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OfflineSeussA
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IkiLeaks * 1
    #13556167 - 11/29/10 07:33 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I'm curious what people think about WikiLeaks after the latest round of disclosures.

1) Wikipedia co-founder Jimmy Wales said, "I would distance myself from WikiLeaks, I wish they wouldn't use the name, they are not a Wiki. A big way they got famous in the first place was by using the word Wiki, which was unfortunate in my view".

In respect of Wikipedia and Jimmy Wales, I will now use the name "IkiLeaks" rather than "WikiLeaks".  I would usually consider such name play to be childish, but in the case I feel that it is appropriate.

2) Others claim that IkiLeaks is a whistleblower site.  However, in their 'about us' page they never mention whistleblower.  Instead, they claim that under the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights" that "everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression".

I fail to see how releasing classified documents is somehow an opinion or an expression.  I suppose it could be argued as an expression against modern governments tendency towards national security, but that is a stretch.

I find it amusing how most news organizations label Ikileaks as a whistleblower site.  A whistleblower is "a person who raises a concern about alleged wrongdoing occurring in an organization or body of people".  Some of the early items published by Ikileaks did indeed fit this definition.  However, their latest escapades have nothing to do with raising concern over wrongdoing.

3) Will the latest round of documents released by IkiLeaks bite them in the ass?  Not only do the documents make the US look bad, but they make a whole lot of other countries look bad as well.  Many of the countries that look bad have less scruples than the US when it comes to retribution.  I have a feeling that Assanger is going to have a difficult time finding a comfortable and safe place to live any time soon.  How far will the various embarrassed countries go to silence the mouthpiece and founder of IkiLeaks.  If Assanger were to find his head detached from his body, so to speak, what would be the future of IkiLeaks?

Thoughts... opinions... ?

Mine are pretty simple... I had a lot of respect for IkiLeaks when they were a whistleblower site that protected people that were bringing wrongs, that were protected by national security, to the public.  As IkiLeaks has morphed from a whistleblower site and moved towards a irresponsible mouthpiece that simply publishes classified material to make a name for itself, I have lost all respect for what they do.  I'm sure others disagree with me and I am anxious to hear your viewpoints.


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InvisibleGerman Kahuna
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss] * 1
    #13556300 - 11/29/10 08:17 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I am pretty much in your boat. Diplomacy is hard enough as it were and everybody knows it is a dirty game. This isn't making things in international affairs easier, nor does it help anyone. It isn't whistleblowing, it's snitching to discredit the US. I am sure the diplomatic corpses of other nations don't use a finer tone when writing internal notes.
To me what they did is the same as if someone stole a company's internal employee files and put them up on the bulletin board of the company cafeteria for everyone to see and comment.
The documents released by wikileaks are of little real informational value and I have to suspect that they were just released to get wikileaks - and especially Assange - the attention he craves. I used to be sympathetic towards him and what he did, but he is sure trying hard to make himself look like the egotistic, self-centered asshole that he apparently is.


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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: German Kahuna]
    #13556329 - 11/29/10 08:24 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Wasn't aware that Jimmy Wales coined the term Wiki or invented the concept.
I was under the impression that he used an existing thing to build Wikipedia.

?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Doc_T]
    #13556407 - 11/29/10 08:45 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Doc_T said:
Wasn't aware that Jimmy Wales coined the term Wiki or invented the concept.
I was under the impression that he used an existing thing to build Wikipedia.

?




I'm not sure of the relevance to this discussion, but you can read about the history of wikipedia and about Jimmy Wales at Wiki.


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Offlinemigraineur
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13556455 - 11/29/10 09:01 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Hey,

I like what Wikileaks has done but I am still trying to figure out the new release. Not much has been released yet so we will have to wait and see until a more informed judgment can be made.

You say "As IkiLeaks has morphed from a whistleblower site and moved towards a irresponsible mouthpiece that simply publishes classified material to make a name for itself, I have lost all respect for what they do"

This is debatable. You can see this as whistle blowing on a larger scale.

Civil disobedience can be justified in certain situations, especially if people feel that the laws that are in place are immoral (if you are a member of this site I am sure you already think that many of the current drug laws are immoral, especially for those who suffer from pain). I am sure you know already that there are many who are in positions of power and who abuse abuse that power. They will also hide behind their laws if they are opposed. Check out the Hepting V ATT case below where the government gave itself retroactive immunity.

If you look up the Wikipedia entries for civil disobedience, hacktivism and activism then you can get a better understanding. You can also find plenty of other articles and books etc.

Check out these real life examples which you might consider relevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepting_v._AT%26T

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Klein

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy

All of this is done in the name of national security. Many in power will try to tell you that if you have nothing to hide then why won't you give others easy access to *insert what ever information here*. However, those in power can use that information against you. Not every government is benevolent and it is a constant challenge to keep those in power responsible and not corrupt. This is something that Wikileaks does.

One thing that made me laugh hard was when I saw some American military leaders on television saying that Wikileaks had blood on their hands. I do agree, however, that the United States is a lot better than many other countries and their governments. I would much rather live in the USA than in China or Russia. If Mr Assange were from one of these countries then he would probably be having a dirt nap right about now. However, one could argue that this does not excuse many of the actions of the USA although I am sure many spy agencies around the world do the same, similar and even worse. It just seems that the USA got caught out publicly as opposed to many of the other countries which have managed to keep information under wraps....for now.

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InvisibleShins
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: migraineur] * 1
    #13557612 - 11/29/10 02:32 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Wow, don't you guys value the truth?  That is all it is about.  The "diplomats" said the words not wikileaks.  If it was is so damaging to international relations, they shouldn't have been saying it in secret in the first place.

It's proof how two faced these guys are, and now it can be witnessed in the court of public opinion where it belongs.

I don't know what kind of loyalties you guys have for those two faces liars but IMO there is nothing wrong with revealing their true nature.


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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13557910 - 11/29/10 03:42 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
I'm not sure of the relevance to this discussion, but you can read about the history of wikipedia and about Jimmy Wales at Wiki.




Relevenace: sounded like he was crying over nothing.
Which your link shows is correct.

Quote:

the concept and technology of a wiki pioneered by Ward Cunningham.




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OfflineSeussA
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Doc_T]
    #13557995 - 11/29/10 04:00 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Again, I fail to see the relevance.  The concept and technology, the implementation of the technology, the founder of the site, etc... He is the founder, or co-founder, of wiki.  He has a right to be upset when somebody misuses the name.  I only included the bit as an aside for why I dislike using the name WikiLeaks.  Out of respect for the (co-)founder of Wikipedia, I will use IkiLeaks instead.  Others are free to do as they wish.


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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13558075 - 11/29/10 04:12 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

No, he got the idea of and name for wiki from somebody else. He made the term famous, yes- but it's not his term.
Like Microsoft and Apple arguing over GUI design when they both took the idea from Xerox.

I guess I don't get the story. I'll shut up now, I'm honestly not that interested in it.

But I :heart: Wikipedia even if Jimmy Wales is a crybaby.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Doc_T]
    #13559709 - 11/29/10 08:49 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/218765-Wikileaks-Announces-Next-Target-US-Banks


Quote:

The founder of whistle-blower website WikiLeaks plans to release tens of thousands of internal documents from a major U.S. bank early next year, Forbes Magazine reported on Monday.

Julian Assange declined in an interview with Forbes to identify the bank, but he said that he expected that the disclosures, which follow his group's release of U.S. military and diplomatic documents, would lead to investigations.

"We have one related to a bank coming up, that's a megaleak. It's not as big a scale as the Iraq material, but it's either tens or hundreds of thousands of documents depending on how you define it," Assange said in the interview posted on the Forbes website.

He declined to identify the bank, describing it only as a major U.S. bank that is still in existence.

Asked what he wanted to be the result of the disclosure, he replied: "I'm not sure. It will give a true and representative insight into how banks behave at the executive level in a way that will stimulate investigations and reforms, I presume."

He compared this release to emails that were unveiled as a result of the collapse of disgraced energy company Enron Corp.

"This will be like that. Yes, there will be some flagrant violations, unethical practices that will be revealed, but it will also be all the supporting decision-making structures and the internal executive ethos ... and that's tremendously valuable," Assange said.

"You could call it the ecosystem of corruption. But it's also all the regular decision making that turns a blind eye to and supports unethical practices: the oversight that's not done, the priorities of executives, how they think they're fulfilling their own self-interest," he said.

Assange also told the magazine that his group has material on many businesses and governments, including in Russia, and that it has some documents on pharmaceutical companies, which he did not identify.

More than 250,000 cables were obtained by the whistle-blower website and given to the New York Times and other media groups, which published stories on Sunday exposing the inner workings of U.S. diplomacy, including candid and embarrassing assessments of world leaders.

Before Sunday, WikiLeaks had made public nearly 500,000 classified U.S. files on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.




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OfflineNexius
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Nexius]
    #13559805 - 11/29/10 09:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

http://mycatbirdseat.com/2010/11/gordon-duff-wikileaks-a-touch-of-assange-and-the-stench-of-aipac/




Quote:

Wikileaks is like a TV show that never gets off the ground.  We started with a “shoot ‘em up” in Iraq, the helicopter slaughter soon forgotten and move on to, well, what?  We got a deluge of material from Afghanistan, carefully gleaned to point fingers at Pakistan.  When it came down to backing any of it up, it went nowhere.

Considering the massive corruption and drug scandals, even the revelations that President Karzai has been in negotiations with pranksters pretending to be the Talbian, all the really juicy stuff from Afghanistan must have been in another drawer. Then we got Iraq.  Ah, Iraq.  There, we could check.  We know the people who wrote the leaked material.  They told us Wikileaks edited it, altered it, redacted it more than the Pentagon.

The “Iraq War Log” was, well…phony. There is one thing that has been consistent about Wikileaks and our prediction is that this next batch, reputed to be millions of highly sensitive documents, will prove our point. Wikileaks is Israel.

    Wikileaks is an intelligence operation to weaken and undermine the American government, orchestrated from Tel Aviv, using dozens of operatives, dual citizens, some at the highest authority levels, spies for Israel.  Through leaking carefully selected intelligence along with proven falsified documents, all fed to a controlled press, fully complicit, Wikileaks is, in fact, an act of war against the United States.

HOW CAN ISRAEL SIFT THROUGH DEFENSE DOCUMENTS?

This last week, in a lawsuit over an AIPAC, (Israel’s lobby) employee reputedly fired for being caught spying against the US, news stories across the United States reported that, as part of that $20 million civil case, evidence will be presented that masses of classified material come to AIPAC and Israel continually.  Is AIPAC Wikileaks? The only evidence of any massive leak discovered in the Pentagon is AIPAC.  Last week’s Washington Post story was buried quicker than a carp in a playground: Jeff Stein, at the Washinton Post, reports the following:

    Rosen says his actions were common practice at the organization. He said his next move is to show that AIPAC, Washington’s major pro-Israeli lobbying group by far, regularly traffics in sensitive U.S. government information, especially material related to the Middle East. “I will introduce documentary evidence that AIPAC approved of the receipt of classified information,” he said by e-mail. “Most instances of actual receipt are hard to document, because orally received information rarely comes with classified stamps on it nor record’s alerts that the information is classified.”

    But Rosen said he would produce “statements of AIPAC employees to the FBI, internal documents, deposition statements, public statements and other evidence showing that [the] receipt of classified information by employees other than [himself] … was condoned … for months prior to being condemned in March 2005 after threats from the prosecutors.”

How does this apply to Wikileaks?  The answer, if we bother to put the pieces together, is staring us in the face.  The proof, the ultimate proof, however, will be in the current batch of documents that have already been prepared, weeks of work by dozens with access to classified documents, and only one group has that access and can operate with impunity, as was shown in a recent story in Veterans Today:

    AIPAC is a sham.  The group has, over the years, destroyed anyone who has tried to have it named what it really is, a dangerous foreign lobby and nest of spies.  AIPAC is the most feared organization in Washington and most powerful, above any law.  A former employee of AIPAC, Steve Rosen, who AIPAC claims was a spy, more appropriately a “caught” spy, now claims his former employer does nothing but spy. Rosen stands to get $20 million in his defamation lawsuit against AIPAC.

    He isn’t without motive but we have also learned that Rosen has considerable documentation of AIPAC receiving and disseminating classified information, received from, well, we have to call them traitors, inside the US government. We know that a vast spy ring operates in Washington and that Israel is the center of it.

    We also know that Israel, Turkey, India, Pakistan, China and Russia trade American secrets back and forth like baseball cards.  We know that AIPAC is deeply involved in this spying. We know that AIPAC claims to hold signed letters of unconditional support from 80% of the members of congress, all of whom received campaign contributions arranged by AIPAC, with many elections financed almost entirely by AIPAC, a group involved, according to the Washington Post and Steve Rosen, in spying on the United States with seeming complicity by the FBI itself.

WHAT DO WE LOOK FOR, HOW CAN WE PROVE ISRAEL OR AIPAC MAY BE BEHIND WIKILEAKS?

Were we to ask author Jeff Gates, he would point to the “storytelling” aspect of Wikileaks, Assange and his “on again-off again” rape charges or that someone that manages to make it to continual television interviews can’t be found by police or security services. We call this “storytelling” and Jeff Gates tells us that Israel, the power behind Hollywood and the American press, is the “storyteller” of all time.

There are better ways to “prove,” a word as subjective as any of the storytelling around the Wikileaks myth itself.  The proof, always depending on who accepts the proof, and as is almost always the case, dependent on whether the press itself chooses to report it, which if Israel is involved, is more than a bit predictable itself. Lack of reporting potential Israeli complicity in Wikileaks, knowing AIPAC and Israel have the longest history of accessing classified information and, by far, the strongest agenda for leaking information, could be seen as conclusive proof itself.

WHAT WILL BE IN WIKILEAKS?

If dual citizens who make up much of the Pentagon’s leadership are working with Israel or AIPAC to formulate Wikileaks, as seems to be the case, then the upcoming leak will serve a pro-Israeli agenda, even if it damages the United States, as other Wikileaks have.  These are Israeli agenda items:

    * Discrediting Obama foreign policy in order to weaken the president’s influence with congress to push for a halt on new settlements in Palestine and the forced removal of Islamic property owners.
    * Accusations involving Turkey, now feuding with Israel over the killing of Turkish citizens on the Mavi Marmara, now recognized as a purely humanitarian mission.  These accusations against Turkey may include weapons being supplied to terrorists in Iraq, a fanciful abuse of reality.  What will not be reported, if this story is “leaked” either through Wikileaks or the other Israeli sources, “Debka”..”Stratfor”..”FamilySecurityMatters.org”..or the infamous “IsraelNationalNews.com” is Israel’s 40 years of complicity in the very acts they now accuse Turkey of.
    * More importantly, is the issue of blaming Turkey for the actions of the terrorist group, PKK, long funded by Israel and now claimed to be allied to Al Qaeda, is vital to Israel’s strategy against Turkey.
    * Expect Pakistan to be hit, as usual.  An Islamic nuclear power with a top rate million man army that outclasses Israel hands down, Pakistan, primary competitor for US aid dollars, a country that actually has agreements with the United States and real troops fighting alongside Americans, will get their usual Wikileaks bashing.

WIKILEAKS IS CHICKENFEED MEANT TO COVER ISRAEL’S TAIL

Is it a coincidence that documents regarding Israel, their spying, influence peddling, suspicions of complicity  in terrorism, Yemen, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, across Europe and even the Detroit bombing, those reports are there, they are classified but you will never see one on Wikileaks.  In fact, they are the only classified information that never gets out to the news.  Is that because, as we have learned, the borders of Israel extend well into Washington DC, well into the Pentagon?  What won’t we see in Wikileaks:

    * Nothing in Wikileaks will accuse anyone, even Pakistan or Afghanistan, or complicity in narcotics trafficking nor mention the huge new narcotics industry operating in Iraq.  Ask yourself why.
    * One of the biggest areas of complaint in the Pentagon, more classified White Papers have been written on this than anything else:  “How Israel is Endangering the United States“
    * In fact, the biggest “classified” debate in America is what supporting Israel, a nation with incredible wealth and utterly obnoxious leaders costs the United States.  Rumors of such issues aren’t rumors at all.  When General Petraeus presented his now famous power-point presentation to Admiral Mullen, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, outlining how Israel is undermining American foreign policy, he wasn’t operating without tens of thousands of pages of intelligence behind him.  Not one page, not one word of these studies will be in Wikileaks.
    * When Vice President Joe Biden said the following to Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu:   

    “This is starting to get dangerous for us, what you’re doing here undermines the security of our troops who are fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. That endangers us and it endangers regional peace.”

Are we to believe these statements were taken out of thin air?  In fact, Petraeus, Mullen and Biden are only the tip of the iceberg.  Admiral Mullen, America’s top military leader under the Commander in Chief, has repeatedly cited Israel and America’s relationship, as, not only a liability but something far worse, so much worse that:

    As public statements by Admiral Mullen, Vice President Biden, General Petraeus and others, citing America’s relationship with Israel as a military disaster, are obviously “watered down” for public consumption, can you imagine what classified reports are saying?

WHY PRESIDENT OBAMA IS AFRAID AND WHY AMERICA IS PARALYZED

The greatest fear any president has, even more than impeachment, is the fate of Jimmie Carter.  Carter, now pegged as an “Antisemite” and “enemy of the state” in Israel, is still being sold to Americans as something quite the opposite of reality.  Friends in Israel, if they want to start a row, something not too difficult in Israel as you might guess, will walk around carrying one of Jimmie Carter’s books under their arm.  A Yasser Arafat t-shirt and suicide vest are considered only marginally worse. Carter left office under mysterious circumstances.  Several disasters, high interest rates, the hostage crisis and the failed rescue attempt showed signs of conspiratorial meddling.  His real crimes were:

    * Pushing Israel for a durable and lasting Middle East peace
    * Monetary policies that kept America out of debt…
    * Support of Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid
    * Unwillingness to engage in military adventure

When the defense and oil lobby joined with Israel and Wall Street to crush the Carter presidency, the writing was on the wall.  Interest rates, the “October surprise” and the military sabotaging the hostage rescue attempt, these things destroyed President Carter who might, otherwise, have suffered an “accident” like the Kennedy brothers.  Today, millions of Americans who should be praying to return to Carters foreign policy and fiscal conservatism, are taught to look on him as a failure.  However, more and more, historians are seeing Carter as the last American president.  Every leader since has been dictated to by Israel.




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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Nexius]
    #13561176 - 11/30/10 03:27 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

:rofl:

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InvisibleGerman Kahuna
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Shins]
    #13561582 - 11/30/10 07:52 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Wow, don't you guys value the truth?  That is all it is about.  The "diplomats" said the words not wikileaks.  If it was is so damaging to international relations, they shouldn't have been saying it in secret in the first place.

It's proof how two faced these guys are, and now it can be witnessed in the court of public opinion where it belongs.

I don't know what kind of loyalties you guys have for those two faces liars but IMO there is nothing wrong with revealing their true nature.



It has nothing to do with being two-faced. You don't understand how international diplomacy works very well, that's all.


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"Vegetarian" [ /ˌvedʒəˈteəriən/] - Ancient slang meaning "village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride".

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OfflineGrav
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13561664 - 11/30/10 08:28 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

If CIA wanted Assange, they'd have him.  If they didn't want the information getting out, then they wouldn't allow mainstream news to headline it.  Obviously there is some other motive behind this. 

I would guess, as Nexius provided, probably a CIA/Mossad/Zionist media operation. 

To what ends?  Controlled opposition?  Wikileaks is now infamous for delivering us the hidden "truth".  They're almost like a fancy upgraded version of Alex Jones for cable television.  And yea it's probably to protect Israel's interests in general among other things.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Grav]
    #13561710 - 11/30/10 08:41 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
If CIA wanted Assange, they'd have him.  If they didn't want the information getting out, then they wouldn't allow mainstream news to headline it.  Obviously there is some other motive behind this.




Why would they bother trying to stop him? He doesn't work alone and there are surely quite a few back up copies of the info.

As for stopping the mainstream media... it's not gonna happen. Someone will always be found that will publish despite the risk.


Quote:

I would guess, as Nexius provided, probably a CIA/Mossad/Zionist media operation.




:rofl2:


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineGrav
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #13561761 - 11/30/10 08:54 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Why would they bother trying to stop him? He doesn't work alone and there are surely quite a few back up copies of the info.




That's a great question.  Why would they? Or why wouldn't they?  If this was truly damaging, why not make an example of him?  They've already expressed they wish to take him into custody, do you really believe they can't find him? Really?

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
As for stopping the mainstream media... it's not gonna happen. Someone will always be found that will publish despite the risk.




give me a break.  you can have this back ->  :rofl2:

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Shins] * 1
    #13561785 - 11/30/10 09:02 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Wow, don't you guys value the truth?  That is all it is about.  The "diplomats" said the words not wikileaks.  If it was is so damaging to international relations, they shouldn't have been saying it in secret in the first place.




Value the truth?  Let's have all your truths out, then.

Do you really subscribe to the notion that you and everybody else should be privy to everybody's private conversations and negotiations?  Maybe your social security number?  (It posted soldiers’ Social Security numbers.)
Quote:


It's proof how two faced these guys are, and now it can be witnessed in the court of public opinion where it belongs.




Bullshit.  The public elects people to conduct it's business.  It does not sit in on secret negotiations or intelligence briefings.
Quote:



I don't know what kind of loyalties you guys have for those two faces liars but IMO there is nothing wrong with revealing their true nature.




As much as I would like to know everything that goes on and am a benevolent and brilliant leader I also realize that we have enemies who would do us harm and use any means against us.  Harm in many ways.  We also have allies who, at the same time, are our competitors in other areas.  Ignoring this is vastly naive on a level I can barely comprehend.

Utopians living in a child's garden of grass.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Shins]
    #13561820 - 11/30/10 09:15 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Wow, don't you guys value the truth?  That is all it is about.  The "diplomats" said the words not wikileaks.  If it was is so damaging to international relations, they shouldn't have been saying it in secret in the first place.

It's proof how two faced these guys are, and now it can be witnessed in the court of public opinion where it belongs.

I don't know what kind of loyalties you guys have for those two faces liars but IMO there is nothing wrong with revealing their true nature.



THIS


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Grav]
    #13561879 - 11/30/10 09:36 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
Quote:

Why would they bother trying to stop him? He doesn't work alone and there are surely quite a few back up copies of the info.




That's a great question.  Why would they? Or why wouldn't they?  If this was truly damaging, why not make an example of him?  They've already expressed they wish to take him into custody, do you really believe they can't find him? Really?

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
As for stopping the mainstream media... it's not gonna happen. Someone will always be found that will publish despite the risk.




give me a break.  you can have this back ->  :rofl2:





I figure they have a good idea where he is, if not the precise location... but to what end? The docs would still have been released. When has making an example of something ever completely discouraged it?

Are you doubting someone in the MSM would publish it despite what the CIA might do?

And
Quote:

you can have this back


is a pretty lame comeback for something best addressed in the "conspiracy and wacko nut jobs" forum.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13561884 - 11/30/10 09:38 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
[As much as I would like to know everything that goes on and am a benevolent and brilliant second tier leader I also realize that we have enemies who would do us harm and use any means against us.  Harm in many ways.




Fixed that for you.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #13561905 - 11/30/10 09:44 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I have a very strong feeling (and have for quite some time) that WL is funded by Israel.

There is something up with it.

It's hosted by http://www.dynadot.com/ which is a GoDaddy comanpy http://www.godaddy.com/


Quote:

Registrant ID:CP-13000
Registrant Name:John Shipton c/o Dynadot Privacy
Registrant Street1:PO Box 701
Registrant Street2:
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:San Mateo
Registrant State/Province:CA
Registrant Postal Code:94401
Registrant Country:US





So the government does have the ability to do what they please with it; as it's usa based.


:shrug:


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Nexius]
    #13561920 - 11/30/10 09:48 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Well, seeing as how the US government is rotten to the core from Mossad infiltrants, I doubt they will act upon it, even if true.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Nexius]
    #13561925 - 11/30/10 09:48 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Nexius said:
I have a very strong feeling (and have for quite some time) that WL is funded by Israel.

There is something up with it.

It's hosted by http://www.dynadot.com/ which is a GoDaddy comanpy http://www.godaddy.com/


Quote:

Registrant ID:CP-13000
Registrant Name:John Shipton c/o Dynadot Privacy
Registrant Street1:PO Box 701
Registrant Street2:
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:San Mateo
Registrant State/Province:CA
Registrant Postal Code:94401
Registrant Country:US





So the government does have the ability to do what they please with it; as it's usa based.


:shrug:



:morefoil:


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13561926 - 11/30/10 09:49 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
Well, seeing as how the US government is rotten to the core from Mossad infiltrants, I doubt they will act upon it, even if true.



:morefoil:


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #13561931 - 11/30/10 09:49 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
[As much as I would like to know everything that goes on and am a benevolent and brilliant second tier leader I also realize that we have enemies who would do us harm and use any means against us.  Harm in many ways.




Fixed that for you.



BLASPHEMER!


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13561933 - 11/30/10 09:49 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
As much as I would like to know everything that goes on and am a benevolent and brilliant leader I also realize that we have enemies who would do us harm and use any means against us.  Harm in many ways.  We also have allies who, at the same time, are our competitors in other areas.  Ignoring this is vastly naive on a level I can barely comprehend.

Utopians living in a child's garden of grass.




in other words: here's a blank check, do whatever you want with no visible checks and balances, and we'll just hope it's in the people's best interests? 
whose living in a Utopia?

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13561935 - 11/30/10 09:50 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

It's their agenda to stir shit up man.

These Mossad Infiltrates are using the USA to do their dirty work (if this is the case) then they will destroy the USA from the inside out.

They don't like us, they never did and never will.

Simple fact.

Secret warfare.


Oh and BTW....
http://www.foodproductdesign.com/news/2010/11/senate-passes-historic-food-safety-reform-bill.aspx


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13561948 - 11/30/10 09:52 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
Well, seeing as how the US government is rotten to the core from Mossad infiltrants, I doubt they will act upon it, even if true.



:morefoil:



Fuck off with your tin foil hat emoticon. Just the other day, a member of the Dutch PVV (a right wing, explicitly anti-islam party) was arrested for being a Mossad infiltrant. I SPIT on your tin foil emoticon-mockery.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Grav]
    #13561953 - 11/30/10 09:53 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Not me.  I will ask this yet again;

Do you think there should be no secrets?  Do you think everyone should be privy to all negotiations and all intelligence briefings?  Don't bother answering, "yes", Anonymous Internet Poster.



Who said anything about a blank check?  They get tossed out of they suck.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13561954 - 11/30/10 09:53 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

so it looks like Islam won...
10 years after Sept11, Islam still dominates news media...
Arabs own English football teams, Citibank, FOX news, News Corp.
Muslims are growing in numbers in Europe and North America...


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13561990 - 11/30/10 10:00 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
Well, seeing as how the US government is rotten to the core from Mossad infiltrants, I doubt they will act upon it, even if true.



:morefoil:



Fuck off with your tin foil hat emoticon. Just the other day, a member of the Dutch PVV (a right wing, explicitly anti-islam party) was arrested for being a Mossad infiltrant. I SPIT on your tin foil emoticon-mockery.




Link?  I call bullshit.
If the 13 million Jews in the world run it they are clearly superior beings.  Maybe you should just give in.  They are clearly better than you.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13562006 - 11/30/10 10:03 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
Well, seeing as how the US government is rotten to the core from Mossad infiltrants, I doubt they will act upon it, even if true.



:morefoil:



Fuck off with your tin foil hat emoticon. Just the other day, a member of the Dutch PVV (a right wing, explicitly anti-islam party) was arrested for being a Mossad infiltrant. I SPIT on your tin foil emoticon-mockery.




Link?  I call bullshit.
If the 13 million Jews in the world run it they are clearly superior beings.  Maybe you should just give in.  They are clearly better than you.




You always want sources from the CLAM

get your head out of your ass


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13562030 - 11/30/10 10:06 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
Well, seeing as how the US government is rotten to the core from Mossad infiltrants, I doubt they will act upon it, even if true.



:morefoil:



Fuck off with your tin foil hat emoticon. Just the other day, a member of the Dutch PVV (a right wing, explicitly anti-islam party) was arrested for being a Mossad infiltrant. I SPIT on your tin foil emoticon-mockery.




Link?  I call bullshit.
If the 13 million Jews in the world run it they are clearly superior beings.  Maybe you should just give in.  They are clearly better than you.



Can't find links in the mainstream media, but it was all over the news a while ago.

This article makes no claims but just lists factual information of what happened:

http://spiritualchange.blogsome.com/2010/07/25/made-in-israel-geert-wilders-accused-of-working-for-mossad/


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13562055 - 11/30/10 10:10 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

FUCK MSM

Islam owns it all anyway... If not owning they have a heavy financial influence in it.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13562156 - 11/30/10 10:30 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Do you think there should be no secrets?




So this is the only system conceivable to monitor and maintain secrets? 

Are they actually keeping important secrets safe?
don't know.

How efficiently are they operating? 
oops, we don't know.

Haven't they been responsible for multiple illegal drug trafficking operations in which they helped literally tons of narcotics get onto American streets?

yes.  but that was for national security, right?


even if you believe 9/11 didn't have inside involvement,  that was their fucking watch and they royally fucked it up.  Were appropriate actions taken afterward?  Who the hell knows!


Quote:

Who said anything about a blank check?  They get tossed out of they suck.




how much do you charge to live in your utopia fantasy land?  it sounds fun.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13562181 - 11/30/10 10:35 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

VisionaryFlicker said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
Well, seeing as how the US government is rotten to the core from Mossad infiltrants, I doubt they will act upon it, even if true.



:morefoil:



Fuck off with your tin foil hat emoticon. Just the other day, a member of the Dutch PVV (a right wing, explicitly anti-islam party) was arrested for being a Mossad infiltrant. I SPIT on your tin foil emoticon-mockery.




Link?  I call bullshit.
If the 13 million Jews in the world run it they are clearly superior beings.  Maybe you should just give in.  They are clearly better than you.



Can't find links in the mainstream media, but it was all over the news a while ago.

This article makes no claims but just lists factual information of what happened:

http://spiritualchange.blogsome.com/2010/07/25/made-in-israel-geert-wilders-accused-of-working-for-mossad/


Right.  That's what I thought.  You are full of shit.  Wilders wasn't arrested for being a Mossad agent and the "factual information" in your link amounts to this:

The testimony, written on june 2nd 2010, states that Geert Wilders and Mrs. Kwint sat at the same table at a party in 1991. After becoming drunk, Wilders told Mrs Kwint that his career was plotted out by the Mossad. The secret service gave him a tough training in which he was even tortured. The divorce and second marriage of Geert Wilders were arranged by the Mossad, Wilders is reported to have said. After Mrs. Kwint told Wilders that her husband had relations to Dutch intelligence, Wilders is said to have uttered words of intimidation to the thought that she would make any mention of their conversation. The declaration can be downloaded here.



Your source for this withering stupidity?  A Muslim nut job website;

We created this blog to combine our interests in both Islam and the developments of the so-called 'New World Order'. Attention is given to politics, history, spirituality and the urgent solutions for world peace offered by the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. This is a personal weblog and does not claim to represent the official views of the Community. For these, we refer you to the official website alislam.org.

ORLY?  Tell me again who is the duped fool.

Go back to the conspiracy forum.  It is generally much safer there because I mostly avoid it like the pestilential cesspool of mediocre nutlogs that it is.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Nexius]
    #13562186 - 11/30/10 10:35 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Nexius said:
FUCK MSM

Islam owns it all anyway... If not owning they have a heavy financial influence in it.



I thought the Jews own it.  Crazy people can't keep their conspirators straight.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13562218 - 11/30/10 10:41 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I've said islam several times, refer to my post in OTD faggot.
Jews is a generalization (and I have said 'jews' before... doesn't mean that there isn't muslim faggotry going on here, let's get specific and talk about the Zionists and Jesuits.

On another note.

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2010/11/zbigniew-brzezinski-who-is-really.html

Quote:

Zbigniew Brzezinski: Who is Really Leaking to Wikileaks?
Zbigniew Brzezinski doesn't think all the leaked information coming out of Wikileaks is a result of Army PFC Bradley Manning, as a matter of fact he suspects a foreign intelligence service may be providing the more embarrassing leaks. In a PBS interview with Judy Woodruff, ZB lays out his thinking:


    JUDY WOODRUFF: Dr. Brzezinski, what do you think the fallout is going to be?

    ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI, former adviser, U.S. National Security: ...

    The real issue is, who is feeding Wikipedia on this issue -- Wiki -- Wiki -- WikiLeaks on this issue? They're getting a lot of information which seems trivial, inconsequential, but some of it seems surprisingly pointed.

    JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, what are you referring to?

    ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI: Well, for example, there are references to a report by our officials that some Chinese leaders favor a reunified Korea under South Korea.

    This is clearly designed to embarrass the Chinese and our relationship with them. The very pointed references to Arab leaders could have as their objective undermining their political credibility at home, because this kind of public identification of their hostility towards Iran could actually play against them at home...

    JUDY WOODRUFF: And what is it -- what are you worried about with regard to the knowledge that...


    ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI: It's not a question of worry. It's, rather, a question of whether WikiLeaks are being manipulated by interested parties that want to either complicate our relationship with other governments or want to undermine some governments, because some of these items that are being emphasized and have surfaced are very pointed.

    And I wonder whether, in fact, there aren't some operations internationally, intelligence services, that are feeding stuff to WikiLeaks, because it is a unique opportunity to embarrass us, to embarrass our position, but also to undermine our relations with particular governments.

    For example, leaving aside the personal gossip about Sarkozy or Berlusconi or Putin, the business about the Turks is clearly calculated in terms of its potential impact on disrupting the American-Turkish relationship.

    JUDY WOODRUFF: Just criticizing the people around...

    ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI: And the top leaders, Erdogan and Davutoglu and so forth, are using some really, really, very sharp language.

    JUDY WOODRUFF: But this is 250 -- it's a quarter-of-a-million documents.

    ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI: Precisely.

    JUDY WOODRUFF: How easy would it be to seed this to make sure that it was slanted a certain way?

    ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI: Seeding -- seeding it is very easy.

    I have no doubt that WikiLeaks is getting a lot of the stuff from sort of relatively unimportant sources, like the one that perhaps is identified on the air. But it may be getting stuff at the same time from interested intelligence parties who want to manipulate the process and achieve certain very specific objectives.

It should be noted that while ZB suspects foreign elements behind some of the leaks, it could very well be internal U.S. elements unhappy with the direction the President is taking things.




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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Nexius]
    #13562233 - 11/30/10 10:44 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

For you zap

http://sayitaintsoalready.com/2010/08/23/rupert-murdochs-business-partner-is-a-muslim/

Quote:

Hey, Fox News fans and Glenn Beck followers, take a good long look at this photograph.  That would be Rupert Murdoch on the left.  He owns Fox News.  The guy on the right is Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal.  bin Talal is Murdoch’s business partner.  He is the second-largest shareholder in News Corp., Fox’s parent company.  And guess what — HE’S A MUSLIM!



The “mosque” insanity perpetrated by Faux and other right wing nut jobs has nothing whatsoever to do with Muslims.  It has to do with scaring and firing up ignorant (and I mean ignorant) Americans so they’ll flock to the polls in November and vote for Republicans so Republicans can keep their tax breaks for the rich and do who knows what else to promote the corporatocracy and screw us small people.

Pull.  Head.  Out.  Of.  Ass.




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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Grav]
    #13562253 - 11/30/10 10:48 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Do you think there should be no secrets?




So this is the only system conceivable to monitor and maintain secrets? 

Are they actually keeping important secrets safe?
don't know.

How efficiently are they operating? 
oops, we don't know.

Haven't they been responsible for multiple illegal drug trafficking operations in which they helped literally tons of narcotics get onto American streets?

yes.  but that was for national security, right?


even if you believe 9/11 didn't have inside involvement,  that was their fucking watch and they royally fucked it up.  Were appropriate actions taken afterward?  Who the hell knows!




What does that have to do with this?  Or releasing soldiers' social security numbers, which is something else the assholes did?  Not a fucking thing.
Quote:






Quote:

Who said anything about a blank check?  They get tossed out of they suck.




how much do you charge to live in your utopia fantasy land?  it sounds fun.





There is no utopia.  Only expedient activity.  How come you never answer the fucking question?  I'll repeat it for you;

Quote:

Do you think there should be no secrets?  Do you think everyone should be privy to all negotiations and all intelligence briefings?  Don't bother answering, "yes", Anonymous Internet Poster.





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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Nexius]
    #13562299 - 11/30/10 10:58 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Nexius said:
For you zap

http://sayitaintsoalready.com/2010/08/23/rupert-murdochs-business-partner-is-a-muslim/

Quote:

Hey, Fox News fans and Glenn Beck followers, take a good long look at this photograph.  That would be Rupert Murdoch on the left.  He owns Fox News.  The guy on the right is Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal.  bin Talal is Murdoch’s business partner.  He is the second-largest shareholder in News Corp., Fox’s parent company.  And guess what — HE’S A MUSLIM!



The “mosque” insanity perpetrated by Faux and other right wing nut jobs has nothing whatsoever to do with Muslims.  It has to do with scaring and firing up ignorant (and I mean ignorant) Americans so they’ll flock to the polls in November and vote for Republicans so Republicans can keep their tax breaks for the rich and do who knows what else to promote the corporatocracy and screw us small people.

Pull.  Head.  Out.  Of.  Ass.






OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH a rich Muslim is the second-largest shareholder in News Corp., Fox’s parent company.  Wow, he owns 9% of the stock of a publicly traded media company.  Stunning.

So which is it?  The JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOS or the MUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZIES?

Maybe it's the Mexicans:

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/carlos_slim_helu/index.html

Quote:

In 2008, Mr. Slim purchased stock that gave him a 6.9 percent ownership stake in The New York Times Company. On Jan. 19, 2009, the newspaper company announced that it had reached an agreement with Mr. Slim for a $250 million loan intended to help it  finance its businesses.




Fucking nutcase infiltrators.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13562400 - 11/30/10 11:19 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

What does that have to do with this?




Does the character of our 'secret-holders' mean anything to you?  or is the pentagon divined from god to be the one and only secret-bearing temple in this nation till the end of time?  If they keep fucking up and doing sketchy shit, why are they still being entrusted with our most important secrets and secret operations? 

If there is no incentive to do a good job, (like to avoid being fired, or at least a performance review) then what's the point of doing it?  They can't really fuck up anymore than they did on 9/11, (short of a nuclear attack) and there was zero visible backlash because of it.

What if they are infiltrated by spies that want to work gradually to undermine and usurp American interests?  Their unchecked nature is prone to the worst kind of corruption.

Quote:

Do you think there should be no secrets?
Do you think everyone should be privy to all negotiations and all intelligence briefings?




No.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss] * 1
    #13562486 - 11/30/10 11:39 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

~


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Shroomism]
    #13562550 - 11/30/10 11:54 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Who elected that cocksucking freak to be the arbiter of what is and is not appropriately secret?  Or you?


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13562554 - 11/30/10 11:55 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

They aren't elected


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Shroomism]
    #13562567 - 11/30/10 11:57 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The President and all of our representatives are.  Neither you nor Assholeange have any authority or permission to decide.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Shroomism]
    #13562571 - 11/30/10 11:58 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
They aren't elected



that's kinda the point, right? :ronpaul:


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Shroomism]
    #13562595 - 11/30/10 12:02 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:

Someone will replace him, they will kill him like they did John Lennon and JFK and then 20 more will rise up





Cuckoo, cuckoo.
Quote:


Soon the murderers will be bought to trial and made to take responsibility for their actions, this is our planet, not theirs.




Don't include myself or most of the population of the US in any imaginary our with you.  You are at best a small marginalized faction.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13562605 - 11/30/10 12:04 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Shroomism said:

Someone will replace him, they will kill him like they did John Lennon and JFK and then 20 more will rise up





Cuckoo, cuckoo.
Quote:


Soon the murderers will be bought to trial and made to take responsibility for their actions, this is our planet, not theirs.




Don't include myself or most of the population of the US in any imaginary our with you.  You are at best a small marginalized faction.



Why are you so fucking sure all if this is just conspiracist nonsense? You think the government is above any of this? Do you think the U.S. government will stop at ANYTHING to achieve their ends? :lol:


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13562842 - 11/30/10 01:04 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think they are, nor do I expect and demand them to be, that competent.  They couldn't do it even if, as the lunatics assert, they felt the need to.

I think there is a special place in psychological hell for people who persist in believing that either Lennon or JFK was murdered by some all-controlling cabal of dark ops controllers.  Most notably it is the eager acceptance of their perpetual excuse making for why their lives have been a failure.  They would be much better served by getting off their whiny asses and making a life for themselves.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13562984 - 11/30/10 01:37 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Another shroomerite just said, and I quote:

Quote:

The military personel that leaked that information should be shot in the back of the head, those hosting and spreading the information post-leak are perfectly fine.




I agree with that on some level.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #13563063 - 11/30/10 02:02 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know about shot but he is right that Assange is just a tool.  Although I would see him prosecuted for posting the social security numbers of soldiers.

Manning is going to assuredly spend many years in prison and by the look of him will be quite popular with the lads.  Oh well.  DADT.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13563917 - 11/30/10 05:23 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

he certainly is a tool.  and wikileaks is nothing but a controlled psy-op.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13564155 - 11/30/10 06:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH a rich Muslim is the second-largest shareholder in News Corp., Fox’s parent company.  Wow, he owns 9% of the stock of a publicly traded media company.  Stunning.




I don't think it's that he's a Muslim, so much as that he's a fucking Saudi Prince. A goat-raping, honor-killing, medieval plutocrat who would be playing with his own poop if the rest of the world didn't need his Kingdom's (yes, that's 'Kingdom', in 2010) oil.

Seriously, in a perfect world, these fuckers would be dead, and the women in their countries would not be stoned to death for rape, forced to wear tents, 'circumcized', etc. Not to mention that whole 9/11 thing; so much for 'never forget', eh?

Wait a sec... if the Saudis fund terrorists who kill Americans, and Fox News pays dividends to the Saudis... hmm... if only I had a chalkboard. :strokebeard:

(Now if only I could find pictures of a Republican President holding hands with one of these fucks and walking through the White House garden, kissing him on the cheek, et cetera... that would be icing on the cake!)

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: jimbotron]
    #13564503 - 11/30/10 07:06 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> A goat-raping, honor-killing, medieval plutocrat who would be playing with his own poop if the rest of the world didn't need his Kingdom's

Wow, you sound just like one of those right wing extremist tea party types that Anna loves so much. 

> Wait a sec... if the Saudis fund terrorists who kill Americans, and Fox News pays dividends to the Saudis... hmm... if only I had a chalkboard. :strokebeard:

Corporations that decide to pay dividends do not get to choose to pay some shareholders and not others (of the same type of stock).


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13566593 - 12/01/10 05:48 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The President and all of our representatives are.  Neither you nor Assholeange have any authority or permission to decide.





of course they do, once the shit is in their hands it's entirely up to
them to do what ever they want with it. do you leave your secrets laying
around the house for just anyone to come along and distribute

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13566605 - 12/01/10 05:57 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
1) Wikipedia co-founder Jimmy Wales said, "I would distance myself from WikiLeaks, I wish they wouldn't use the name, they are not a Wiki. A big way they got famous in the first place was by using the word Wiki, which was unfortunate in my view".




is he upset about all the other sites that arent true wikis are using the
name, would he still be upset if they were a wiki

of course if they were a wiki I can guess how quickly the site would have
shut down based solely on the hassle of having to ban 90% of the people
editing the crap

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13567527 - 12/01/10 11:39 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The President and all of our representatives are.  Neither you nor Assholeange have any authority or permission to decide.





of course they do, once the shit is in their hands it's entirely up to
them to do what ever they want with it. do you leave your secrets laying
around the house for just anyone to come along and distribute



No.  We'll see what happens to asshole.  Interpol has him listed as most wanted.  I do, however, often leave valuable items in plain sight in my house.  If you take them you are a thief and will be prosecuted.  I'm surprised they aren't going after Assange for receiving stolen property.  Maybe when the idiot Holder gets back from lobbying for the World Cup in 2022 he'll look into it.  He certainly isn't tied up in any New Black Panther voter intimidation prosecutions.

You are 100% correct to point out the dereliction of duty at State in 1.  allowing Manning access, 2. allowing him to remove data and 3. utterly failing to do anything after the cat got out of the bag.  Then again, incompetence has been a main feature of the  State Department for decades.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13567580 - 12/01/10 11:51 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

secrets aren't possessions.  if i see two guys making a covert deal (providing i haven't signed any non-disclosure agreements)  I can tell whoever the hell i want

and nothing will happen to assange.  he's the media's 'hero' and he's white, and a convenient new terrorist.  it's all a bunch of noise to help influence policy.  wikileaks is an asset not a liability.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13567709 - 12/01/10 12:14 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
secrets aren't possessions.  if i see two guys making a covert deal (providing i haven't signed any non-disclosure agreements)  I can tell whoever the hell i want





What he said.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I'm surprised they aren't going after Assange for receiving stolen property.




They won't do that just like they won't prosecute the New York Times, Deutsche Welt, or The Guardian for publishing them.  Leaked secrets are simply not stolen property.  Not by any stretch.  And no court has ever deemed anything of that nature in history.  Once secrets aren't secrets anymore, they no longer have any special status and can be disseminated at will.  Ever heard of the Pentagon Papers?

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #13567811 - 12/01/10 12:43 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Breaking news...WikiLeaks disappeared from Interwebz according to AP:

NEW YORK – The website of WikiLeaks, the organization that just released a trove of sensitive U.S. State Department documents, appears to have lost or left its main Web host, Amazon.com.

The main website and a sub-site devoted to the diplomatic documents were unavailable from the U.S. and Europe on Wednesday, as Amazon servers refused to acknowledge requests for data.

Availability of the sites has been spotty since Sunday, when it started to come under a series of Internet-based attacks by unknown hackers. WikiLeaks dealt with the attacks in part by moving to servers run by Amazon Web Services, which is self-service.

Amazon.com Inc. would not comment on its relationship with WikiLeaks or whether it forced the site to leave. Messages seeking comment from WikiLeaks were not immediately returned."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101201/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_wikileaks_amazon


what the fuck took them so long?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Grav]
    #13567852 - 12/01/10 12:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
secrets aren't possessions.  if i see two guys making a covert deal (providing i haven't signed any non-disclosure agreements)  I can tell whoever the hell i want




ORLY?  You can go to jail for stealing corporate secrets.  You have no idea what you are talking about.
Quote:



and nothing will happen to assange.  he's the media's 'hero' and he's white, and a convenient new terrorist.  it's all a bunch of noise to help influence policy.  wikileaks is an asset not a liability.




Asset to who?  Not me.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: lonestar2004]
    #13567855 - 12/01/10 12:55 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Breaking news...WikiLeaks disappeared from Interwebz according to AP:

NEW YORK – The website of WikiLeaks, the organization that just released a trove of sensitive U.S. State Department documents, appears to have lost or left its main Web host, Amazon.com.

The main website and a sub-site devoted to the diplomatic documents were unavailable from the U.S. and Europe on Wednesday, as Amazon servers refused to acknowledge requests for data.

Availability of the sites has been spotty since Sunday, when it started to come under a series of Internet-based attacks by unknown hackers. WikiLeaks dealt with the attacks in part by moving to servers run by Amazon Web Services, which is self-service.

Amazon.com Inc. would not comment on its relationship with WikiLeaks or whether it forced the site to leave. Messages seeking comment from WikiLeaks were not immediately returned."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101201/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_wikileaks_amazon


what the fuck took them so long?




Gross incompetence by State, Obama and Hillary


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13567875 - 12/01/10 01:00 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

"White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said Wednesday that Mr. Assange's statements "are both ridiculous and absurd." Mrs. Clinton, he said, has done nothing wrong, and U.S. diplomats do not engage in spying. "

Gibbs said they aren’t scared of Wikileaks because it’s “only one guy with one website” and that our foreign policy is stronger than that. “Let’s not be scared of one guy with a laptop”, Gibbs added.





http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/dec/1/white-house-clinton-didnt-order-diplomats-spy/



hes gone....


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: lonestar2004]
    #13567879 - 12/01/10 01:00 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

gibbs


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: lonestar2004]
    #13567889 - 12/01/10 01:02 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Gibbs definitely should be gone.  He isn't even adept at skillfully dodging questions.  Fuck, Mr. Al dodges questions better than Gibbs.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13568040 - 12/01/10 01:34 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> Fuck, Mr. Al dodges questions better than Gibbs.

:lol:

> Gibbs definitely should be gone.

Along with a lot of Teleprompter One's other "yes bitches".  The country needs leadership, not a bunch of, um, um, ah, um... oh screw it.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13568081 - 12/01/10 01:41 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
ORLY?  You can go to jail for stealing corporate secrets.




But you can't go to jail for publishing them if you did not steal them yourself.

Quote:

You have no idea what you are talking about.




If I had a penny for every time you've said that...

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: lonestar2004]
    #13568090 - 12/01/10 01:42 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Breaking news...WikiLeaks disappeared from Interwebz according to AP:





Good thing it's been mirrored...

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13568111 - 12/01/10 01:46 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I'm curious how many people here have downloaded the set of currently released leaks...  And if so, if it was via direct http download or via torrent.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13568165 - 12/01/10 01:56 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Gibbs definitely should be gone.  He isn't even adept at skillfully dodging questions.  Fuck, Mr. Al dodges questions better than Gibbs.





It is a strange thing for a man to lose his job on account of not being "credibly dishonest enough".

You don't answer any damn questions and can't debate your way out of a paper bag.

Must be because government has your balls.

Fucking ball-snatchers...

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #13568171 - 12/01/10 01:56 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> But you can't go to jail for publishing them if you did not steal them yourself.

Be careful, cause it all depends upon jurisdiction.  Look at Apple in California and the stolen/lost prototype iPhone as a good case study.  Publishing trade secrets in California is a big no-no.


Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Breaking news...WikiLeaks disappeared from Interwebz according to AP:





Good thing it's been mirrored...




Their (IkiLeaks) reply...
Quote:

"WikiLeaks servers at Amazon ousted. Free speech the land of the free--fine our $ are now spent to employ people in Europe," the organization said Wednesday in a posting on the Twitter messaging service.




Apparently, they fail to see the difference between a private company and the federal government with respect to freedom of speech.  Nowhere does the US Constitution say that a private company must grant everybody free speech.

Edited by Seuss (12/01/10 03:04 PM)

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13568312 - 12/01/10 02:17 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> But you can't go to jail for publishing them if you did not steal them yourself.

Be careful, cause it all depends upon jurisdiction.  Look at Apple in California and the stolen/lost prototype iPhone as a good case study.  Publishing trade secrets in California is a big no-no.




That involved a piece of purportedly stolen hardware and a probably not very well informed judge.  It was the link to the stolen hardware (and the search for evidence in that case) that got the warrant issued, not the data that was published. 

What ever happened with that anyway?  Were charges ever filed?  If so, are they still pending or were they dropped?  Have the police been sued?  Considering that:
  • from many perspectives that raid was possibly illegal, and
  • that the case hasn't hasn't resulted in any legal precedent (other than the warrant being issued possibly illegally, but what is new in that?),
the iphone raid doesn't seem to do much to back up your claim that publishing trade secrets in California is a big no-no...

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #13568424 - 12/01/10 02:36 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Ack!  This was a mis-post.  I started to write it, and then did not post it because I was not sure that I was correct.  My main concern was trade secret as information vs trade secret as an item.  Not sure how this made it to the forum.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Mr.Al]
    #13568438 - 12/01/10 02:38 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Gibbs definitely should be gone.  He isn't even adept at skillfully dodging questions.  Fuck, Mr. Al dodges questions better than Gibbs.





It is a strange thing for a man to lose his job on account of not being "credibly dishonest enough".

You don't answer any damn questions and can't debate your way out of a paper bag.

Must be because government has your balls.

Fucking ball-snatchers...



I answer all your questions, Al, as far as I can recall.  Sometimes the same fucking one several times.

I must admit that governments have prevented me from being the despot I could have been.  How are you with windows?  Squeaky clean or streaky.  'Cause streaky gets you a wuppin.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13568549 - 12/01/10 02:59 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

oh stop making excuses,  i'm sure you could still be a despot if you really wanted.  maybe just don't have it in ya.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Grav]
    #13568762 - 12/01/10 03:34 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

If there was a level playing field...............


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13568930 - 12/01/10 04:12 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
  I'm surprised they aren't going after Assange for receiving stolen property.






is the government now missing those secret documents or do they still have
them and Assbrains only has copies, if he only has copies was anything
actually stolen since the government still has the originals and obviously
since this was information that government had no intention of publishing
for profit they cant call in the RIAA/MPIAA to kick in any doors

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13570131 - 12/01/10 08:13 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

So you're saying you sold assbrain the copies?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13572822 - 12/02/10 11:41 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
  I'm surprised they aren't going after Assange for receiving stolen property.






is the government now missing those secret documents or do they still have
them and Assbrains only has copies, if he only has copies was anything
actually stolen since the government still has the originals and obviously
since this was information that government had no intention of publishing
for profit they cant call in the RIAA/MPIAA to kick in any doors



Yes.  They are no longer have secret documents.  They are now public documents, the value of which has been destroyed through their disclosure.  Not all profit is in the form of dollars.

Stealing corporate secrets is stealing.  A point of law you might want to consider.  Did you know you can go to jail for insider trading?  It's true.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13572882 - 12/02/10 11:55 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Stealing corporate secrets is stealing.  A point of law you might want to consider.  Did you know you can go to jail for insider trading?  It's true.




Nobody is debating that it was illegal to steal the information in the first place.  Your idea that wikileaks could somehow be prosecuted for "receiving stolen property" though is just a fantasy.  It's never happened and has no legal basis.  I ask you again, have you ever heard of the Pentagon Papers?

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #13572926 - 12/02/10 12:01 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, I have.  I thought Ellsberg, the Washington Post and the NY Times should have been prosecuted.  In fact, I have believed that the NY Times should be prosecuted many times over the years.  For instance for this


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13573109 - 12/02/10 12:40 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Yes.  They are no longer have secret documents.  They are now public documents, the value of which has been destroyed through their disclosure.  Not all profit is in the form of dollars.




who is supposed to be profiting? 

Quote:

Stealing corporate secrets is stealing.  A point of law you might want to consider.




then let the injured party come forward.  i don't see any corporations stepping up to claim losses.  just a bunch of politicians bitching and whining.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13573128 - 12/02/10 12:43 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Yes, I have.  I thought Ellsberg, the Washington Post and the NY Times should have been prosecuted.  In fact, I have believed that the NY Times should be prosecuted many times over the years.  For instance for this




The reason they weren't prosecuted is because what they did wasn't a crime.

You're free to advocate the making of a new law which probably wouldn't pass constitutional muster, but it wouldn't be possible to prosecute wikileaks for this leak under a new law anyway as that would also be unconstitutional. 

Troll on buddy.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Grav]
    #13573196 - 12/02/10 01:03 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Yes.  They are no longer have secret documents.  They are now public documents, the value of which has been destroyed through their disclosure.  Not all profit is in the form of dollars.




who is supposed to be profiting?




The American people.
Quote:



Quote:

Stealing corporate secrets is stealing.  A point of law you might want to consider.




then let the injured party come forward.  i don't see any corporations stepping up to claim losses.  just a bunch of politicians bitching and whining.




Corporations step up to claim industrial secrets losses in lawsuits all the time


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #13573249 - 12/02/10 01:13 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Yes, I have.  I thought Ellsberg, the Washington Post and the NY Times should have been prosecuted.  In fact, I have believed that the NY Times should be prosecuted many times over the years.  For instance for this




The reason they weren't prosecuted is because what they did wasn't a crime.

You're free to advocate the making of a new law which probably wouldn't pass constitutional muster, but it wouldn't be possible to prosecute wikileaks for this leak under a new law anyway as that would also be unconstitutional. 

Troll on buddy.




Sorry, I am not at all sure that the reason they weren't prosecuted is because it wasn't criminal.  I suspect it was a political decision.

Ellsberg was prosecuted but they botched the case with illegal wiretaps and other prosecutorial malfeasance.

Do you know what would pass Constitutional muster?  A law that says publishing classified documents is a crime even when not directly procured by the publishing agency.  Yes, that would pass muster.  In fact, there already is one.

I am not a troll.  I suggest you look up the meaning of the word.  It does not mean "someone who thinks ChuangTzu is wrong".


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13573414 - 12/02/10 01:47 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

You do know wikileaks is actually made to help the nwo.
They have info on every country, banks, whatever. They use all the info to control every part of the world by blackmail.
This explains it better
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread636006/pg1


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13573438 - 12/02/10 01:50 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The American people.




really? can you provide a link to that contract?  i don't think you know what you're talking about.

Quote:


Corporations step up to claim industrial secrets losses in lawsuits all the time




corporations make lots of claims.  doesn't mean it will always be recognized.  so what party is claiming losses for stolen property from the wikileaks?

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Divinity]
    #13573454 - 12/02/10 01:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Divinity said:
You do know wikileaks is actually made to help the nwo.





it's almost laughable how obvious it is.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Grav]
    #13573519 - 12/02/10 02:05 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The American people.




really? can you provide a link to that contract?  i don't think you know what you're talking about.




Contract?  The American people don't profit by having secure diplomatic relations?  How silly of you. 

I don't think you know what you're talking about.  You certainly seem incapable of following a point
Quote:



Quote:


Corporations step up to claim industrial secrets losses in lawsuits all the time




corporations make lots of claims.  doesn't mean it will always be recognized.  so what party is claiming losses for stolen property from the wikileaks?




The American people.  Again.  Not all losses are monetary.  I'm going to type that again LOUDER.  NOT ALL LOSSES ARE MONETARY!  Get it yet?  In fact, there are often non-monetary losses that get remedied with monetary judgments.

Did you even check the link?  They settled for more than $15M.  And that was just one example of a recent story I recalled off the top of my head.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13574092 - 12/02/10 04:03 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

i never said all losses are monetary, did i?

and it looks like our "diplomatic relations"(that you seem to have deluded yourself into thinking we're profiting from) are NOT secure if they GOT LEAKED.  so when do i get my refund check for the shitty service?

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13574109 - 12/02/10 04:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Sorry, I am not at all sure that the reason they weren't prosecuted is because it wasn't criminal.  I suspect it was a political decision.





The federal government tried to get an injunction against the newspapers publishing the documents.  The supreme court refused to uphold the injunction and allowed the newspapers to publish the documents.  The same federal officials who sought the injunction were the ones who could have prosecuted the newspapers but they didn't.  Because the supreme court specifically allowed the papers' publication.  So you think the supreme court's decision was political?  Care to explain that further?

Quote:


Ellsberg was prosecuted but they botched the case with illegal wiretaps and other prosecutorial malfeasance.




Of course he was prosecuted as he should have been.  He's the one who stole the F'n documents. 

Quote:

Do you know what would pass Constitutional muster?  A law that says publishing classified documents is a crime even when not directly procured by the publishing agency.  Yes, that would pass muster.  In fact, there already is one.




Too bad that law doesn't make publishing classified documents a crime.

Quote:

I am not a troll.  I suggest you look up the meaning of the word.  It does not mean "someone who thinks ChuangTzu is wrong".




I was referring to your universal "debate" style of making outrageous claims and telling everyone else that they don't know what they're talking about while ignoring how wrong you are.  One can only come to the conclusion that you know you are wrong and yet persist anyway.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #13574381 - 12/02/10 04:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Sorry, I am not at all sure that the reason they weren't prosecuted is because it wasn't criminal.  I suspect it was a political decision.





The federal government tried to get an injunction against the newspapers publishing the documents.  The supreme court refused to uphold the injunction and allowed the newspapers to publish the documents.  The same federal officials who sought the injunction were the ones who could have prosecuted the newspapers but they didn't.  Because the supreme court specifically allowed the papers' publication.  So you think the supreme court's decision was political?  Care to explain that further?




Prior restraint. 
Quote:



Quote:


Ellsberg was prosecuted but they botched the case with illegal wiretaps and other prosecutorial malfeasance.




Of course he was prosecuted as he should have been.  He's the one who stole the F'n documents.




So you concur that it is stealing.
Quote:

 

Quote:

Do you know what would pass Constitutional muster?  A law that says publishing classified documents is a crime even when not directly procured by the publishing agency.  Yes, that would pass muster.  In fact, there already is one.




Too bad that law doesn't make publishing classified documents a crime.




Oh no?  I quote:

"It made it a crime:

    * To convey information with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the armed forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies. This was punishable by death or by imprisonment for not more than 30 years or both."
Quote:



Quote:

I am not a troll.  I suggest you look up the meaning of the word.  It does not mean "someone who thinks ChuangTzu is wrong".




I was referring to your universal "debate" style of making outrageous claims and telling everyone else that they don't know what they're talking about while ignoring how wrong you are.  One can only come to the conclusion that you know you are wrong and yet persist anyway.




I do not make outrageous claims and I am certainly not making one here.  Did you know that even the current empty pants Justice Department is looking into finding ways to prosecute Assholange?  And he didn't do anything except publish stolen documents.  So before you go accusing me of making outrageous statements you damn well better get a much more grounded notion about just what is and is not outrageous.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Grav]
    #13574414 - 12/02/10 04:57 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
i never said all losses are monetary, did i?




You asked for the profit and I told you.  You didn't seem to be able to understand that there could be non-monetary losses.
Quote:



and it looks like our "diplomatic relations"(that you seem to have deluded yourself into thinking we're profiting from) are NOT secure if they GOT LEAKED.  so when do i get my refund check for the shitty service?




They weren't leaked, they were stolen.

I've been asking myself that exact same thing regarding a refund.  And I've actually paid millions in taxes.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #13574615 - 12/02/10 05:41 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I disagree that Wikileaks is in the benefit of the NWO.

You are correct that they are not a whisteblower site. They are site which posts documents that whistleblowers give them.

Essentially they're just the messenger. There are people in the government who for whatever reason, perhaps they are unhappy with the way things are run, have decided to provide wikileaks with access to normally classified documents.

Wikilaks then releases these documents. In the case of these cables nothing truly earth-shattering was disclosed, at least not yet. But that's okay. Wikileaks's stated goal is not necessarily to release documents that will immediately change the system, but rather because these documents have been leaked in order to scare and destabalize the current system.

Diplomacy thrives on secrecy and backroom deals. Unfortunately that's how most politics gets accomplished. Because so much of politics such as this is secret, The American people, or the people in the country of whichever government is having it's documents leaked, are not normally privy to these things.

Why should this be? Why should we allow the government to keep some things secret? This is our government, by the people, for the people, and of the people, and if they want to keep secrets from the people, well that just ain't cool.

Plus because government keep secrets they have power. When governments have knowledge on another government or group of people it gives said government a certain degree of power over others, especially if they don't know that the "spying" government has such information.

By making these formerly secret documents public, wikileaks is undermining the old system of political secrets which gives politicians and governments power over people, over humanity. By allowing the public to see exactly how their government behaves the public is, at the very least, better able to make decisions on who to elect or not to elect.

This also applies to businesses. Julian Assange has said when it comes to corporate leaks he is not necessarily anti-capitalist but rather anti-corruption. This holds true for his view of governments as well. Basically he wants governments and businesses to be more open, by force and leaking documents if necessary, so that people can see what they are up to and can be held more accountable.

It's not necessarily about destabilizing governments and corporations and all of society. It's about exposing the faults and corruption in those structures so that it is impossible for them to be corrupt. If there is a constant fear of documents getting leaked, governments will (ideally) be forced to deal with other countries and us in a more reasonable and just manner. When you can't keep secrets and you have to be honest and can't hide anything for your own benefit that ultimately benefits the public of the world and humanity as a whole. We want just government and businesses that are using just practices.

He's just trying to clear out the bullshit that's lodged in so many powerful organizations. Imagine if governments and corporations, because they had no other option, began to work for the good of humanity instead of their own selfish goals. Shit would be pretty cool.

Of course there is always disinformation. Wikileaks is just the messenger. They do what they can to corroborate information but if a government is concerted enough I would imagine that they could supply wikileaks with false documents. This is is what I worry about, and if wikileaks publishes these false documents they could lead to misunderstandings among nations just as the real ones do. Who knows if that's actually happening or not though.

If the New World Order is a free, open society in which governments and corporations work for people instead of against them, then I'm all for it. I mean, how much power could a one world government have if it was totally transparent and the general populace of the world could see everything that it is doing. With technology today this is not impossible.

I await to see what becomes of this wikileaks thing, but I have high hopes. Even if Julian Assange is some type of political puppet or whatever, those who have been inspired by what he says (the desire for open government and more freedom around the world) will continue to push for more open government. And even if they don't I believe wikileaks has created a strong enough cultural idea that the idea of open governments and societies will only gain more and more ground. And I really don't see how that is a bad thing.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: halo]
    #13574708 - 12/02/10 06:11 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

WikiLeaks is Disinfomation and Posion!


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Grav]
    #13574856 - 12/02/10 06:47 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> WikiLeaks is Disinfomation and Posion!

The conspiracy theory room is next door.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13574897 - 12/02/10 06:59 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks to wikileaks, er, i mean ickyleaks, a whole new round of laws will come forth censoring internet.  The creator is a cockbite too.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13575039 - 12/02/10 07:26 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Yes.  They are no longer have secret documents.  They are now public documents




now how can the public sector expect to have private document, that's
just silly because they were always public documents they just chose
not to share it with us, regardless, if 2 people know about it, is it
really a secret or is it just more crap they're hiding with their
transparency


Quote:

Not all profit is in the form of dollars.






I really would love to hear this explanation


Quote:

Stealing corporate secrets is stealing.




but government isnt a corporation, there's nothing in the constitution
about corporations making public policy or passing the laws and surely
if a corporation remained in the red for several decades people wouldnt
keep pouring money into it believing that it could one day turn around

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Maverick]
    #13576365 - 12/03/10 03:18 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> Thanks to wikileaks, er, i mean ickyleaks, a whole new round of laws will come forth censoring internet.  The creator is a cockbite too.

That is actually a good point.  There is nothing like thumbing your nose at the government, showing them that they are powerless over something, to motivate them to add draconian regulation to prevent future abuses.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13576555 - 12/03/10 10:55 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

yea i'm sure they're really upset about having an excuse for more power. 

if it wasn't for being their own op, this would be like winning the lottery.  leaks that are only superficially damaging, but significant enough to make a stink over and add new rules.

problem-reaction-solution at it's best.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13576725 - 12/03/10 11:35 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Yes.  They are no longer have secret documents.  They are now public documents




now how can the public sector expect to have private document, that's
just silly because they were always public documents they just chose
not to share it with us, regardless, if 2 people know about it, is it
really a secret or is it just more crap they're hiding with their
transparency


 

How can the government have secrets?  Are you being deliberately obtuse?
Quote:




Quote:

Not all profit is in the form of dollars.






I really would love to hear this explanation.




You're shitting me, right?  I mean I can't believe what I'm hearing from you.  Ever heard of libel?  Alienation of affection?  Sentimental value?  Losses and gains not related to dollars yet actionable in a court of law.  Those are just examples that come immediately to mind.
Quote:




Quote:

Stealing corporate secrets is stealing.




but government isnt a corporation, there's nothing in the constitution
about corporations making public policy or passing the laws and surely
if a corporation remained in the red for several decades people wouldnt
keep pouring money into it believing that it could one day turn around




What has been clearly Constitutionally upheld is that not only can you be jailed for revealing government secrets, you can be executed.  And we have kept pouring money into it  for decades.  Every time we vote we are essentially buying shares.

You seem to forget, Priz, that we are the government.  Unfortunately there is a great glorious percentage of that we that is incredibly stupid.  Don't ever forget, Priz, half the population is of below average intelligence.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13578068 - 12/03/10 04:27 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Are you being deliberately obtuse?





is it that obvious?

Quote:

You're shitting me, right?




would I shit you... you're my favorite turd

I should stay away from the marijuana cigarettes


Quote:

you can be executed.





my mother used remind me of this on occasion




Quote:

You seem to forget, Priz, that we are the government.  Unfortunately there is a great glorious percentage of that we that is incredibly stupid.  Don't ever forget, Priz, half the population is of below average intelligence.





but why must we keep electing them to office

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13582517 - 12/04/10 05:22 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The electorate is lot dumber than the elected.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13584144 - 12/05/10 12:54 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)



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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13586208 - 12/05/10 03:34 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The electorate is lot dumber than the elected.





is that just in the lower 57 states?

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13586339 - 12/05/10 04:01 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

All 57.  But they're our idiots and we must embrace them because, like it or not, they are the smartest morons on the planet.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13587457 - 12/05/10 08:14 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I want to see the no fly list


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: AsAboveSoBelow]
    #13588635 - 12/06/10 01:32 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Opponents of Assange are utilists and ignorant people. To think that basic human rights like right to journalistic freedom and a fair trial are no longer applicable if it brings into jeopardy the state's security is foolishness to me.

VF


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13588839 - 12/06/10 03:45 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Opponents of Assange are utilists and ignorant people. To think that basic human rights like right to journalistic freedom and a fair trial are no longer applicable if it brings into jeopardy the state's security is foolishness to me.

VF




Proponents (that means supporters) of Assange are pedophiles and racist people.  To think that classified documents have anything to do with journalistic freedom and that an individual is above the law because he jeopardizes a state's security is foolishness to me.

FV

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13588948 - 12/06/10 05:21 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

Opponents of Assange are utilists and ignorant people. To think that basic human rights like right to journalistic freedom and a fair trial are no longer applicable if it brings into jeopardy the state's security is foolishness to me.

VF




Proponents (that means supporters) of Assange are pedophiles and racist people.  To think that classified documents have anything to do with journalistic freedom and that an individual is above the law because he jeopardizes a state's security is foolishness to me.

FV




O right, thanks for clarifying that term, for I am far too uneducated to comprehend it on my own.

Opponents of Assange are homosexuals and cross dressers.

VF


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13589067 - 12/06/10 06:51 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

Opponents of Assange are utilists and ignorant people. To think that basic human rights like right to journalistic freedom and a fair trial are no longer applicable if it brings into jeopardy the state's security is foolishness to me.

VF




Proponents (that means supporters) of Assange are pedophiles and racist people.  To think that classified documents have anything to do with journalistic freedom and that an individual is above the law because he jeopardizes a state's security is foolishness to me.

FV




O right, thanks for clarifying that term, for I am far too uneducated to comprehend it on my own.

Opponents of Assange are homosexuals and cross dressers.

VF




Obviously you missed my point.  Calling people names simply because you disagree with their viewpoint is not only immature, but is also pointless.  I thought that perhaps an example, rather than a lecture, might better help you understand the fallacy.  Unfortunately, given your enlightened reply, you are either trolling, or lack the wisdom to think before you lash out.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13590399 - 12/06/10 12:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

Opponents of Assange are utilists and ignorant people. To think that basic human rights like right to journalistic freedom and a fair trial are no longer applicable if it brings into jeopardy the state's security is foolishness to me.

VF




Proponents (that means supporters) of Assange are pedophiles and racist people.  To think that classified documents have anything to do with journalistic freedom and that an individual is above the law because he jeopardizes a state's security is foolishness to me.

FV




O right, thanks for clarifying that term, for I am far too uneducated to comprehend it on my own.

Opponents of Assange are homosexuals and cross dressers.

VF




Obviously you missed my point.  Calling people names simply because you disagree with their viewpoint is not only immature, but is also pointless.  I thought that perhaps an example, rather than a lecture, might better help you understand the fallacy.  Unfortunately, given your enlightened reply, you are either trolling, or lack the wisdom to think before you lash out.



Well no, in fact I got your point, but it was a rather weak one. I think you may have missed my point.

Opponents of Assange are Utilists. FACT. Utilists are in my opinion ignorant people, because they disregard the philosophy of ethics, and only care for the end result.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13591621 - 12/06/10 04:49 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

So apparently Assange has released a so called " doomsday" file who's password would be revealed to the world if he would happen to be killed or arrested. I wonder what could be in there... Its pretty massive.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: xpl0de]
    #13591740 - 12/06/10 05:15 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

xpl0de said:
So apparently Assange has released a so called " doomsday" file who's password would be revealed to the world if he would happen to be killed or arrested. I wonder what could be in there... Its pretty massive.




It's a rickroll!

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #13591790 - 12/06/10 05:26 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> It's a rickroll!

Now, that would be funny.  Can you imagine...  :rofl:


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13592342 - 12/06/10 06:52 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> It's a rickroll!

Now, that would be funny.  Can you imagine...  :rofl:




that would be pretty fucking hilarious.

latest news is the guy who created the website is going to turn himself in (on unrelated sexual assault charges or something); im not sure where the website stands independently of him, but that would suck for it to go down. I don't agree that opponents can be stereotyped into any classification, or the same of proponents. I do like the idea that ideas and information should not be hidden from citizens who want access to them. We live in a great age where these are things we enjoy (even if illegally). But its completely understandable why some citizens would totally oppose this kind of information being available to the public.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Mickalopagus]
    #13592488 - 12/06/10 07:16 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> I do like the idea that ideas and information should not be hidden from citizens who want access to them.

One of the latest bits that IkiLeaks has published is a list created by various government officials (including ambassadors in other countries) that lists the things that terrorists might attack that would be most harmful to the US.  I fail to see how a 'target list' being available to the public helps anybody, other than those that wish to do harm to the US.

Making it a bit more personal, how do you like the idea of your bank account numbers being available to any citizen that wants access to them?  Not a bad idea to sell those numbers to the Nigerian hackers for a cut of the profits they make when they drain your account... or your parents account... or your grandparents account.

Some information is not meant to be public.  Who is IkiLeaks to decide what information should, or should not be published?


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13592530 - 12/06/10 07:24 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I think there is a large disparity between my bank account numbers, which offer a stranger access to my finances, and a list of targets that terrorists might have an interest in attacking, which offers no financial incentive to anybody.

What do you think the potential consequences could be for this type of information being available to the public? Personally I would like to know if my city was going to be targeted for terrorist assault.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13592558 - 12/06/10 07:29 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Who is IkiLeaks to decide what information should, or should not be published?




I think hes just a human with the belief that all people have a right to be informed. I'd be surprised for you to tell me Suess that you have no interest in all the information withheld by the government that has amassed over the years.. if so, I applaud you for your loyalty; I want to be able to have access to it all if I so choose.


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notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Mickalopagus]
    #13593694 - 12/06/10 11:03 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Im gonna need a link to those files ASAP which one of you shroomers knows where you could actually download the info

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13594187 - 12/07/10 01:20 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
One of the latest bits that IkiLeaks has published is a list created by various government officials (including ambassadors in other countries) that lists the things that terrorists might attack that would be most harmful to the US.  I fail to see how a 'target list' being available to the public helps anybody, other than those that wish to do harm to the US.





One of the repercussions of this event is that the government has said they are going to increase security to decrease the risk of this kind of thing happening again.  They may or may not be being truthful about that but when you think what the security situation was before the leaks, you have to wonder how the information didn't get out before (apparently millions of government employees had access to this data even though they had absolutely no professional interest in it).  You would see that as positive wouldn't you?  I would.

As for this target list, certainly the targets are now going to redouble their efforts to reduce their exposure and reduce the likelihood of their being attacked won't they?  I haven't seen the list but I bet everything on it is pretty damn obvious.  Terrorists aren't completely without intelligence, despite what you might extrapolate from the ones who have been recently caught...

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #13594316 - 12/07/10 02:37 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
One of the latest bits that IkiLeaks has published is a list created by various government officials (including ambassadors in other countries) that lists the things that terrorists might attack that would be most harmful to the US.  I fail to see how a 'target list' being available to the public helps anybody, other than those that wish to do harm to the US.





One of the repercussions of this event is that the government has said they are going to increase security to decrease the risk of this kind of thing happening again.  They may or may not be being truthful about that but when you think what the security situation was before the leaks, you have to wonder how the information didn't get out before (apparently millions of government employees had access to this data even though they had absolutely no professional interest in it).  You would see that as positive wouldn't you?  I would.

As for this target list, certainly the targets are now going to redouble their efforts to reduce their exposure and reduce the likelihood of their being attacked won't they?  I haven't seen the list but I bet everything on it is pretty damn obvious.  Terrorists aren't completely without intelligence, despite what you might extrapolate from the ones who have been recently caught...



It wasn't actually. It ranged from obvious things, like oil pipelines, to foreign COBALT mines, and a snake poison antidote factory in australia :shrug:


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Mickalopagus] * 1
    #13594346 - 12/07/10 03:01 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I think there is a large disparity between my bank account numbers, which offer a stranger access to my finances, and a list of targets that terrorists might have an interest in attacking, which offers no financial incentive to anybody.




There is no difference what so ever.  Both are information, to which you claim the public should have full access.  Fear of losing your money or fear of losing your property, both work for terrorists just the same.  I'm guessing the terrorists would be just as interested in your bank account as they would be in killing you.

Quote:

What do you think the potential consequences could be for this type of information being available to the public? Personally I would like to know if my city was going to be targeted for terrorist assault.




They aren't listing cities, they are listing things... like power plants and vaccine producing factories, and hospitals, and rail road switches... that sort of thing.  Do you really want the terrorists to know what bits of infrastructure the US values most?


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13594447 - 12/07/10 04:30 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Assange has been Arrested.
RELEASE THE DOOMSDAY LEAKS.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13594493 - 12/07/10 05:03 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I think he turned himself in.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #13594498 - 12/07/10 05:07 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
I think he turned himself in.



doesn't mean he wasn't arrested :tard:


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13594826 - 12/07/10 08:42 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

he's just following the script

:bushtaliban:

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Grav]
    #13594842 - 12/07/10 08:49 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> he's just following the script

Oh wise and omnipotent master, what is the remainder of the script so that we may verify your accuracy?  :wink:


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13594843 - 12/07/10 08:49 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

I think there is a large disparity between my bank account numbers, which offer a stranger access to my finances, and a list of targets that terrorists might have an interest in attacking, which offers no financial incentive to anybody.




There is no difference what so ever. 




of course there is.  one deals with a specific man or woman's well-being.  and one does not.  you can't just lump everything together and say 'TERRISTS could use it'

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Grav]
    #13594881 - 12/07/10 09:10 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

I think there is a large disparity between my bank account numbers, which offer a stranger access to my finances, and a list of targets that terrorists might have an interest in attacking, which offers no financial incentive to anybody.




There is no difference what so ever. 




of course there is.  one deals with a specific man or woman's well-being.  and one does not.  you can't just lump everything together and say 'TERRISTS could use it'



also, fuck it if terrorists can use it. If my FREEDOM and RIGHTS become compromised, that's when the terrorists have won.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13594886 - 12/07/10 09:12 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

A swiss bank, Paypal, Mastercard and now VISA have disabled donation payments to Wikileaks. We should seriously consider condemnig and boycotting all of them. It's under no circumstances acceptable that VISA, MASTERCARD, PAYPAL or any bank...... decide what we can or not do with it our money. VISA, MASTERCARD, PAYPAL, banks or any financial institutions benefit from our money and cashflow, they have no right to limit us as to what we decide to do with our money.
Government officials openly threatening Julian Assange instead of immediately resigning from their charges when held accountable, financial institutions deciding what to do with our money, what's next? Sweden giving Assange a oneway ticket to Guantanamo?


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13594903 - 12/07/10 09:18 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> he's just following the script

Oh wise and omnipotent master, what is the remainder of the script so that we may verify your accuracy?  :wink:



Quote:

Seuss said:
> he's just following the script

Oh wise and omnipotent master, what is the remainder of the script so that we may verify your accuracy?  :wink:




http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/12/shield/

this, for starters.  they needed to sacrifice smaller secrets to help protect the big ones.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13595394 - 12/07/10 11:30 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
It's under no circumstances acceptable that VISA, MASTERCARD, PAYPAL or any bank...... decide what we can or not do with it our money. VISA, MASTERCARD, PAYPAL, banks or any financial institutions benefit from our money and cashflow, they have no right to limit us as to what we decide to do with our money.





They haven't decided what you can do with your money.

They've merely decided not to help you do it.


--------------------
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13595445 - 12/07/10 11:45 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
We should seriously consider condemnig and boycotting all of them.




Sure, do as you like.

Quote:

It's under no circumstances acceptable that VISA, MASTERCARD, PAYPAL or any bank...... decide what we can or not do with it our money. VISA, MASTERCARD, PAYPAL, banks or any financial institutions benefit from our money and cashflow, they have no right to limit us as to what we decide to do with our money.




They are free to choose their customers as they wish...

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #13595451 - 12/07/10 11:46 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
It's under no circumstances acceptable that VISA, MASTERCARD, PAYPAL or any bank...... decide what we can or not do with it our money. VISA, MASTERCARD, PAYPAL, banks or any financial institutions benefit from our money and cashflow, they have no right to limit us as to what we decide to do with our money.





They haven't decided what you can do with your money.

They've merely decided not to help you do it.



nonsense. We as civilians have become dependant on chiral (grammar nazi's ATTACK!)
money, how else are we to arrange for our money to reach Assange? They should admit this responsibility and not take it as lightly as they have shown to have done. Seeing as how banks and credit card companies are dependant on OUR money, they should in turn NOT refuse us service under any LEGAL circumstance. And to donate money to Julian Assange is most certainly not an illegal act.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13595487 - 12/07/10 11:54 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
They should admit this responsibility and not take it as lightly as they have shown to have done. Seeing as how banks and credit card companies are dependant on OUR money, they should in turn NOT refuse us service under any LEGAL circumstance. And to donate money to Julian Assange is most certainly not an illegal act.




Sure, you can make this logical argument to them if you'd like.  And you are free to not support their business if you like as well, as you've suggested.  What more do you want?

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #13595510 - 12/07/10 11:58 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
They should admit this responsibility and not take it as lightly as they have shown to have done. Seeing as how banks and credit card companies are dependant on OUR money, they should in turn NOT refuse us service under any LEGAL circumstance. And to donate money to Julian Assange is most certainly not an illegal act.




Sure, you can make this logical argument to them if you'd like.  And you are free to not support their business if you like as well, as you've suggested.  What more do you want?



I want it to be illegal for a financial company to deny service on political grounds.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13595528 - 12/07/10 12:02 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
I want it to be illegal for a financial company to deny service on political grounds.




So you want the state to apply force or threat of force to control the dealings of private individuals to suit your wishes?

Edit: I heard that in the Netherlands, businesses open to the public are generally not allowed to deny service to customers as they see fit.  I would see this as an egregious affront to my personal liberties.  In the US, such a thing wouldn't fly.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #13595594 - 12/07/10 12:14 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
I want it to be illegal for a financial company to deny service on political grounds.




So you want the state to apply force or threat of force to control the dealings of private individuals to suit your wishes?

Edit: I heard that in the Netherlands, businesses open to the public are generally not allowed to deny service to customers as they see fit.  I would see this as an egregious affront to my personal liberties.  In the US, such a thing wouldn't fly.



The state is already applying threat or force to control the dealings of private individuals to suit it's own wishes. Do you really think pay pall gives a flying fuck about this whole Wikileaks affair? It's obvious to me that the American government have pressured PayPal to not forward donations, and the Swiss bank in question to freeze his funds.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13595605 - 12/07/10 12:16 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
The state is already applying threat or force to control the dealings of private individuals to suit it's own wishes. Do you really think pay pall gives a flying fuck about this whole Wikileaks affair? It's obvious to me that the American government have pressured PayPal to not forward donations, and the Swiss bank in question to freeze his funds.




So it's OK when you agree with it, but it's not when you don't?

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OfflineVisionaryFlicker
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #13595613 - 12/07/10 12:17 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
The state is already applying threat or force to control the dealings of private individuals to suit it's own wishes. Do you really think pay pall gives a flying fuck about this whole Wikileaks affair? It's obvious to me that the American government have pressured PayPal to not forward donations, and the Swiss bank in question to freeze his funds.




So it's OK when you agree with it, but it's not when you don't?



No, it's not OK when political wishes are being met. It IS ok when political issues are being disregarded.


--------------------
l'enfer c'est les autres

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13595730 - 12/07/10 12:43 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
No, it's not OK when political wishes are being met. It IS ok when political issues are being disregarded.




It's a political issue in either case.  Either in your favor or in someone else's.  It's your political wish that the state should have the right to tell private businesses how to conduct themselves.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #13595758 - 12/07/10 12:52 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
No, it's not OK when political wishes are being met. It IS ok when political issues are being disregarded.




It's a political issue in either case.  Either in your favor or in someone else's.  It's your political wish that the state should have the right to tell private businesses how to conduct themselves.



Wrong. I think the state should NOT interfere. Would the state not have interfered, paypall and the swiss bank would never have respectively denied donations and frozen funds.

Adopt another view when yours is disproven man, give it up :mad:


--------------------
l'enfer c'est les autres

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13595787 - 12/07/10 12:59 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

:confused:

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OfflineMickalopagus
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13595868 - 12/07/10 01:19 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

I think there is a large disparity between my bank account numbers, which offer a stranger access to my finances, and a list of targets that terrorists might have an interest in attacking, which offers no financial incentive to anybody.




There is no difference what so ever.  Both are information, to which you claim the public should have full access.  Fear of losing your money or fear of losing your property, both work for terrorists just the same.  I'm guessing the terrorists would be just as interested in your bank account as they would be in killing you.

Quote:

What do you think the potential consequences could be for this type of information being available to the public? Personally I would like to know if my city was going to be targeted for terrorist assault.




They aren't listing cities, they are listing things... like power plants and vaccine producing factories, and hospitals, and rail road switches... that sort of thing.  Do you really want the terrorists to know what bits of infrastructure the US values most?




Like I said Suess, I can absolutely identify with the opposing side of the argument. Personally, I believe that every human being has a right to be informed, and support government transparency.

And for the record, anyone interested in hacking into the contents of my savings account ($5.41, the .41 is from years of hard earned interest), is not a terrorist, but a moron :tongue:


--------------------
notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: VisionaryFlicker]
    #13596036 - 12/07/10 01:47 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

VisionaryFlicker said:
It's under no circumstances acceptable that VISA, MASTERCARD, PAYPAL or any bank...... decide what we can or not do with it our money. VISA, MASTERCARD, PAYPAL, banks or any financial institutions benefit from our money and cashflow, they have no right to limit us as to what we decide to do with our money.





They haven't decided what you can do with your money.

They've merely decided not to help you do it.



nonsense. We as civilians have become dependant on chiral (grammar nazi's ATTACK!)
money, how else are we to arrange for our money to reach Assange? They should admit this responsibility and not take it as lightly as they have shown to have done. Seeing as how banks and credit card companies are dependant on OUR money, they should in turn NOT refuse us service under any LEGAL circumstance. And to donate money to Julian Assange is most certainly not an illegal act.



My what a merry little fascist you are telling private companies how they must serve you.  Next you'll stomp your widdle footies and demand a nappy.

For every dribbling dipshit who abhors the banks' and providers' actions there are dozens if not scores or hundreds who are saying, "It's about fucking time you lame ass motherfucking morons!"

Send me your account and soc sec numbers.  I'll get it to the little inmate gets it.  Most of it.  Some of it.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Mickalopagus]
    #13596048 - 12/07/10 01:49 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mick said:


And for the record, anyone interested in hacking into the contents of my savings account ($5.41, the .41 is from years of hard earned interest), is not a terrorist, but a moron :tongue:



I want your soc sec # so I can get credit cards and take loans out that will indebt you for the rest of your life.  You can "keep the change."


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Offlinelucydforme
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13614021 - 12/10/10 05:45 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

1. They used the name most likely for publicity, as there are wiki's for practically everything nowadays, and the publicity helped them to appeal to the public better.

2) I would have to disagree, Wikileaks is a whistle blower still, as they've raised the eyebrows of the general public to actually try and look into what their government has been doing. While this isn't exactly good always, it is allowing the ones who question their government's motives to show proof of how their government's changes should be conducted. The U.S. for example isn't following its previous leaders in the whole: "Democracy is the government of the people, by the people, for the people." Abraham Lincoln

3) I doubt wikileaks will suffer much from the release of said documents, as for Assange, he will be taking the majority of the punching force from the governments to which he released "sensitive" information about. Honestly, I doubt he will have trouble finding somewhere to lay low, as those who value free opinion tend to be those who shelter those in need. As for Assange being "removed", it is doubtful that would land a killing blow to wikileaks, if not make him a martyr in the process too. Wikileaks reminds me somewhat of a hydra, remove one head, and two more will replace it, similar to Assange, he is just a figure to which people relate an organization, removing him does not remove the organization.

Overall, I must say that wikileaks has done a fair justice, even if i don't agree with publishing national secrets. They have forced the eyes of the public open to what their governments have been wrongfully doing in secret. What would be to see wikileaks publish would be what our governments have been doing properly behind closed doors, because you can not simply release the bad without releasing some good, otherwise you'll be discredited most likely.


--------------------
Funny story, this whole "world" that we know everything about, well, that's all good and well, but we know nothing about the rest of that vast everything we call the universe.

Everything I say is heresay. All fiction for a fictional character.
Rule yourself, let no one else rule you. Down with government, and up with responsibility.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: lucydforme]
    #13616053 - 12/11/10 02:53 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I think everybody should know as much as possible about everything. Wikileaks helps.

Now whether or not i agree with the idea that some bastard forcibly secured whatever land from our collective planet at some time long before me, created a cultural and legal system that made it inapproriate for me to secure said land now by the same means from his descendants.

raped the resources from said land, (which actually is only borrowed from us all as a collective) and invested in the legal system that hires the mercenaries that protects said land from me with my own taxes. Then sells the resources back to me in some shithouse form that through the propegation of thier bulshit culture helps me get laid (yes they spinnin'...not really) in return for imaginary credits that i earn from my exploitation.

whether or not i support wikileaks giving that info away to everybody in the know world rather than working under the flag of some espionage team of some rival government or terrorist organisation...well i'm not sure.

The dude shoulda moved to ecuador when he had the change...it just makes sense...why live in a country that is gonna hand you over? i mean i'm sure even if a chinese espionage agent had the chance he'd move to a country i.e china where he'd be protected  if peeps were suss on him.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: husk]
    #13616151 - 12/11/10 04:32 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> I think everybody should know as much as possible about everything

So you think it is a good thing for everybody to know as much as possible about making nuclear weapons, or biological weapons such as anthrax, or chemical weapons such as VX nerve gas?


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13616631 - 12/11/10 09:44 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I think I should know his name, his mother's maiden name and his bank account and social security numbers.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13616722 - 12/11/10 10:12 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> I think everybody should know as much as possible about everything

So you think it is a good thing for everybody to know as much as possible about making nuclear weapons, or biological weapons such as anthrax, or chemical weapons such as VX nerve gas?




There's a huge difference between secret weapons technology info and that of diplomatic incidents, secret political deal-making, etc. etc.  and they should be viewed as different types of information.  We can't just lump everything our government does into a classification as sensitive as nuclear missile codes.

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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13617171 - 12/11/10 12:34 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I think I should know his name, his mother's maiden name and his bank account and social security numbers.




I feel if the U.S. Government can prove Assange commited a crime they should convict him. I don't believe comparing the release of government information, and a citizens private information are comparable to one another. Apples&organes


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Simplicitry]
    #13617202 - 12/11/10 12:45 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Citizens have a right to privacy. The goverment should not. A lack of transparency is a huge problem. Obviously not everything can be released (wepons technology is an obvious example), but they hide far to much, and abuse the right to do so. That athority needs to be put back in check


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Simplicitry]
    #13617275 - 12/11/10 01:10 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I think I should know his name, his mother's maiden name and his bank account and social security numbers.




I feel if the U.S. Government can prove Assange commited a crime they should convict him. I don't believe comparing the release of government information, and a citizens private information are comparable to one another. Apples&organes




Well, aside from the fact that wikileaks already released soldiers' soc sec numbers what we have here is a difference of opinion.  My point, which only a small handful have seemed to grasp, is that it doesn't matter what you think since I have decided that I should have them.  Just like it didn't matter to wikileaks or their enablers what the governments wanted when they decided they knew better what should be public.  So, just like them, I am usurping your right to decide what you can keep private. 

I also want access to all of your e-mails and facebook musings as well as transcripts of any conversations you may have had regarding any of your bosses, teachers, friends and family.  Because I have decided they should be public.  Not you or anyone's elected representative, ME!, all powerful and wise ZIG!

Bow now.


--------------------

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Simplicitry]
    #13617285 - 12/11/10 01:14 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Citizens have a right to privacy. The goverment should not. A lack of transparency is a huge problem. Obviously not everything can be released (wepons technology is an obvious example), but they hide far to much, and abuse the right to do so. That athority needs to be put back in check




No.  There is not a fucking nation in the history of the planet that does or has ever conducted diplomacy in the open.  Nor any business entity.  I think to expect such bespeaks an intellect on the order of the third grade.

The authority vests in our representatives, duly elected by the people, and their assigns to determine what negotiations should be confidential.  Not random jackasses.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13617457 - 12/11/10 01:54 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
No.  There is not a fucking nation in the history of the planet that does or has ever conducted diplomacy in the open.



so what? that doesn't make it ideal or even a good option.

Quote:

The authority vests in our representatives, duly elected by the people, and their assigns to determine what negotiations should be confidential.



that's a nice fairytale.  unfortunately massive corruption exists, and we can't always wait and pray that someone honest gets voted in every few years.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Grav]
    #13617505 - 12/11/10 02:06 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
No.  There is not a fucking nation in the history of the planet that does or has ever conducted diplomacy in the open.



so what? that doesn't make it ideal or even a good option.




It's a horrible option for reasons that have been hammered over and over again
Quote:



Quote:

The authority vests in our representatives, duly elected by the people, and their assigns to determine what negotiations should be confidential.



that's a nice fairytale.  unfortunately massive corruption exists, and we can't always wait and pray that someone honest gets voted in every few years.




What massive corruption?  That's a fairy tale of your own.  Regardless, we get the government we elect.  When you say "we" you most certainly can not count either myself or most of the American people as members.  WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE THAT YOU SHOULD DECIDE?  Nobody ever elected you to anything.  Nor did anyone ever elect Bradley Manning or Julian Assange to anything.  Fucking little fascists trying to impose their benighted world view on the rest of us.


--------------------

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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13618373 - 12/11/10 05:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Simplicitry said:
I feel if the U.S. Government can prove Assange commit ed a crime they should convict him. I don't believe comparing the release of government information, and a citizens private information are comparable to one another. Apples&oranges




Well, aside from the fact that wikileaks already released soldiers' soc sec numbers what we have here is a difference of opinion.  My point, which only a small handful have seemed to grasp, is that it doesn't matter what you think since I have decided that I should have them.  Just like it didn't matter to wikileaks or their enablers what the governments wanted when they decided they knew better what should be public.  So, just like them, I am usurping your right to decide what you can keep private. 

I also want access to all of your e-mails and facebook musings as well as transcripts of any conversations you may have had regarding any of your bosses, teachers, friends and family.  Because I have decided they should be public.  Not you or anyone's elected representative, ME!, all powerful and wise ZIG!

Bow now.




I Was in the military, and worked for the DOD as a civilian. I understand the need for confidential information.  I just don't believe that the government should be able to classify things that can't legitimately be shown to endanger our nation, and they do all the time. I just don't believe in giving them to much power without oversight.

Do you really trust those lying sacks of scum to tell you what they're supposed to and censor what may harm you without any accountability?  I don't.  Its not that I like Assange, but if he committed crime then where's the warrant?

I still stand by the statement that comparing my right to privacy to the the governments not disclosing information to the public it is serving is faulty. I'm not implying that they shouldn't be able to classify anything. I'm just saying that there should have to be cause, and if cause can't be shown for covering up (the only legitimate cause should be National security). Politician should and do have their right to privacy in there private life. There public service should be just that public within the confines above anything beyond is deceitful


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

Edited by Simplicitry (12/11/10 06:38 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Simplicitry] * 1
    #13618518 - 12/11/10 06:23 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Whether or not they are lying sacks of scum (and after all, who isn't?) is irrelevant.  They are our lying sacks of scum that we elected to make those decisions.  And not every confidential piece of information has to be about national security.  I have asked several times, do you think any company would want all of its deliberations and discussions open to public view?  Any person?  Any other nation?


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #13618524 - 12/11/10 06:25 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Fucking little fascists trying to impose their benighted world view on the rest of us.




That stick up your ass seems to be metastasizing.  Maybe you should get it checked out...

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #13618533 - 12/11/10 06:25 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Wanna give me a colonoscopy?


--------------------

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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13618645 - 12/11/10 06:42 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Whether or not they are lying sacks of scum (and after all, who isn't?) is irrelevant.  They are our lying sacks of scum that we elected to make those decisions.  And not every confidential piece of information has to be about national security.  I have asked several times, do you think any company would want all of its deliberations and discussions open to public view?  Any person?  Any other nation?




Again I think your fallacy is trying to compare a private company to a government that is suppsed to be elected to serve the public. There are many things that a private company can legally do that the Government is not given authority to do by the Consitution. Apples & Oranges Zap

I still stand by the statement that comparing my right to privacy to the the governments not disclosing information to the public it is serving is faulty. I'm not implying that they shouldn't be able to classify anything. I'm just saying that there should have to be cause, and if cause can't be shown for covering up (the only legitimate cause should be National security)then the person responisble for it should be punished. Politician should and do have their right to privacy in their private life. Their public service should be just that public within the confines above anything beyond is deceitful


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Simplicitry]
    #13618705 - 12/11/10 06:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Whether or not they are lying sacks of scum (and after all, who isn't?) is irrelevant.  They are our lying sacks of scum that we elected to make those decisions.  And not every confidential piece of information has to be about national security.  I have asked several times, do you think any company would want all of its deliberations and discussions open to public view?  Any person?  Any other nation?




Again I think your fallacy is trying to compare a private company to a government that is suppsed to be elected to serve the public. There are many things that a private company can legally do that the Government is not given authority to do by the Consitution. Apples & Oranges Zap




Actually the government is allowed to keep more things secret than companies are.  And you.  So, if you don't like apples and oranges, eat grapes.  Did you know that the Constitutionality argument has exactly zero weight here?  No one is questioning whether the government can Constitutionally keep diplomatic secrets.  Not even the stupidest commentator I have read yet has gone anywhere near that argument.  And I've seen some real fucking morons weigh in.
Quote:



I still stand by the statement that comparing my right to privacy to the the governments not disclosing information to the public it is serving is faulty. I'm not implying that they shouldn't be able to classify anything. I'm just saying that there should have to be cause, and if cause can't be shown for covering up (the only legitimate cause should be National security)then the person responisble for it should be punished. Politician should and do have their right to privacy in there private life. There public service should be just that public within the confines above anything beyond is deceitful




Yes, fine.  What does that have to do with this?  Not one motherfucking thing.  My question to you, and one of the main ones regarding personal information, is who authorized Julian Assange or Bradley Manning or even you to make that decision?  Nobody.  I have just as much authority to demand your private information as they and you do to demand government information.  And no, national security is NOT the only criteria.  Not one other nation in the world or the history of the world has ever conducted diplomacy completely in the public view.  NOT ONE.  It is an intensely idiotic idea.


--------------------

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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13618877 - 12/11/10 08:05 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Actually the government is allowed to keep more things secret than companies are.  And you.  So, if you don't like apples and oranges, eat grapes.  Did you know that the Constitutionality argument has exactly zero weight here?  No one is questioning whether the government can Constitutionally keep diplomatic secrets.  Not even the stupidest commentator I have read yet has gone anywhere near that argument.  And I've seen some real fucking morons weigh in.




I didn't reference the Constitution and say that they didn't have the right to classify information. I referenced it because it illustrates that the Government and a private entity are Governed by different laws. What applies to the private company does not apply to the government and vice versa so your comparison is stupid. And if you want to let the government decide what you get to know and what you don't then your entitled to your opinion, but I would rather think for myself.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Yes, fine.  What does that have to do with this?  Not one motherfucking thing.  My question to you, and one of the main ones regarding personal information, is who authorized Julian Assange or Bradley Manning or even you to make that decision?  Nobody.  I have just as much authority to demand your private information as they and you do to demand government information.  And no, national security is NOT the only criteria.  Not one other nation in the world or the history of the world has ever conducted diplomacy completely in the public view.  NOT ONE.  It is an intensely idiotic idea.




I don't like Assange. I'm guessing he's a real asshole, but as I asked you before and you ignored, if he committed a crime then where's the warrant? (and we both know I'm not talking about the rape charges). I don't compare the Constitution to other peoples shitty Governments. I'm not saying that nothing should be confidential, but if you think that you benefit from a lack of transparency from your government with no oversight or consequences then I think you should rethink what is intensely idiotic


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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13619091 - 12/11/10 08:54 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

And oh yea, even thought I resent any danger Assange may cause for my American Brethren who are fight our enemies. I also relish in watching the leftist administration get embarrassed. They are no good for this country, our founding principals, or the Constitution. Anything that embarrasses them or exposes their corruption is good with me. That's just my personal opinion about it so it only matters to me


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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Simplicitry]
    #13620247 - 12/12/10 06:35 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> I'm just saying that there should have to be cause, and if cause

This is difficult.  Information that may seem trivial and unworthy of classification in one compartment, when mixed with information in other compartments has the potential to paint a 'big picture' that should be classified.  I would prefer the government err on the side of keeping too much classified rather than too little.  The only gripe I have is when 'national security' is used to cover up mistakes or abuses that would otherwise result in public outrage or prosecution.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13620298 - 12/12/10 07:15 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
The only gripe I have is when 'national security' is used to cover up mistakes or abuses that would otherwise result in public outrage or prosecution.




I would think that their should at least some kind of independent mechanism that would expose abuses of slassifying information without due cause. Maybe a panel of people with top secret security clearance that wouldcomb over confidential information and would receive monatry bonuses for uncovering government abuses in hiding information. Maybe there's another answer. I just know that blind trust, and no over sight is not the answer


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Simplicitry]
    #13620471 - 12/12/10 08:52 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
The only gripe I have is when 'national security' is used to cover up mistakes or abuses that would otherwise result in public outrage or prosecution.




I would think that their should at least some kind of independent mechanism that would expose abuses of slassifying information without due cause. Maybe a panel of people with top secret security clearance that wouldcomb over confidential information and would receive monatry bonuses for uncovering government abuses in hiding information. Maybe there's another answer. I just know that blind trust, and no over sight is not the answer



There is.  It is called the judiciary.  It rules on things like this all the time.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Simplicitry]
    #13620879 - 12/12/10 11:20 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> Maybe a panel of people with top secret security clearance that would comb over confidential information

That defeats the purpose of compartmentalization, and ends up inviting situations such as the current issue with IkiLeaks.  It also gets back to the question of who decides?  Grav thinks he should be the one deciding what should remain confidential and what should not, but I do not believe he is qualified.  Who are either of us to make these decisions?


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13627591 - 12/13/10 05:23 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> I think everybody should know as much as possible about everything

So you think it is a good thing for everybody to know as much as possible about making nuclear weapons, or biological weapons such as anthrax, or chemical weapons such as VX nerve gas?




how many scientists capable of making such things have ever actually used them personally????

Albert Einstein may have made the atomic bomb possible but i doubt he would have the heart to use it.

A greater understanding of the enviroment, the causes of war, the results from war, the nature of mind, the geo-political situation and what plans for the future your government has, i'd say has to be a good thing.

The Truth has value and if everyone and everything were exposed we might be forced to be truely civilised.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: husk]
    #13630021 - 12/14/10 03:57 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> how many scientists capable of making such things have ever actually used them personally????

There was a cult in Japan a while back that made sarin nerve gas and released it on the Tokyo subway.  There was another cult in the US a while back that sprayed salad bars in the PNW with biological weapons.  It doesn't even take a scientist if the "recipes" are published.

> Albert Einstein may have made the atomic bomb possible

The only thing Albert Einstein had to do with the atomic bombs was writing a letter to the President of the US warning him of the possibilities of the enemies developing such a weapon before the US.

> The Truth has value and if everyone and everything were exposed we might be forced to be truely civilised.

There are crazy people in the world that don't care about being civilized.  Not everybody is good at heart.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13630780 - 12/14/10 10:05 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

It would be a wonderful utopia if all nations were so open (not really, but I'll play).  Unfortunately NONE OF THEM ARE, a fact ignored by the great unwashed defenders of this crap.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13632895 - 12/14/10 05:19 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Seuss,

Today I heard news that a similar site to WikiLeaks, OpenLeaks, will be starting.

Are you going to make a thread with such great word play about that one too?


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: WScott]
    #13632942 - 12/14/10 05:28 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> Are you going to make a thread with such great word play about that one too?

Nope.  Actually, OpenLeaks is a much more apropos name.  If WikiLeaks were actually a Wiki, then I wouldn't have an issue with the name.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13633010 - 12/14/10 05:39 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

:thumbup: :smirk:

Though, while a 'Wiki', defined as "a Web site that allows collaborative editing of its content and structure by its users.", is not an entirely accurate way in describing WikiLeaks, there is a collaborative effort in the submission of documents; not only that but one could possibly argue that there is at least a minimal sort of collaborative editing process that happens as well, but obviously not on the same level as 'Pedia (yet?).


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13633481 - 12/14/10 07:09 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> I think everybody should know as much as possible about everything

So you think it is a good thing for everybody to know as much as possible about making nuclear weapons, or biological weapons such as anthrax, or chemical weapons such as VX nerve gas?





Absolutely.

Are you a scared little pussy?


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Simms]
    #13633594 - 12/14/10 07:28 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> Are you a scared little pussy?

I've been warning people for trolling and personalisms, and banning people that ignore the warnings.  This is not OTD.  If you are incapable of mature discussion or debate, then you will be removed from this forum.

If you would read above, I cited two cases where cults used biological weapons to attack the public causing mass death and sickness.  There is no reason why the general public needs to know how to create weapons of mass destruction, especially weapons that are trivial to create.  I'm curious why you believe such knowledge, in the hands of everybody, including crazy people, is somehow beneficial.  However, if you cannot answer in a mature manner, you would do well not to answer at all.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13633625 - 12/14/10 07:33 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Apparently he thinks he could survive without protection.  I suspect that me and some of my henchmen could dissuade him of that notion in about 30 seconds.  I would consider it a valuable part of his education.  Do you think I should I charge tuition fee for this service?


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13633630 - 12/14/10 07:34 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:


If you would read above, I cited two cases where cults used biological weapons to attack the public causing mass death and sickness.  There is no reason why the general public needs to know how to create weapons of mass destruction, especially weapons that are trivial to create.  I'm curious why you believe such knowledge, in the hands of everybody, including crazy people, is somehow beneficial.  However, if you cannot answer in a mature manner, you would do well not to answer at all.




That is your opinion.

I believe that everybody should be able to know everything. Although that, eventually would create the exact situation we have now: people taking control with guns, manipulating, displacing whole regions and occupiying regions -- just like now. (Hiroshima, Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan + all the little conflicts between nationalities/countries and terrorist groups, that are there with a reason -- whose to say who is right?)
US wanted to attack Iran because of their nuclear program. Did they have any right to decide? They just acted powerfully, not righteusly. When some terrorist bombings occur, they are attack to the nation, nation is seen as a country, and country is seen as a threat, people who live in that country are agreeing to share beliefs with their leaders, therefore they are a threat.

So I truly do not see how this is different from now. Those who get the knowledge first, tend to hold on to it and protect it, they decide who are the bad guys.

The other option would be that a lot of people, maybe even me, would be killed off, and I am actually fine with that. Let peace come. Just let go. There are too many of us anyway, what made you so special that you should be living?


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Edited by Simms (12/14/10 07:40 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Simms]
    #13633666 - 12/14/10 07:41 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Simms said:

That is your opinion.

I believe that everybody should be able to know everything.




Please post your real name, soc sec # and bank accounts.  Also I would like to know everything you have ever said to anyone about your boss, teachers, parents, relatives, friends and everybody else.  And tell us all about that episode with the dog and all your browsing habits.

Phony.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13633684 - 12/14/10 07:45 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I wouldn't be needing a social number or a bank account if people actually had the freedom to know.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Simms]
    #13633753 - 12/14/10 07:59 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> That is your opinion.

Yes, discussion and debate are usually centered around differing opinions.  Differing opinions are good.  Trolling somebody because their opinion is different than yours is what I don't want to see.

> US wanted to attack Iran because of their nuclear program. Did they have any right to decide?

First, there is no evidence that the US wanted to attack Iran.  If you believe the stuff put out by ikiLeaks, other countries (Saudi Arabia, Israel, etc) were begging the US to attack Iran and the US refrained.

Second, the US (through the UN) does have a right to monitor, and if necessary limit, Iran's development of nuclear technology.  Iran is a signor of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and is obligated by the treaty.  It is their violation of the treaty that has caused problems with the international community, not their development of peaceful nuclear technology.

> There are too many of us anyway, what made you so special that you should be living?

What made you so special to decide that I should not be living?  :smile:


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Simms]
    #13633866 - 12/14/10 08:14 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Simms said:
I wouldn't be needing a social number or a bank account if people actually had the freedom to know.



Well I don't really care.  Reveal your name, soc sec and bank accts.  Plus all of the other stuff I asked for, anonymous hypocrite.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Simms]
    #13636471 - 12/15/10 11:31 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Simms writes:

Quote:

I believe that everybody should be able to know everything.




How odd that Assange does not. From http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1338832/WikiLeaks-Julian-Assange-asked-judge-bail-address-secret.html


Quote:

Don't leak my address: Astonishing plea from WikiLeaks boss as he tries to get bail

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange tried to hide his bail address from the public in an astonishing move for the man responsible for leaking thousands of diplomatic secrets.

Assange's lawyers argued that the location - a 10-bedroom stately home - should not be disclosed on grounds of privacy during yesterday's hearing at City of Westminster Magistrates' Court.





More at the link.








Phred


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Phred]
    #13637153 - 12/15/10 01:57 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> Assange's lawyers argued that the location - a 10-bedroom stately home - should not be disclosed on grounds of privacy

Oh, that is rich.  What a slime.  My secrets are fair game to publish on the internet, but his secrets are sacrosanct.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13637888 - 12/15/10 04:37 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Unless you want to be hypocrite, you should completely support his rights to privacy.  Or is it okay to have secrets disclosed when it's in line with your own personal vindication?

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Grav]
    #13638321 - 12/15/10 06:09 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
Unless you want to be hypocrite, you should completely support his rights to privacy.  Or is it okay to have secrets disclosed when it's in line with your own personal vindication?



He broke it first.  He's the hypocrite.  He's also an arrested suspect.  Funny status, that.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13638735 - 12/15/10 07:28 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

One involves whistle blowing and exposure of individuals breaking laws,
the other involves privacy laws applying to a man that has not been convicted of anything.. you can't see the difference, really?


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: WScott]
    #13638931 - 12/15/10 08:00 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> the other involves privacy laws applying to a man that has not been convicted of anything.. you can't see the difference, really?

How is publishing the social security numbers of soldiers whistleblowing?  Do privacy laws not apply to soldiers?  I am amazed at the lengths the Assange apologists will go to to justify the publication of private data, yet how quickly they claim scream for privacy when the information being published is something that they don't agree should be public.  Please explain why publishing a soldiers social security number is acceptable while publishing public court records is unacceptable.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13639234 - 12/15/10 09:04 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Grav said:
Unless you want to be hypocrite, you should completely support his rights to privacy.  Or is it okay to have secrets disclosed when it's in line with your own personal vindication?



He broke it first.  He's the hypocrite.  He's also an arrested suspect.  Funny status, that.




He hasn't been convicted of anything. Why should he lose his rights to privacy?  Because you don't like him? My what a merry little fascist you are.

And just to be clear, I'm not an Assange apologist. I think he's a psychological operative tool spreading propaganda. I could give two shits what happens to him.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Grav]
    #13640489 - 12/16/10 03:24 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> He hasn't been convicted of anything.

Irrelevant.

> Why should he lose his rights to privacy?

Because court records are public, at least in the US, unless there is a strong mitigating factor to have them sealed.  He isn't losing a right to privacy, but he is also not gaining an exception to the rule that would give him more privacy than you or me.  Why should he have more rights than us?

> My what a merry little fascist you are.

Enough with the personalisms.  If I see it again, you will be banned.  I've been warning other people, and banning those that ignore the warning.

Also, you would do well to look up, and understand, the definition of 'fascist' lest you look foolish using it inappropriately when trying to flame somebody.

> And just to be clear, I'm not an Assange apologist.

An apologist is somebody who offers a defense by argument.  In your previous post, you are defending Assange.  This makes you an apologist for Assange, does it not?  It doesn't matter if you "think he's a psychological operative tool spreading propaganda" or not.  By defending his actions, such as his request to privacy beyond what is granted to other people, you are an apologist for him.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13640700 - 12/16/10 06:38 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Personally I think wikileaks is a stupid idea: Politics are dirty, lies are abundant and exposing leaks is only aggravating the situation. Informing people on the deception, backstabbing and corruption which occurs is only exposing people to information they likely don't want to hear anyway.

I'm personally sick of hearing bad news. Current times are bad, but that's the way things are. I don't need the world constantly shoving it in my face. I'll quite happily live in ignorance! :pipesmoke:


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Grav]
    #13641101 - 12/16/10 09:26 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

It is standard practice in England to announce the location of house arrest.  Assange was asking for special treatment.  He didn't get it.

As to privacy I suppose you think his arrest shouldn't have been announced either, or the charges against him.  What crap.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13642000 - 12/16/10 01:06 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Enough with the personalisms.  If I see it again, you will be banned.  I've been warning other people, and banning those that ignore the warning.




I was returning the favor to Zappa, he said the exact same thing 2 pages back calling another a "merry little fascist" in which you posted right after.  I'm assuming you remained silent because you agree with his stance on the issue.  I could care less, but don't threaten to ban me because you disagree with my arguments.  It's unnecessary and fairly obvious within the context of the thread that I was not flaming but making an attempt to reveal hypocrisy, and also that others let much worse personalisms fly all the time in this forum and I never see you step in. 

Quote:

An apologist is somebody who offers a defense by argument.  In your previous post, you are defending Assange.  This makes you an apologist for Assange, does it not?  It doesn't matter if you "think he's a psychological operative tool spreading propaganda" or not.  By defending his actions, such as his request to privacy beyond what is granted to other people, you are an apologist for him.




I was acting as an apologist for the sake of argument, that doesn't mean I am one.  Have you ever heard of playing devil's advocate? You would do well to look it up.

I find it amusing that some people here flip their lids over their perceived violations of privacy and the law on one hand, and on the other are ready to play judge jury and executioner when it fits their ideologies.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Grav]
    #13642040 - 12/16/10 01:16 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Devil's advocate = troll.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13642086 - 12/16/10 01:28 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Incorrect.

Troll = troll.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Grav]
    #13642177 - 12/16/10 01:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

No, sorry, I am correct.  It is definitively a troll.  Adopting a position you do not believe for the sake of argument is by definition trolling.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #13642269 - 12/16/10 02:11 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
No, sorry, I am correct.  It is definitively a troll.  Adopting a position you do not believe for the sake of argument is by definition trolling.




Well i'm glad you told us that, I could have gone my entire life without making that association.

From now on everything i previously thought of as considering both sides of the argument will now just be brushed off as trolling.

From now on i will only ever consider one side of a story in order to not be a troll because Zappa says it is.

One day i hope to be as irrationally one sided as i can lest i get called a troll on a message board.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Shins]
    #13642354 - 12/16/10 02:23 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

How about you just argue the side you actually believe?  Given your positions I am quite sure that there will be no dearth of those who will take the other side.

By the way, Stormfront says Hi.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t720869/#post8262913


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13642374 - 12/16/10 02:27 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Seuss is on a power trip


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Nexius]
    #13642378 - 12/16/10 02:28 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

That's a personalism.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Nexius]
    #13642385 - 12/16/10 02:28 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Nexius said:
Seuss is on a power trip




He's going to assassinate your account ;D


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Shins]
    #13642456 - 12/16/10 02:40 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

Nexius said:
Seuss is on a power trip




He's going to assassinate your account ;D





hehe


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Offlinehusk
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13645888 - 12/17/10 05:52 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> how many scientists capable of making such things have ever actually used them personally????

There was a cult in Japan a while back that made sarin nerve gas and released it on the Tokyo subway.  There was another cult in the US a while back that sprayed salad bars in the PNW with biological weapons.  It doesn't even take a scientist if the "recipes" are published.

> Albert Einstein may have made the atomic bomb possible

The only thing Albert Einstein had to do with the atomic bombs was writing a letter to the President of the US warning him of the possibilities of the enemies developing such a weapon before the US.

> The Truth has value and if everyone and everything were exposed we might be forced to be truely civilised.

There are crazy people in the world that don't care about being civilized.  Not everybody is good at heart.




if you can't trust society how can you trust a handfull of people with greater power/rights and access to information, whom are in an even better position for curruption??? the problem is human and regardless of who has the info they are prone to that fault.

besides chemistry could lead anyone to developing such weapons, one need not read pages and pages of wiki leaks archives in the hope of finding such things, google will yeild you info on serin gas : Properties
Molecular formula C4H10FO2P
Molar mass 140.09 g/mol
Appearance Clear colorless liquid. Odorless in pure form.
Density 1.0887 g/cm³ at 25 °C
1.102 g/cm³ at 20 °C
Melting point

-56 °C, 217 K, -69 °F
Boiling point

158 °C, 431 K, 316 °F
Solubility in water miscible


if you have the lab and the chemistry skills you don't need wikileaks

Knowledge and the Truth should be availible to everyone...all information should come under the banner of Academia because polotics, history, anthropology cover most of what is in wikileaks... data is data, its statistics, its information that can be learned from.

For fear of what may go wrong, mushrooms and psychadelics have a pretty bad wrap.... but so much can be learned and for many its worth the risk. The information comes with risk. splitting the atom came with risk, and starting the large hadron collider came with risk... now open source government or free information will come with risks too... whats the worst that can happen??? with the large hadron collider it was a black hole in europe... with free information from wikileaks the risks are slightly less id say.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: husk]
    #13645917 - 12/17/10 06:25 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> all information should come under the banner of Academia

Cool... so you don't mind if I install cameras in your house and stream everything you do to the web?  You did say all information.  I'm guessing somebody will pay to watch you on the toilet.  There are some odd people out there.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #13646068 - 12/17/10 07:56 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
No, sorry, I am correct.  It is definitively a troll.  Adopting a position you do not believe for the sake of argument is by definition trolling.




So debate club is trolling?  Sometimes people just want to become better at arguing, practice makes perfect.

Trolling is purposefully posting just to aggravate other people for an emotion response.  Carrying out a debate is not trolling, even if you claim it so zappa.



--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

Edited by Cannashroom (12/17/10 08:01 AM)

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: husk]
    #13646180 - 12/17/10 08:46 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

if you can't trust society how can you trust a handfull of people with greater power/rights and access to information, whom are in an even better position for curruption??? the problem is human and regardless of who has the info they are prone to that fault.




i agree.  we are letting employees withhold their own performance reviews for our own 'security'. 

this reminds me of the lectures ex-cia Robert Steele has online.  he swears up and down that the way we gather and manage intelligence is totally inefficient and out of date.  the gathering of secrets only meant for a privileged few is flawed by nature.

what if intelligence was opened up to the public and we didn't have to perform this continuous act of faith on the gatekeepers?  let the people know what is really happening in the world and let them decide what threats exist (we're not stupid, we all want to survive) and allow them to collectively vote on what to do about it.  we are in such constant communication with each other via wireless technology, tweets, networking, etc. we could really be the eyes and ears of the world without the old veil of secrecy that has not been proven in any way to actually work.

take for example the theatre of Al-Qiada.  if intelligence were opened up,  society could see that it is a non-existent organization (which has been proven over and over again) we could use our powers of reason to fire the people who created the threat for their own gain, move past the facade, and evaluate real dangers to the people,  not dangers to 'secrecy'.

if a group began misusing intelligence or spreading lies,  there would be about 50 million people that would call them on it almost immediately.  we could enact a new set of intelligence laws that carry severe punishments for spreading false information. weed out the liars, propagandists, and spinners and get back to reality.

obviously open intelligence would have its own unique problems, but i think would be a huge step up from allowing a cabal of criminals to horde secrets for themselves as we the sheep hope and pray we fall under their umbrella of protection as they seek to protect themselves.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Grav]
    #13646503 - 12/17/10 10:35 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> what if intelligence was opened up to the public and we didn't have to perform this continuous act of faith on the gatekeepers?

Then our spies in other countries would be shot and the information the send us would no longer be available to anybody.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13647287 - 12/17/10 01:46 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> all information should come under the banner of Academia

Cool... so you don't mind if I install cameras in your house and stream everything you do to the web?  You did say all information.  I'm guessing somebody will pay to watch you on the toilet.  There are some odd people out there.




If that's what you wanted to do. Then why not?


--------------------
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists & will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Stillmatic9142]
    #13647350 - 12/17/10 02:01 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)



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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13648803 - 12/17/10 07:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> all information should come under the banner of Academia

Cool... so you don't mind if I install cameras in your house and stream everything you do to the web?  You did say all information.  I'm guessing somebody will pay to watch you on the toilet.  There are some odd people out there.





go ahead what do I care, if everyone is is streamed on the toilet i would hardly feel bad about it...after all its a fact of life.

you really dislike the idea of freedom of information. makes me think perhaps you feel people should have things to hide??? personally i feel when everything is exposed you have to live in a way that you actually beleive is right... why would you be ashamed, feel guilty or want to keep secret anything that you believe is righteous???

when you live a righteous life you have unlimited confidence. being blind drunk has the same effect but mainly because your mind has less time (well really reduced processing capacity) to apply a moral code before you act on impulse.

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: husk]
    #13649269 - 12/17/10 09:41 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> you really dislike the idea of freedom of information

No, I really do like the idea of privacy.  I don't need anybody that feels like it pretending to be me and draining my bank account.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13649669 - 12/17/10 11:00 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> you really dislike the idea of freedom of information

No, I really do like the idea of privacy.  I don't need anybody that feels like it pretending to be me and draining my bank account.





There is a difference between freedom of information and privacy rights.


--------------------
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists & will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together.

-former President & 5 Star General, Dwight D Eisenhower's farewell address to the Nation

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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Stillmatic9142]
    #13651592 - 12/18/10 12:12 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Yes there is quite a difference.  They are diametrically opposed.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13651704 - 12/18/10 12:42 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> Yes there is quite a difference.  They are diametrically opposed.

And it certainly isn't Assange's right to decide where to draw the line between what is private and what is not.


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13674297 - 12/23/10 02:46 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)


Cenk Uygur interviews Julian Assange 15 15Minutes --DylanRatiganShow-MSNBC 12-22-10.flv

In this interview, Cenk Uygur, of The Young Turks, asks some questions but mostly allows Julian Assange to speak on several important points that have to do with the whole situation of WikiLeaks, Bradley Manning and his solitary imprisonment, and things to be aware of concerning the future of journalism.

Assange raises an interesting point in the video at 7:15 when he discusses how certain U.S. political figures are accusing him of being a terrorist, yet, according to Assange, if you look at the definition of terrorism, you see that it is violence or the threat of violence to achieve political ends - nothing of which describes WikiLeaks (please watch the video before debating this), but, again according to Assange, describes the actions of politicians perfectly.

Reminds me a little bit of 1984 in that the words are being manipulated so incredibly.

edit --

One of the top rated comments off of YouTube reiterates nicely:

Quote:

The most unusual thing about all this mess is NOT Julian Assange and Wikileaks gossip stuff - it is, as is said in the interview, the statements by Sarah Palin and Mike Huckabee - as well as MANY others on Fox News actually calling for MURDER or KIDNAPPING of people throughout the world when they do these things. That is Terrorism in the most descriptive use of the word.
resculptit 7 hours ago 104




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OfflineSeussA
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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: WScott]
    #13674405 - 12/23/10 03:53 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Assange raises an interesting point in the video at 7:15 when he discusses how certain U.S. political figures are accusing him of being a terrorist, yet, according to Assange, if you look at the definition of terrorism, you see that it is violence or the threat of violence to achieve political ends




Unfortunately, the word 'terrorist' often gets used carelessly, usually by politicians trying to stir emotions.  However, there is some validity in the use of the term with respect to Assange.  He is certainly trying to achieve political ends.  The only question becomes is the threat of violence or use of violence being used to achieve his goal?  In a traditional sense, no.  He isn't building bombs or threatening to blow up buildings.  However, the information he is releasing allows people that are building bombs and threatening to blow up buildings to better target their weapons.  There is no question that the information he is releasing enables terrorists to do a better job.  It is a fine line that he is walking...


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InvisibleShins
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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Seuss]
    #13674418 - 12/23/10 04:28 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

Assange raises an interesting point in the video at 7:15 when he discusses how certain U.S. political figures are accusing him of being a terrorist, yet, according to Assange, if you look at the definition of terrorism, you see that it is violence or the threat of violence to achieve political ends




Unfortunately, the word 'terrorist' often gets used carelessly, usually by politicians trying to stir emotions.  However, there is some validity in the use of the term with respect to Assange.  He is certainly trying to achieve political ends.  The only question becomes is the threat of violence or use of violence being used to achieve his goal?  In a traditional sense, no.  He isn't building bombs or threatening to blow up buildings.  However, the information he is releasing allows people that are building bombs and threatening to blow up buildings to better target their weapons.  There is no question that the information he is releasing enables terrorists to do a better job.  It is a fine line that he is walking...




It's a fine line you're walking, because that is quite a stretch.

What about war? does war not count as terrorism by that definition?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Shins]
    #13674427 - 12/23/10 04:38 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

> What about war? does war not count as terrorism by that definition?

Good point... the definition provided failed to include "against civilians".  That is the big difference between war and terrorism... war is violence engaged between armed combatants while terrorism is violence engaged against unarmed civilians.

> It's a fine line you're walking, because that is quite a stretch.

I agree.  I also do not believe Assange to be a terrorist, at least in the traditional sense of the word.  However, I can see why some people would consider him as such.  If I publish a stolen, classified list of targets that the US feels are important to national security, and terrorists start to attack those targets because of the list that I published, am I not culpable for the deaths and hardship that result?


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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Seuss]
    #13674445 - 12/23/10 04:53 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps, but i don't think Julian did that.  The people who allowed the info to leek should take some responsibility, as well as the people who hypothetically did not react to the leak of that information in a way that better secured those specific targets. Good point though.

Some of the people calling him a terrorist are ironically calling for his unlawful assassination, which is terrorism itself by definition.

Ironically, more civilians have died because of the "war on terror" than "enemy combatants," it's pot calling kettle black...

That's a mind fuck for you...


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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Shins]
    #13674506 - 12/23/10 05:36 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Wow, don't you guys value the truth?




That's exactly my point.

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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Seuss] * 1
    #13685987 - 12/26/10 09:25 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
He isn't building bombs or threatening to blow up buildings.  However, the information he is releasing allows people that are building bombs and threatening to blow up buildings to better target their weapons.  There is no question that the information he is releasing enables terrorists to do a better job.




There is no question that the public roads the government builds enable terrorists to do a better job.  So do the cell phones produced by Nokia, the infrastructure built by T-mobile, the electricity delivered by the power company, the cars built by Ford, and the airplanes built by Boeing. 

All of these things are much more tangible aids to terrorism than the information released by Wikileaks.

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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #13686711 - 12/26/10 01:55 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Figures some guy with a Chinese user name would appear to prefer the stone age.


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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Seuss]
    #13693912 - 12/27/10 11:11 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

^Personalism? And did he say we should remove those things.  Baseless assumptions and racist statements.

Quote:

Seuss said:
> What about war? does war not count as terrorism by that definition?

Good point... the definition provided failed to include "against civilians".  That is the big difference between war and terrorism... war is violence engaged between armed combatants while terrorism is violence engaged against unarmed civilians.

> It's a fine line you're walking, because that is quite a stretch.

I agree.  I also do not believe Assange to be a terrorist, at least in the traditional sense of the word.  However, I can see why some people would consider him as such.  If I publish a stolen, classified list of targets that the US feels are important to national security, and terrorists start to attack those targets because of the list that I published, am I not culpable for the deaths and hardship that result?




How is the political campaign of many former and current republicans not terrorism.  They constantly use people's fear of a terrorist threat for their political means.  It is terrorism.  That was always the huge irony for me that the war on terror is really terrorism against the voters.

The war on terror just furthers the fear the terrorists are trying to create, and it also allows the political manipulations of the masses.


--------------------
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This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13694662 - 12/28/10 03:55 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

> They constantly use people's fear of a terrorist threat for their political means.

There is a difference between:

"Vote for me, or I will kill you after I make you watch me kill your family and loved ones."

... and ...

"Vote for me because the world is full of bad people and my opponent is incompetent do deal with them."

> How is the political campaign of many former and current republicans not terrorism.

I seem to recall a whole lot of Democrats supporting the Patriot Act (both times).  I also seem to recall a whole lot of Democrats doing nothing to end the "War on Terror" when they had a super-majority in Congress and a President of the same party.  You might want to take those partisan glasses off if you really believe that the Republicans are the only ones pushing, or responsible for, the "War on Terror".


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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Seuss]
    #13694707 - 12/28/10 04:26 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"war on terror" seems like an oxymoron to me :awesome:


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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Shins]
    #13695349 - 12/28/10 10:14 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

It's sloppy semantics but it isn't an oxymoron.  Are SWAT cops who surround a hostage taker also taking a hostage?  I don't think so.


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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13695359 - 12/28/10 10:17 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
It's sloppy semantics but it isn't an oxymoron.  Are SWAT cops who surround a hostage taker also taking a hostage?  I don't think so.





The key point that most conveniently forget is that government is usually the agent that engages in terrorizing the populace it governs.

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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Mr.Al]
    #13695380 - 12/28/10 10:22 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Sure it is, Al.


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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Seuss]
    #13695921 - 12/28/10 12:54 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> They constantly use people's fear of a terrorist threat for their political means.

There is a difference between:

"Vote for me, or I will kill you after I make you watch me kill your family and loved ones."

... and ...

"Vote for me because the world is full of bad people and my opponent is incompetent do deal with them."

> How is the political campaign of many former and current republicans not terrorism.

I seem to recall a whole lot of Democrats supporting the Patriot Act (both times).  I also seem to recall a whole lot of Democrats doing nothing to end the "War on Terror" when they had a super-majority in Congress and a President of the same party.  You might want to take those partisan glasses off if you really believe that the Republicans are the only ones pushing, or responsible for, the "War on Terror".




I never said the democrats did not support it, I just don't think they used the fear of terrorism to such an extent as the republicans did.  I'm not defending the democrats (nor did I mean to make it partisan, republicans just gave a better example), I think almost all politicians are narcissistic, self-serving and usually incompetent to govern.

And Suess, I see little difference in the psychological impact of:

"Vote for me or I will hurt you and your family"
and
"Vote for me or you wont be protected from others hurting you and your family.

Both are instilling fear in  people for political gain.  Yes one is more subtle, but it is still manipulating people to use their fear for political gain.

On that note, it seems like most of the media is terrorism, it is just constant fear mongering (maybe not always for political gain, but financial also(guess that would be extortion though)).

I think the MSM instills lots more fear and problems in our society thank wiki-leaks ever could.

Lastly, can you show one person that has been harmed as a result of wiki-leaks?

You guys like to keep saying how it endangers people and help the terrorists, but without evidence to show it has happened, your talk is worthless.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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OfflineCannashroom
Smoke two Joints
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 2,141
Loc: Everywhere
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13695983 - 12/28/10 01:08 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
> They constantly use people's fear of a terrorist threat for their political means.

There is a difference between:

"Vote for me, or I will kill you after I make you watch me kill your family and loved ones."

... and ...

"Vote for me because the world is full of bad people and my opponent is incompetent do deal with them."

> How is the political campaign of many former and current republicans not terrorism.

I seem to recall a whole lot of Democrats supporting the Patriot Act (both times).  I also seem to recall a whole lot of Democrats doing nothing to end the "War on Terror" when they had a super-majority in Congress and a President of the same party.  You might want to take those partisan glasses off if you really believe that the Republicans are the only ones pushing, or responsible for, the "War on Terror".




I never said the democrats did not support it, I just don't think they used the fear of terrorism to such an extent as the republicans did.  I'm not defending the democrats (nor did I mean to make it partisan, republicans just gave a better example), I think almost all politicians are narcissistic, self-serving (or become that way) and usually incompetent to govern.

And Suess, I see little difference in the psychological impact of:

"Vote for me or I will hurt you and your family"
and
"Vote for me or you wont be protected from others hurting you and your family.

Both are instilling fear in  people for political gain.  Yes one is more subtle, but it is still manipulating people to use their fear for political gain.

On that note, it seems like most of the media is terrorism, it is just constant fear mongering (maybe not always for political gain, but financial also(guess that would be extortion though)).

I think the MSM instills lots more fear and problems in our society thank wiki-leaks ever could.

Lastly, can you show one person that has been harmed as a result of wiki-leaks?

You guys like to keep saying how it endangers people and helps the terrorists, but without evidence to show it has happened, your talk is worthless.




--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: ikiLeaks [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13696028 - 12/28/10 01:20 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

And Suess, I see little difference in the psychological impact of:

"Vote for me or I will hurt you and your family"
and
"Vote for me or you wont be protected from others hurting you and your family.




That isn't what I posted.  Rather than changing my reply, then claiming that you don't see a difference, reference my reply as it was written.  The difference that I illustrated is very pronounced, unlike the changes you made.

Quote:

You guys like to keep saying how it endangers people and help the terrorists, but without evidence to show it has happened, your talk is worthless.




So somebody has to be harmed?  Post your full name, social security number (assuming you live in the US), your address, your mothers maiden name, and any other pertinent information related to your identity.  Is all talk of identity theft worthless until you actually get screwed over from identity theft?  Put your money where your mouth is and post those personal details if you believe your statements to be true.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflineCannashroom
Smoke two Joints
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Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 2,141
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: ikiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13696959 - 12/28/10 04:50 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

And Suess, I see little difference in the psychological impact of:

"Vote for me or I will hurt you and your family"
and
"Vote for me or you wont be protected from others hurting you and your family.




That isn't what I posted.  Rather than changing my reply, then claiming that you don't see a difference, reference my reply as it was written.  The difference that I illustrated is very pronounced, unlike the changes you made.

Quote:

You guys like to keep saying how it endangers people and help the terrorists, but without evidence to show it has happened, your talk is worthless.




So somebody has to be harmed?  Post your full name, social security number (assuming you live in the US), your address, your mothers maiden name, and any other pertinent information related to your identity.  Is all talk of identity theft worthless until you actually get screwed over from identity theft?  Put your money where your mouth is and post those personal details if you believe your statements to be true.




I really don't see the difference between what you and I posted.  I just put it more bluntly.  You were just saying the same thing more subtly.  Both are appealing to the fear complex.  If you can't see that then there is no point in saying anything more.  Furthermore, since we are both just making paraphrases of past election campaigns both are meaningless, they are just examples.  So focusing on me not quoting you is pointless, it has nothing to do with my argument since I wasn't talking about you in particular.  You were never running for office, I was talking about what other people said, not you, so saying i didn't quote you is pointless.  We are both just saying our interpretations of a previous event, rather than saying I am not quoting you properly why not show me a primary source that what I say is false (which is impossible since fearmongering is ubiquitous in today's political world).  Political campaigns are full of fear mongering, there is no point in denying it.

And for posting my information, you are just redirecting my argument.  Instead of actually answering you just say I should give out all my personal information?  Your response doesn't make sense.

Can you show me any people who have had identity theft or just that it is possible?  Once again you just said the same thing, and then redirected me.

Who has had their identity stolen?  Who had been killed?

Asking me to give out my identity is not an answer to my question.  I don't agree that wiki leaks should have released this information, but it gave the US government the change to redact it, if it wanted to protect its citizens and allies, and they refused.

We need more transparency in government and foreign affairs.  The people elect the government, and should not be kept in the dark about their doings.  Do you regularly keep pertinent information about your job from your boss/employer.  The government needs to stop acting like our feudal lords and more like our employees, as they should be/are.

Independent media and wikileaks are beacons of hope in a twisted MSM world.  Ever talk to people who get all their information from the MSM?  It is scary.

The people wikileaks is causing the most terror is in the people who control the media, and allas get to portray it as terrorism, how convenient.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

Edited by Cannashroom (12/28/10 04:56 PM)

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OfflineWScott
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Posts: 5,713
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Re: WikiLeaks [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13707258 - 12/30/10 05:21 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

A passionate opinion on WikiLeaks and the knowing-destruction of honeybees :mad2:



--------------------

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: WikiLeaks [Re: WScott]
    #13708630 - 12/30/10 09:36 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)



--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineWScott
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Registered: 07/31/05
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Re: WikiLeaks [Re: deCypher]
    #13711346 - 12/31/10 12:47 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2010/12/arab-world-julian-assange-arab-leaders-cia-conspiracy-spies-wikileaks-al-jazeera.html
"If I am killed or detained for a long time, there are 2,000 websites ready to publish the remaining files ... if I am forced we could go to the extreme and expose each and every file that we have access to," the Peninsula quoted him as saying.

If extradited to Sweden, Assange said he believes the authorities there would hand him over to the Americans. He also claimed in Wednesday's interview that the Pentagon has established a special "war room," staffed by more than 100 people whose jobs are to destroy his website.




--------------------

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OfflineNexius
Ruler
Male


Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 3,960
Loc: Earth Flag
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: IkiLeaks [Re: WScott]
    #13723607 - 01/03/11 06:45 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)



WikiLeaks used for spying on citizens Internet being watched by the CIA FBI New form of terrorism




Shroomery too?


--------------------
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak

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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Nexius]
    #13929353 - 02/08/11 06:57 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

US embassy cables: Saudi oil company oversold ability to increase production, embassy told


"a senior Saudi government oil executive that the kingdom's crude oil reserves may have been overstated by as much as 300bn barrels – nearly 40%"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/feb/08/oil-saudiarabia?intcmp=239

theres some good news....


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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