word, It is murder!, my meaning would be understood at once. No extended argument would be required . . . Why, then, to this other question: What is property? may I not likewise answer, It is robbery!, without the certainty of being misunderstood; the second proposition being no other than a transformation of the first?

    —Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, What is Property?





--------------------


"This day is a lover..."

~Rumi


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Kamek]
    #13557175 - 11/29/10 02:34 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kamek said:
So this piece of land is mine because I bought it. But when you think about it that doesn't make any sense.

What gives anyone the right to say that a certain piece of land is theirs when it was there long before they were born and will be there long after you die.
What do you think?




what makes the land mine, the fact that I paid for it and yes, the land
will be here long after I die and when that time comes the land will
belong to my kids and they can pass it down to theirs or sell it, wont
make much difference once I'm dead


what makes you think that you can own a car, the materials were here
long before you and will be here long after you're gone


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Offlinecdnshroom
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: deCypher]
    #13557705 - 11/29/10 04:52 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

All the land is owned by the government of the country in which it is located. A person only buys land as a fee for them to not take it back. So yes OP, what u stated, is how it really is.


--------------------
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world"
I'm a full-fledged music junkie......rehab is not an option.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: cdnshroom]
    #13557751 - 11/29/10 05:03 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

cdnshroom said:
All the land is owned by the government of the country in which it is located. A person only buys land as a fee for them to not take it back. So yes OP, what u stated, is how it really is.





bullshit


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Offlinedestructo_low
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Kamek]
    #13558115 - 11/29/10 06:19 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

I can see having to buy the land and pay taxes on it, but it's bullshit that you have to pay yearly taxes. You don't pay yearly sales tax on all the other shit you buy.


--------------------
There is a molecule for every purpose. There are only actions and reactions. Cut out the middle men. Everything I say is a lie.


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Offlinecdnshroom
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13558122 - 11/29/10 06:20 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

cdnshroom said:
All the land is owned by the government of the country in which it is located. A person only buys land as a fee for them to not take it back. So yes OP, what u stated, is how it really is.





bullshit




I was very high when I wrote that, my opinion is different now...


--------------------
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world"
I'm a full-fledged music junkie......rehab is not an option.


Edited by cdnshroom (11/29/10 06:23 PM)


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Offlineigwna
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Kamek]
    #13558142 - 11/29/10 06:24 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

humans are territorial creatures. this area is mine, cause i am here. you come on my place where i dont want ya, i kill ya.

except now adays there just too mcuh people


--------------------
I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: destructo_low]
    #13558207 - 11/29/10 06:36 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

destructo_low said:
I can see having to buy the land and pay taxes on it, but it's bullshit that you have to pay yearly taxes. You don't pay yearly sales tax on all the other shit you buy.




What an amazingly foolish statement.

You pay property taxes every year because:

1. Every year those in your town need fire/police/rescue services. Do they only get paid once and then work for free?
2. The roads in your town need work every year. Or were they only open for one year and then shut down?
3. There are kids in school every year, or do the teachers work out of the goodness in their hearts?
4. The water/sewer department operates more than just one year.
5. I like having roads plowed when it snows, as it does every year.

I could carry on but perhaps you got the point.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineKamek
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #13558319 - 11/29/10 07:04 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Would be nice if there was no or virtually no government. And there were just a few people on this planet. Room enough for everybody to do whatever they fucking want. Noone to tell you what you can or cannot do and you can go and build your home wherever you like.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Kamek]
    #13558349 - 11/29/10 07:09 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kamek said:
Would be nice if there was no or virtually no government. And there were just a few people on this planet. Room enough for everybody to do whatever they fucking want. Noone to tell you what you can or cannot do and you can go and build your home wherever you like.





Except many of those who wish for such a thing would soon be enslaved by those who aren't very nice.

I'm always amazed by those who fool themselves into thinking such a system would work or is even a remotely good idea.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineKamek
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #13558374 - 11/29/10 07:14 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

I know it wouldn't work. Abolishing government will just create a vacuum in which someone will rise to power. That's why the best solution would be minimal government. "virtually no government" like I said.


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Offlinedestructo_low
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #13558391 - 11/29/10 07:16 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

destructo_low said:
I can see having to buy the land and pay taxes on it, but it's bullshit that you have to pay yearly taxes. You don't pay yearly sales tax on all the other shit you buy.




What an amazingly foolish statement.

You pay property taxes every year because:

1. Every year those in your town need fire/police/rescue services. Do they only get paid once and then work for free?
2. The roads in your town need work every year. Or were they only open for one year and then shut down?
3. There are kids in school every year, or do the teachers work out of the goodness in their hearts?
4. The water/sewer department operates more than just one year.
5. I like having roads plowed when it snows, as it does every year.

I could carry on but perhaps you got the point.




That's what I pay income tax for. There is no reason to double tax me on the land I live on.


--------------------
There is a molecule for every purpose. There are only actions and reactions. Cut out the middle men. Everything I say is a lie.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Kamek]
    #13558434 - 11/29/10 07:25 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kamek said:
That's why the best solution would be minimal government. "virtually no government" like I said.




Except that's not what you said.

You said:
Quote:

Would be nice if there was no or virtually no government.




--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineEnthrall
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #13558460 - 11/29/10 07:29 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

eh nevermind


--------------------


Edited by Enthrall (11/29/10 07:30 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: destructo_low]
    #13558491 - 11/29/10 07:34 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

destructo_low said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

destructo_low said:
I can see having to buy the land and pay taxes on it, but it's bullshit that you have to pay yearly taxes. You don't pay yearly sales tax on all the other shit you buy.




What an amazingly foolish statement.

You pay property taxes every year because:

1. Every year those in your town need fire/police/rescue services. Do they only get paid once and then work for free?
2. The roads in your town need work every year. Or were they only open for one year and then shut down?
3. There are kids in school every year, or do the teachers work out of the goodness in their hearts?
4. The water/sewer department operates more than just one year.
5. I like having roads plowed when it snows, as it does every year.

I could carry on but perhaps you got the point.




That's what I pay income tax for. There is no reason to double tax me on the land I live on.




1st - I seriously doubt you wind up paying any income taxes at all. The bottom 47% of Americans pay no federal taxes. Are you in the upper 53%? You may pay, but if you're not in the upper 53% you get it all back, and depending on whether you qualify for tax credits, you may get back more than you pay.

2nd - If you do indeed pay in after all is said and done, income taxes do not generally pay for the types of things I mentioned. Property taxes do.

You seem to have an adorably naive idea of how the tax system works and what the various taxes are used for.

You should educate yourself in how civic matters are handled in your area.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #13558513 - 11/29/10 07:38 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

If history has taught us anything, it's that anyone can think they own some land
But if you want it all you have to go there with bigger weapons and pwn them.
Then you can put up all your invisible lines and make different rules than the guys next door
And label anyone who thinks differently as a terrorist.. history fuck yeah :highfive:


--------------------


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Kamek]
    #13559963 - 11/29/10 11:37 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

There are so many intelligent responses in this thread, it makes me shed a tear of joy.  Here's what Mark Twain thought of land ownership:

Quote:

Archimedes

by "Twark Main"


"Give me whereon to stand", said Archimedes, "and I will move the earth." The boast was a pretty safe one, for he knew quite well that the standing place was wanting, and always would be wanting. But suppose he had moved the earth, what then? What benefit would it have been to anybody? The job would never have paid working expenses, let alone dividends, and so what was the use of talking about it? From what astronomers tell us, I should reckon that the earth moved quite fast enough already, and if there happened to be a few cranks who were dissatisfied with its rate of progress, as far as I am concerned, they might push it along for themselves; I would not move a finger or subscribe a penny piece to assist in anything of the kind.

Why such a fellow as Archimedes should be looked upon as a genius I never could understand; I never heard that he made a pile, or did anything else worth talking about. As for that last contract he took in hand, it was the worst bungle I ever knew; he undertook to keep the Romans out of Syracuse; he tried first one dodge and then another, but they got in after all, and when it came to fair fighting he was out of it altogether, a common soldier in a very business-like sort of way settling all his pretensions.

It is evident that he was an over-rated man. He was in the habit of making a lot of fuss about his screws and levers, but his knowledge of mechanics was in reality of a very limited character. I have never set up for a genius myself, but I know of a mechanical force more powerful than anything the vaunting engineer of Syracuse ever dreamed of. It is the force of land monopoly; it is a screw and lever all in one; it will screw the last penny out of a man's pocket, and bend everything on earth to its own despotic will. Give me the private ownership of all the land, and will I move the earth? No; but I will do more. I will undertake to make slaves of all the human beings on the face of it. Not chattel slaves exactly, but slaves nevertheless. What an idiot I would be to make chattel slaves of them. I would have to find them salts and senna when they were sick, and whip them to work when they were lazy.

No, it is not good enough. Under the system I propose the fools would imagine they were all free. I would get a maximum of results, and have no responsibility whatever. They would cultivate the soil; they would dive into the bowels of the earth for its hidden treasures; they would build cities and construct railways and telegraphs; their ships would navigate the ocean; they would work and work, and invent and contrive; their warehouses would be full, their markets glutted, and

the beauty of the whole concern would be
that everything they made would belong to me.

It would be this way, you see: As I owned all the land, they would of course, have to pay me rent. They could not reasonably expect me to allow them the use of the land for nothing. I am not a hard man, and in fixing the rent I would be very liberal with them. I would allow them, in fact, to fix it themselves. What could be fairer? Here is a piece of land, let us say, it might be a farm, it might be a building site, or it might be something else - if there was only one man who wanted it, of course he would not offer me much, but if the land be really worth anything such a circumstance is not likely to happen. On the contrary, there would be a number who would want it, and they would go on bidding and bidding one against the other, in order to get it. I should accept the highest offer - what could be fairer? Every increase of population, extension of trade, every advance in the arts and sciences would, as we all know, increase the value of land, and the competition that would naturally arise would continue to force rents upward, so much so, that in many cases the tenants would have little or nothing left for themselves.

In this case a number of those who were hard pushed would seek to borrow, and as for those who were not so hard pushed, they would, as a matter of course, get the idea into their heads that if they only had more capital they could extend their operations, and thereby make their business more profitable. Here I am again. The very man they stand in need of; a regular benefactor of my species, and always ready to oblige them. With such an enormous rent-roll I could furnish them with funds up to the full extent of the available security; they would not expect me to do more, and in the matter of interest I would be equally generous.

I would allow them to fix the rate of it themselves in precisely the same manner as they had fixed the rent. I should then have them by the wool, and if they failed in their payments it would be the easiest thing in the world to sell them out. They might bewail their lot, but business is business. They should have worked harder and been more provident. Whatever inconvenience they might suffer, it would be their concern, and not mine. What a glorious time I would have of it! Rent and interest, interest and rent, and no limit to either, excepting the ability of the workers to pay. Rents would go up and up, and they would continue to pledge and mortgage, and as they went bung, bung, one after another, it would be the finest sport ever seen. thus, from the simple leverage of land monopoly, not only the great globe itself, but everything on the face of it would eventually belong to me. I would be king and lord of all, and the rest of mankind would be my most willing slaves.

It hardly needs to be said that it would not be consistent with my dignity to associate with the common rank and file of humanity; it would not be politic to say so, but, as a matter of fact, I not only hate work but I hate those who do work, and I would not have their stinking carcasses near me at any price. High above the contemptible herd I would sit enthroned amid a circle of devoted worshippers. I would choose for myself companions after my own heart. I would deck them with ribbons and gewgaws to tickle their vanity; they would esteem it an honour to kiss my glove, and would pay homage to the very chair that I sat upon; brave men would die for me, parsons would pray for me, and bright-eyed beauty would pander to my pleasures. For the proper management of public affairs I would have a parliament, and for the preservation of law and order there would be soldiers and policemen, all sworn to serve me faithfully; their pay would not be much, but their high sense of duty would be a sufficient guarantee that they would fulfil the terms of the contract.

Outside the charmed circle of my society would be others eagerly pressing forward in the hope of sharing my favours; outside of these would be others again who would be forever seeking to wriggle themselves into the ranks of those in front of them, and so on, outward and downward, until we reach the deep ranks of the workers forever toiling and forever struggling merely to live, and with the hell of poverty forever threatening to engulf them. The hell of poverty, that outer realm of darkness where there is weeping and wading and gnashing of teeth - the social Gehenna, where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched - here is a whip more effective by far than the keenest lash of the chattel slave owner, urging them on by day, haunting their dreams by night, draining without stint the life blood from their veins, and pursuing them with relentless constancy to their graves. In the buoyancy of youth many would start full of hope and with high expectations; but, as they journeyed along, disappointment would follow disappointment, hope would gradually give place to despair, the promised cup of joy would be turned to bitterness, and the holiest affection would become a poisoned arrow quivering in the heart!

What a beautiful arrangement - ambition urging in front, want and the fear of want bringing up the rear! In the conflicting interests that would be involved, in the throat-cutting competition that would prevail, in the bitterness that would be engendered between man and man, husband and wife, father and son, I should, of course, have no part. There would be lying and cheating, harsh treatment by masters, dishonesty of servants, strikes and lockouts, assaults and intimidation, family feuds and interminable broils; but they would not concern Me. In the serene atmosphere of my earthly paradise I would be safe from all evil. I would feast on the daintiest of dishes, and sip wines of the choicest vintage; my gardens would have the most magnificent terraces and the finest walks. I would roam mid the umbrageous foliage of the trees, the blooming flowers, the warbling of birds, the jetting of fountains, and the splashing of pellucid waters. My palace would have its walls of alabaster and domes of crystal, there would be furniture of the most exquisite workmanship, carpets and hangings of the richest fabrics and finest textures, carvings and paintings that were miracles of art, vessels of gold and silver, gems of the purest ray glittering in their settings, the voluptuous strains of the sweetest music, the perfume of roses, the softest of couches, a horde of titled lackeys to come and go at my bidding, and a perfect galaxy of beauty to stimulate desire, and administer to my enjoyment. Thus would I pass the happy hours away, while throughout the world it would be a hallmark of respectability to extol my virtues, and anthems would be everywhere sung in praise.

Archimedes never dreamt of anything like that. Yet, with the earth for my fulcrum and its private ownership for my lever, it is all possible. If it should be said that the people would eventually detect the fraud, and with swift vengeance hurl me and all my courtly parasites to perdition, I answer, "Nothing of the kind, the people are as good as gold, and would stand it like bricks, and I appeal to the facts of today to bear me witness."





You should definitely check out another guy who had the same idea.


--------------------


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OfflineKamek
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Silversoul]
    #13561314 - 11/30/10 07:01 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
There are so many intelligent responses in this thread, it makes me shed a tear of joy.  Here's what Mark Twain thought of land ownership:

Quote:

Archimedes

by "Twark Main"


"Give me whereon to stand", said Archimedes, "and I will move the earth." The boast was a pretty safe one, for he knew quite well that the standing place was wanting, and always would be wanting. But suppose he had moved the earth, what then? What benefit would it have been to anybody? The job would never have paid working expenses, let alone dividends, and so what was the use of talking about it? From what astronomers tell us, I should reckon that the earth moved quite fast enough already, and if there happened to be a few cranks who were dissatisfied with its rate of progress, as far as I am concerned, they might push it along for themselves; I would not move a finger or subscribe a penny piece to assist in anything of the kind.

Why such a fellow as Archimedes should be looked upon as a genius I never could understand; I never heard that he made a pile, or did anything else worth talking about. As for that last contract he took in hand, it was the worst bungle I ever knew; he undertook to keep the Romans out of Syracuse; he tried first one dodge and then another, but they got in after all, and when it came to fair fighting he was out of it altogether, a common soldier in a very business-like sort of way settling all his pretensions.

It is evident that he was an over-rated man. He was in the habit of making a lot of fuss about his screws and levers, but his knowledge of mechanics was in reality of a very limited character. I have never set up for a genius myself, but I know of a mechanical force more powerful than anything the vaunting engineer of Syracuse ever dreamed of. It is the force of land monopoly; it is a screw and lever all in one; it will screw the last penny out of a man's pocket, and bend everything on earth to its own despotic will. Give me the private ownership of all the land, and will I move the earth? No; but I will do more. I will undertake to make slaves of all the human beings on the face of it. Not chattel slaves exactly, but slaves nevertheless. What an idiot I would be to make chattel slaves of them. I would have to find them salts and senna when they were sick, and whip them to work when they were lazy.

No, it is not good enough. Under the system I propose the fools would imagine they were all free. I would get a maximum of results, and have no responsibility whatever. They would cultivate the soil; they would dive into the bowels of the earth for its hidden treasures; they would build cities and construct railways and telegraphs; their ships would navigate the ocean; they would work and work, and invent and contrive; their warehouses would be full, their markets glutted, and

the beauty of the whole concern would be
that everything they made would belong to me.

It would be this way, you see: As I owned all the land, they would of course, have to pay me rent. They could not reasonably expect me to allow them the use of the land for nothing. I am not a hard man, and in fixing the rent I would be very liberal with them. I would allow them, in fact, to fix it themselves. What could be fairer? Here is a piece of land, let us say, it might be a farm, it might be a building site, or it might be something else - if there was only one man who wanted it, of course he would not offer me much, but if the land be really worth anything such a circumstance is not likely to happen. On the contrary, there would be a number who would want it, and they would go on bidding and bidding one against the other, in order to get it. I should accept the highest offer - what could be fairer? Every increase of population, extension of trade, every advance in the arts and sciences would, as we all know, increase the value of land, and the competition that would naturally arise would continue to force rents upward, so much so, that in many cases the tenants would have little or nothing left for themselves.

In this case a number of those who were hard pushed would seek to borrow, and as for those who were not so hard pushed, they would, as a matter of course, get the idea into their heads that if they only had more capital they could extend their operations, and thereby make their business more profitable. Here I am again. The very man they stand in need of; a regular benefactor of my species, and always ready to oblige them. With such an enormous rent-roll I could furnish them with funds up to the full extent of the available security; they would not expect me to do more, and in the matter of interest I would be equally generous.

I would allow them to fix the rate of it themselves in precisely the same manner as they had fixed the rent. I should then have them by the wool, and if they failed in their payments it would be the easiest thing in the world to sell them out. They might bewail their lot, but business is business. They should have worked harder and been more provident. Whatever inconvenience they might suffer, it would be their concern, and not mine. What a glorious time I would have of it! Rent and interest, interest and rent, and no limit to either, excepting the ability of the workers to pay. Rents would go up and up, and they would continue to pledge and mortgage, and as they went bung, bung, one after another, it would be the finest sport ever seen. thus, from the simple leverage of land monopoly, not only the great globe itself, but everything on the face of it would eventually belong to me. I would be king and lord of all, and the rest of mankind would be my most willing slaves.

It hardly needs to be said that it would not be consistent with my dignity to associate with the common rank and file of humanity; it would not be politic to say so, but, as a matter of fact, I not only hate work but I hate those who do work, and I would not have their stinking carcasses near me at any price. High above the contemptible herd I would sit enthroned amid a circle of devoted worshippers. I would choose for myself companions after my own heart. I would deck them with ribbons and gewgaws to tickle their vanity; they would esteem it an honour to kiss my glove, and would pay homage to the very chair that I sat upon; brave men would die for me, parsons would pray for me, and bright-eyed beauty would pander to my pleasures. For the proper management of public affairs I would have a parliament, and for the preservation of law and order there would be soldiers and policemen, all sworn to serve me faithfully; their pay would not be much, but their high sense of duty would be a sufficient guarantee that they would fulfil the terms of the contract.

Outside the charmed circle of my society would be others eagerly pressing forward in the hope of sharing my favours; outside of these would be others again who would be forever seeking to wriggle themselves into the ranks of those in front of them, and so on, outward and downward, until we reach the deep ranks of the workers forever toiling and forever struggling merely to live, and with the hell of poverty forever threatening to engulf them. The hell of poverty, that outer realm of darkness where there is weeping and wading and gnashing of teeth - the social Gehenna, where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched - here is a whip more effective by far than the keenest lash of the chattel slave owner, urging them on by day, haunting their dreams by night, draining without stint the life blood from their veins, and pursuing them with relentless constancy to their graves. In the buoyancy of youth many would start full of hope and with high expectations; but, as they journeyed along, disappointment would follow disappointment, hope would gradually give place to despair, the promised cup of joy would be turned to bitterness, and the holiest affection would become a poisoned arrow quivering in the heart!

What a beautiful arrangement - ambition urging in front, want and the fear of want bringing up the rear! In the conflicting interests that would be involved, in the throat-cutting competition that would prevail, in the bitterness that would be engendered between man and man, husband and wife, father and son, I should, of course, have no part. There would be lying and cheating, harsh treatment by masters, dishonesty of servants, strikes and lockouts, assaults and intimidation, family feuds and interminable broils; but they would not concern Me. In the serene atmosphere of my earthly paradise I would be safe from all evil. I would feast on the daintiest of dishes, and sip wines of the choicest vintage; my gardens would have the most magnificent terraces and the finest walks. I would roam mid the umbrageous foliage of the trees, the blooming flowers, the warbling of birds, the jetting of fountains, and the splashing of pellucid waters. My palace would have its walls of alabaster and domes of crystal, there would be furniture of the most exquisite workmanship, carpets and hangings of the richest fabrics and finest textures, carvings and paintings that were miracles of art, vessels of gold and silver, gems of the purest ray glittering in their settings, the voluptuous strains of the sweetest music, the perfume of roses, the softest of couches, a horde of titled lackeys to come and go at my bidding, and a perfect galaxy of beauty to stimulate desire, and administer to my enjoyment. Thus would I pass the happy hours away, while throughout the world it would be a hallmark of respectability to extol my virtues, and anthems would be everywhere sung in praise.

Archimedes never dreamt of anything like that. Yet, with the earth for my fulcrum and its private ownership for my lever, it is all possible. If it should be said that the people would eventually detect the fraud, and with swift vengeance hurl me and all my courtly parasites to perdition, I answer, "Nothing of the kind, the people are as good as gold, and would stand it like bricks, and I appeal to the facts of today to bear me witness."





You should definitely check out another guy who had the same idea.




Very interesting. I am definitely going to read some more Twain in the near future. Very interesting piece.

This would have been a way better post to start this thread of. +5!


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Silversoul]
    #13561462 - 11/30/10 08:56 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
You should definitely check out another guy who had the same idea.





interesting, he believes government should seize all land and deny
ownership to private citizens WITHOUT COMPENSATION but government
should then lease the land they've quite literally stolen back to the
private sector that they stole it from. I can certainly hope that if you
support this idea that you have exactly that happen to you, work hard,
save your money, acquire a home and then have government take it and
allow you to rent it from you that way when you've finished paying off
the house you can still keep paying for it until you die, that way
government can keep you as a slave to allow them live like kings

what happens when the people are dissatisfied with the fucking they're
getting and topple the government, what happens to the land, should the
people shoot each other and lay claim to everything they can?


didnt you mention that you had a mortgage now?


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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Kamek]
    #13561486 - 11/30/10 09:06 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kamek said:
Very interesting. I am definitely going to read some more Twain in the near future. Very interesting piece.





Mark Twain was a very interesting character, a legendary figure in the US
with a sharp wit, I've stumbled across nothing of his that I didnt find entertaining


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Re: Land ownership is kinda silly when you think about it. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13561542 - 11/30/10 09:30 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

In response to the bashing of the health care bill I've heard in this thread:

I'm 26.  Around the time I turned 26 I was no longer eligible to be covered by my parents insurance.  I also couldn't find any insurance company that would sell me a policy because of "preexisting conditions" - namely because I'd sought treatment for being addicted to painkillers five or six years ago.  There wasn't any option for me to keep the policy I was being covered under, and just start paying for it myself; I was being dropped because I got too old to be covered by the policy I had, and I couldn't get a new policy from any insurer because of the preexisting condition bullshit.  What the fuck?

I talked to the people at social security and the people at the state health dept. about what to do, and the only option for me was to buy COBRA and pay for that until it "runs out" at which point I would finally become eligible for some sort of state-sponsored policy.  I'm lucky that I can afford COBRA; I imagine most people would not be able to - it is INCREDIBLY expensive. 

Thanks to health reform, I am no longer facing such shitty options.  I find it hard to feel bad for the people who whine that they are paying 400 bucks instead of $350, when I've been paying ~ $1200 for close to a year now because I used to be entirely ineligible for anything else; COBRA was my only option in my state.  I'd love to pay only $400.  Thanks to health reform, I'll be eligible for that same $400 policy instead of having to deal with all the super-expensive BS and the extremely limited options I otherwise would have if health reform never came to pass.

If only for this reason, I'm a fan of health reform. 

I know - it sounds almost blasphemous doesn't it?  I didn't even call it "Obamacare" - that's such a giveaway that I'm a socialist!


--------------------


"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." - Carl Sagan


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