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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Shins]
    #13674427 - 12/23/10 04:38 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

> What about war? does war not count as terrorism by that definition?

Good point... the definition provided failed to include "against civilians".  That is the big difference between war and terrorism... war is violence engaged between armed combatants while terrorism is violence engaged against unarmed civilians.

> It's a fine line you're walking, because that is quite a stretch.

I agree.  I also do not believe Assange to be a terrorist, at least in the traditional sense of the word.  However, I can see why some people would consider him as such.  If I publish a stolen, classified list of targets that the US feels are important to national security, and terrorists start to attack those targets because of the list that I published, am I not culpable for the deaths and hardship that result?


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InvisibleShins
Fun guy
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Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Seuss]
    #13674445 - 12/23/10 04:53 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps, but i don't think Julian did that.  The people who allowed the info to leek should take some responsibility, as well as the people who hypothetically did not react to the leak of that information in a way that better secured those specific targets. Good point though.

Some of the people calling him a terrorist are ironically calling for his unlawful assassination, which is terrorism itself by definition.

Ironically, more civilians have died because of the "war on terror" than "enemy combatants," it's pot calling kettle black...

That's a mind fuck for you...


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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OfflineNicoCL
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Registered: 02/24/10
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Shins]
    #13674506 - 12/23/10 05:36 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Wow, don't you guys value the truth?




That's exactly my point.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Seuss] * 1
    #13685987 - 12/26/10 09:25 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
He isn't building bombs or threatening to blow up buildings.  However, the information he is releasing allows people that are building bombs and threatening to blow up buildings to better target their weapons.  There is no question that the information he is releasing enables terrorists to do a better job.




There is no question that the public roads the government builds enable terrorists to do a better job.  So do the cell phones produced by Nokia, the infrastructure built by T-mobile, the electricity delivered by the power company, the cars built by Ford, and the airplanes built by Boeing. 

All of these things are much more tangible aids to terrorism than the information released by Wikileaks.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #13686711 - 12/26/10 01:55 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Figures some guy with a Chinese user name would appear to prefer the stone age.


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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Seuss]
    #13693912 - 12/27/10 11:11 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

^Personalism? And did he say we should remove those things.  Baseless assumptions and racist statements.

Quote:

Seuss said:
> What about war? does war not count as terrorism by that definition?

Good point... the definition provided failed to include "against civilians".  That is the big difference between war and terrorism... war is violence engaged between armed combatants while terrorism is violence engaged against unarmed civilians.

> It's a fine line you're walking, because that is quite a stretch.

I agree.  I also do not believe Assange to be a terrorist, at least in the traditional sense of the word.  However, I can see why some people would consider him as such.  If I publish a stolen, classified list of targets that the US feels are important to national security, and terrorists start to attack those targets because of the list that I published, am I not culpable for the deaths and hardship that result?




How is the political campaign of many former and current republicans not terrorism.  They constantly use people's fear of a terrorist threat for their political means.  It is terrorism.  That was always the huge irony for me that the war on terror is really terrorism against the voters.

The war on terror just furthers the fear the terrorists are trying to create, and it also allows the political manipulations of the masses.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13694662 - 12/28/10 03:55 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

> They constantly use people's fear of a terrorist threat for their political means.

There is a difference between:

"Vote for me, or I will kill you after I make you watch me kill your family and loved ones."

... and ...

"Vote for me because the world is full of bad people and my opponent is incompetent do deal with them."

> How is the political campaign of many former and current republicans not terrorism.

I seem to recall a whole lot of Democrats supporting the Patriot Act (both times).  I also seem to recall a whole lot of Democrats doing nothing to end the "War on Terror" when they had a super-majority in Congress and a President of the same party.  You might want to take those partisan glasses off if you really believe that the Republicans are the only ones pushing, or responsible for, the "War on Terror".


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InvisibleShins
Fun guy
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Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Seuss]
    #13694707 - 12/28/10 04:26 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"war on terror" seems like an oxymoron to me :awesome:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Shins]
    #13695349 - 12/28/10 10:14 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

It's sloppy semantics but it isn't an oxymoron.  Are SWAT cops who surround a hostage taker also taking a hostage?  I don't think so.


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13695359 - 12/28/10 10:17 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
It's sloppy semantics but it isn't an oxymoron.  Are SWAT cops who surround a hostage taker also taking a hostage?  I don't think so.





The key point that most conveniently forget is that government is usually the agent that engages in terrorizing the populace it governs.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Mr.Al]
    #13695380 - 12/28/10 10:22 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Sure it is, Al.


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OfflineCannashroom
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Registered: 10/25/07
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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Seuss]
    #13695921 - 12/28/10 12:54 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> They constantly use people's fear of a terrorist threat for their political means.

There is a difference between:

"Vote for me, or I will kill you after I make you watch me kill your family and loved ones."

... and ...

"Vote for me because the world is full of bad people and my opponent is incompetent do deal with them."

> How is the political campaign of many former and current republicans not terrorism.

I seem to recall a whole lot of Democrats supporting the Patriot Act (both times).  I also seem to recall a whole lot of Democrats doing nothing to end the "War on Terror" when they had a super-majority in Congress and a President of the same party.  You might want to take those partisan glasses off if you really believe that the Republicans are the only ones pushing, or responsible for, the "War on Terror".




I never said the democrats did not support it, I just don't think they used the fear of terrorism to such an extent as the republicans did.  I'm not defending the democrats (nor did I mean to make it partisan, republicans just gave a better example), I think almost all politicians are narcissistic, self-serving and usually incompetent to govern.

And Suess, I see little difference in the psychological impact of:

"Vote for me or I will hurt you and your family"
and
"Vote for me or you wont be protected from others hurting you and your family.

Both are instilling fear in  people for political gain.  Yes one is more subtle, but it is still manipulating people to use their fear for political gain.

On that note, it seems like most of the media is terrorism, it is just constant fear mongering (maybe not always for political gain, but financial also(guess that would be extortion though)).

I think the MSM instills lots more fear and problems in our society thank wiki-leaks ever could.

Lastly, can you show one person that has been harmed as a result of wiki-leaks?

You guys like to keep saying how it endangers people and help the terrorists, but without evidence to show it has happened, your talk is worthless.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: WIKILEAKS [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13695983 - 12/28/10 01:08 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
> They constantly use people's fear of a terrorist threat for their political means.

There is a difference between:

"Vote for me, or I will kill you after I make you watch me kill your family and loved ones."

... and ...

"Vote for me because the world is full of bad people and my opponent is incompetent do deal with them."

> How is the political campaign of many former and current republicans not terrorism.

I seem to recall a whole lot of Democrats supporting the Patriot Act (both times).  I also seem to recall a whole lot of Democrats doing nothing to end the "War on Terror" when they had a super-majority in Congress and a President of the same party.  You might want to take those partisan glasses off if you really believe that the Republicans are the only ones pushing, or responsible for, the "War on Terror".




I never said the democrats did not support it, I just don't think they used the fear of terrorism to such an extent as the republicans did.  I'm not defending the democrats (nor did I mean to make it partisan, republicans just gave a better example), I think almost all politicians are narcissistic, self-serving (or become that way) and usually incompetent to govern.

And Suess, I see little difference in the psychological impact of:

"Vote for me or I will hurt you and your family"
and
"Vote for me or you wont be protected from others hurting you and your family.

Both are instilling fear in  people for political gain.  Yes one is more subtle, but it is still manipulating people to use their fear for political gain.

On that note, it seems like most of the media is terrorism, it is just constant fear mongering (maybe not always for political gain, but financial also(guess that would be extortion though)).

I think the MSM instills lots more fear and problems in our society thank wiki-leaks ever could.

Lastly, can you show one person that has been harmed as a result of wiki-leaks?

You guys like to keep saying how it endangers people and helps the terrorists, but without evidence to show it has happened, your talk is worthless.




--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: ikiLeaks [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13696028 - 12/28/10 01:20 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

And Suess, I see little difference in the psychological impact of:

"Vote for me or I will hurt you and your family"
and
"Vote for me or you wont be protected from others hurting you and your family.




That isn't what I posted.  Rather than changing my reply, then claiming that you don't see a difference, reference my reply as it was written.  The difference that I illustrated is very pronounced, unlike the changes you made.

Quote:

You guys like to keep saying how it endangers people and help the terrorists, but without evidence to show it has happened, your talk is worthless.




So somebody has to be harmed?  Post your full name, social security number (assuming you live in the US), your address, your mothers maiden name, and any other pertinent information related to your identity.  Is all talk of identity theft worthless until you actually get screwed over from identity theft?  Put your money where your mouth is and post those personal details if you believe your statements to be true.


--------------------
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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: ikiLeaks [Re: Seuss]
    #13696959 - 12/28/10 04:50 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

And Suess, I see little difference in the psychological impact of:

"Vote for me or I will hurt you and your family"
and
"Vote for me or you wont be protected from others hurting you and your family.




That isn't what I posted.  Rather than changing my reply, then claiming that you don't see a difference, reference my reply as it was written.  The difference that I illustrated is very pronounced, unlike the changes you made.

Quote:

You guys like to keep saying how it endangers people and help the terrorists, but without evidence to show it has happened, your talk is worthless.




So somebody has to be harmed?  Post your full name, social security number (assuming you live in the US), your address, your mothers maiden name, and any other pertinent information related to your identity.  Is all talk of identity theft worthless until you actually get screwed over from identity theft?  Put your money where your mouth is and post those personal details if you believe your statements to be true.




I really don't see the difference between what you and I posted.  I just put it more bluntly.  You were just saying the same thing more subtly.  Both are appealing to the fear complex.  If you can't see that then there is no point in saying anything more.  Furthermore, since we are both just making paraphrases of past election campaigns both are meaningless, they are just examples.  So focusing on me not quoting you is pointless, it has nothing to do with my argument since I wasn't talking about you in particular.  You were never running for office, I was talking about what other people said, not you, so saying i didn't quote you is pointless.  We are both just saying our interpretations of a previous event, rather than saying I am not quoting you properly why not show me a primary source that what I say is false (which is impossible since fearmongering is ubiquitous in today's political world).  Political campaigns are full of fear mongering, there is no point in denying it.

And for posting my information, you are just redirecting my argument.  Instead of actually answering you just say I should give out all my personal information?  Your response doesn't make sense.

Can you show me any people who have had identity theft or just that it is possible?  Once again you just said the same thing, and then redirected me.

Who has had their identity stolen?  Who had been killed?

Asking me to give out my identity is not an answer to my question.  I don't agree that wiki leaks should have released this information, but it gave the US government the change to redact it, if it wanted to protect its citizens and allies, and they refused.

We need more transparency in government and foreign affairs.  The people elect the government, and should not be kept in the dark about their doings.  Do you regularly keep pertinent information about your job from your boss/employer.  The government needs to stop acting like our feudal lords and more like our employees, as they should be/are.

Independent media and wikileaks are beacons of hope in a twisted MSM world.  Ever talk to people who get all their information from the MSM?  It is scary.

The people wikileaks is causing the most terror is in the people who control the media, and allas get to portray it as terrorism, how convenient.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

Edited by Cannashroom (12/28/10 04:56 PM)

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OfflineWScott
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Re: WikiLeaks [Re: Cannashroom]
    #13707258 - 12/30/10 05:21 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

A passionate opinion on WikiLeaks and the knowing-destruction of honeybees :mad2:



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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: WikiLeaks [Re: WScott]
    #13708630 - 12/30/10 09:36 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)



--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineWScott
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Re: WikiLeaks [Re: deCypher]
    #13711346 - 12/31/10 12:47 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2010/12/arab-world-julian-assange-arab-leaders-cia-conspiracy-spies-wikileaks-al-jazeera.html
"If I am killed or detained for a long time, there are 2,000 websites ready to publish the remaining files ... if I am forced we could go to the extreme and expose each and every file that we have access to," the Peninsula quoted him as saying.

If extradited to Sweden, Assange said he believes the authorities there would hand him over to the Americans. He also claimed in Wednesday's interview that the Pentagon has established a special "war room," staffed by more than 100 people whose jobs are to destroy his website.




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OfflineNexius
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Registered: 06/24/07
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: WScott]
    #13723607 - 01/03/11 06:45 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)



WikiLeaks used for spying on citizens Internet being watched by the CIA FBI New form of terrorism




Shroomery too?


--------------------
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak

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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: IkiLeaks [Re: Nexius]
    #13929353 - 02/08/11 06:57 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

US embassy cables: Saudi oil company oversold ability to increase production, embassy told


"a senior Saudi government oil executive that the kingdom's crude oil reserves may have been overstated by as much as 300bn barrels – nearly 40%"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/feb/08/oil-saudiarabia?intcmp=239

theres some good news....


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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