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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Do you deserve to live? 1
#13555613 - 11/29/10 12:49 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Take a step back and look at yourself. What you think, who you are, what you've done. All you accomplishments. All other animals and plants die from the look of it. Many like to think there is something especially worthwhile about humans and humanity. That we are deserving of an immortal soul.
If you believe it lets hear why. Discuss.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (11/29/10 12:50 AM)
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Do you deserve to live? [Re: Icelander]
#13555626 - 11/29/10 12:53 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Seems a more funamental matter is the question of what it means to deserve to live? I couldn't even begin to reason out my worth in light of the things you urge considering.
Practically though, who cares? I can't see how an immortal soul or our live has much to do with what we deserve, unless you buy into the christian or similar philosophies that hold god to be some dude you can argue with and convince of your position (which always struck me as a bit inconsistant with omniscience, but that's the least of the problems with the bible and christianity).
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I_was_the_walrus
eggshells
Registered: 05/01/02
Posts: 11,887
Loc: next door
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Re: Do you deserve to live? [Re: johnm214]
#13555658 - 11/29/10 01:05 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Really, who deserves to live? The rich kid spoiled and schooled by his parents or the poor uneducated kid in africa who hunts for his family?
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized
Registered: 08/17/07
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Loc: ohio
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I don't "deserve" anything. What does it mean to deserve anything? Deserve has fake connotations (like many words/concepts).... at best it's speculative conjecture. Too evaluative to fit the palate of a refined dry modern perspective.
I just am... and I just happen to be the most important human on god's holy earth if I may say so myself.
You "deserve" what you can take/maintain, and so on and so forth... (and this is the classic heart of the issue for society that seeks to escape/transform the "state of nature" I'd figur)
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
Edited by andrewss (11/29/10 01:27 AM)
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Dickhead
2 Times
Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 28,769
Loc: groin
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Re: Do you deserve to live? [Re: Icelander]
#13555699 - 11/29/10 01:28 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Deserving? I for one believe that if there is indeed any awareness after death that experience will be a common/similar/basic experience all people. Deserving of immortality?? I doubt immortality is a guild of souls that were EFFECTIVE in their lives. The rain washes the liars AND the saints. It is or isn't, for all.
The ONLY possibility of "deserving" of immortal life is if you figured a method to extend biological life indefinitely. Which in fact; I believe may one day be possible. Basically; If you can find the key, you can drive the car.
Are humans special among the rest of animals and life? Unequivocally, yes. Our observation record and manipulation of the physical universe; topped with tremendous intellectual and philosophical creativity and scrutiny that spans that history; You are damn right we are special.
Deserving? Well no. If there were a "god" who strikes the magic wand he would be wise to finish us before we destroy his universe and HIM. Given the chance, we most likely would(perhaps someone already has).
Quote:
Icelander said: All other animals and plants die from the look of it.
I don't get this sentence.
-------------------- Multiplied
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Do you deserve to live? [Re: Dickhead]
#13555706 - 11/29/10 01:31 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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For a long time I read your signature as "don't fuck with an aspiring shaman" and thought it was pretty funny- maybe even inspired by someone from "the psychedelic experience"
Then I saw that it was really "don't fuck with an aspirin shaman"
I can't say which I like more
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 25 days
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Quote:
I_was_the_walrus said: Really, who deserves to live? The rich kid spoiled and schooled by his parents or the poor uneducated kid in africa who hunts for his family?
No, they both suck and deserve to die.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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CHIEF-CHEESE
Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 83
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
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Re: Do you deserve to live? [Re: andrewss]
#13555721 - 11/29/10 01:40 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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The symbol I have learned to call myself was born with the gift of breath. At the moment of my inception, I had done nothing to deserve this ability. Countless others were given less ideal circumstances, which they did not ask for, nor did they deserve. Every unlabored inhalation I draw from the air is contrasted with desperate suffocation for untold unfortunate souls. Whilst I have the privileged to manifest my will in the physical world, this temporary form in the flux of existence must act to alleviate the pain and suffering we all bare in common. If I fail to do this, I have not earned my right to breath.
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Edited by CHIEF-CHEESE (11/29/10 01:59 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Do you deserve to live? [Re: johnm214]
#13555745 - 11/29/10 01:51 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: Seems a more funamental matter is the question of what it means to deserve to live? I couldn't even begin to reason out my worth in light of the things you urge considering.
Practically though, who cares? I can't see how an immortal soul or our live has much to do with what we deserve, unless you buy into the christian or similar philosophies that hold god to be some dude you can argue with and convince of your position (which always struck me as a bit inconsistant with omniscience, but that's the least of the problems with the bible and christianity).
Well I must care cause I asked. Why did I ask? I've not been able to understand that in light of our animal behaviors how we can consider ourselves superior to other life forms. I'm asking this to a select group who believe that we are the apex of creation.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Do you deserve to live? [Re: Icelander]
#13555750 - 11/29/10 01:52 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Take a step back and look at yourself. What you think, who you are, what you've done. All you accomplishments. All other animals and plants die from the look of it. Many like to think there is something especially worthwhile about humans and humanity. That we are deserving of an immortal soul.
If you believe it lets hear why. Discuss.
Because , duh.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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I_was_the_walrus
eggshells
Registered: 05/01/02
Posts: 11,887
Loc: next door
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Re: Do you deserve to live? [Re: Dickhead]
#13555758 - 11/29/10 01:56 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Awebig said: Quote:
Icelander said: All other animals and plants die from the look of it.
I don't get this sentence.
We both come and go just as easy as anything else on the earth. Why would you hold yourself at a higher standard?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
CHIEF-CHEESE said: The symbol I have learned to call myself was born with the gift of breath. At the moment of my inception, I had done nothing to deserve this ability. Countless others were given less ideal circumstances, which they did not ask for, nor did they deserve. Every unlabored inhalation I draw from the air is contrasted with desperate suffocation for untold unfortunate souls. Whilst I have the privileged to manifest my will in the physical world, this temporary form in the flux of existence must act to alleviate the pain and suffering we all bare in common. If I fail to do this, I have not earned my right to breath.
And who will you earn this right from? This sounds pretty subjective and not at all what I observe in nature.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Dickhead
2 Times
Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 28,769
Loc: groin
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New Age guilt trips; shit. Worse than Catholics.
You don't earn life or breath... It is given simple as that. The world as we know it doesn't deal in "deserved". Only in our civilization, a human idea, does that even acquire meaning. Whatever may be the mechanism of consciousness, life and death; it would be bound in nature... No more choosy or intentional than a stick of chaulk.
Feel unworthy of air if you want... I will breath free if I save a million lives or if I whack off my whole life and do fuck all
Just remember that in the end(your end) it is not likely to make any more difference. Born blank, we die blank.
-------------------- Multiplied
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Age_of_Reflection
Traveler
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Re: Do you deserve to live? [Re: Dickhead]
#13555863 - 11/29/10 03:09 AM (13 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think we all deserve to live. The universe favored your creation, so your hear. All things being equal.
Or, perhaps mortality is an illusion? For those who believe we're getting only a fraction of the story, the possibilities are limitless. But alas...
Wishful thinking?
-------------------- One day we all will die. If were lucky, warm in our beds, But in truth, we lived two lives. One external, and one in our heads. --- A.O.R.
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CHIEF-CHEESE
Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 83
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
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Re: Do you deserve to live? [Re: Icelander]
#13555868 - 11/29/10 03:14 AM (13 years, 3 months ago) |
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Our minds are bound in bodies of aggression, but we are not wholly governed by thoughtless instinct. I choose to impose a subjective value system upon my actions not out of guilt, but by the recognition that helping others is mutually beneficial. Symbiosis is a viable strategy in evolutionary competition, one I feel humanity should heed for the survival of the species.
I would contest the claim that "we are born blank, we die blank." Living actions are directed into the reality of death, which can only be communicated through allegory. The transmutation of being can be compared to the cycle of wakefulness and sleep. To the objective world, the fact that all this becomes a metaphor as we slip into the dream is taken for granted. Likewise in the dream we are most times unaware that it too is a symbolic perspective. Our logic can only be traced so far back as we remember, so it is in the between states of lucidity and hallucination that we realize the arbitrary nature of distinction. If we admit the meaning of everything is beyond the realm of human cognition, we should also know the meaning of nothing is essentially equivalent. For nothingness to be the state of non-being, it would imply nothing is apparently something to the dead, but not to the living.
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Edited by CHIEF-CHEESE (11/29/10 03:53 AM)
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I_was_the_walrus
eggshells
Registered: 05/01/02
Posts: 11,887
Loc: next door
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This is all a matter on consciousness, which we base our lives around and have had a foundation layed under us before we could even make our own assumptions. Life and death, awake or asleep aren't really awarenesses we could apply to other things, as that's nothing we could even understand.
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
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Re: Do you deserve to live? [Re: Icelander]
#13556444 - 11/29/10 08:56 AM (13 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Take a step back and look at yourself. What you think, who you are, what you've done. All you accomplishments. All other animals and plants die from the look of it. Many like to think there is something especially worthwhile about humans and humanity. That we are deserving of an immortal soul.
If you believe it lets hear why. Discuss.
There is something special about humanity. I mean, that's obvious. Sure we commit some of the most fucked up atrocities but there are actually amazing beings out there who are nothing but loving and compassionate. If not for them we would have been wiped out a long time ago. We should all be working towards becoming like that.
<---ya know people like that
Btw animals have souls too, though probably not all of them on a one-to-one basis like humans do.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,301
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Re: Do you deserve to live? [Re: Icelander]
#13556541 - 11/29/10 09:31 AM (13 years, 3 months ago) |
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Life at it's basic doesn't seem dualistic, but the ego treats life like it treats everything else. It thinks it should live forever, AND it thinks it deserves to die. It feels like this about everything on cursory examination. It feels sorry for that ant it stepped on, and the wilted flowed, and all the miserable creatures.
But ultimately, the ego doesn't think anyone deserves to live period. Someone disagrees with me, or does something less efficiently than I... I wish they would die! They deserve it. A quiet wish for suicide, that's what replaces the ignorant bliss, reduced to base ignorance out of fear, reinforced with all the exposure and illusions of trust crumble.
And appearances become important. "Who me?!?" "I never did!"
Divine Comedy? Or tragedy?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Age_of_Reflection said: I think we all deserve to live. The universe favored your creation, so your hear. All things being equal.
Or, perhaps mortality is an illusion? For those who believe we're getting only a fraction of the story, the possibilities are limitless. But alas...
Wishful thinking?
My convoluted and poorly made point is that do we deserve more than what happens to the rest of nature?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Do you deserve to live? [Re: Rahz]
#13556717 - 11/29/10 10:25 AM (13 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Life at it's basic doesn't seem dualistic, but the ego treats life like it treats everything else. It thinks it should live forever, AND it thinks it deserves to die. It feels like this about everything on cursory examination. It feels sorry for that ant it stepped on, and the wilted flowed, and all the miserable creatures.
But ultimately, the ego doesn't think anyone deserves to live period. Someone disagrees with me, or does something less efficiently than I... I wish they would die! They deserve it. A quiet wish for suicide, that's what replaces the ignorant bliss, reduced to base ignorance out of fear, reinforced with all the exposure and illusions of trust crumble.
And appearances become important. "Who me?!?" "I never did!"
Divine Comedy? Or tragedy?
Interesting post.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,301
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Re: Do you deserve to live? [Re: Icelander]
#13556926 - 11/29/10 11:18 AM (13 years, 3 months ago) |
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So I deserve to live?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Do you deserve to live? [Re: Rahz]
#13557083 - 11/29/10 12:07 PM (13 years, 3 months ago) |
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no
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
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Posts: 13,018
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Re: Do you deserve to live? [Re: Icelander]
#13565850 - 11/30/10 11:50 PM (13 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Take a step back and look at yourself. What you think, who you are, what you've done. All you accomplishments. All other animals and plants die from the look of it. Many like to think there is something especially worthwhile about humans and humanity. That we are deserving of an immortal soul.
If you believe it lets hear why. Discuss.
Quote:
There is no steady unretracing progress in this life; we do not advance through fixed gradations, and at the last one pause: - through infancy's unconscious spell, boyhood's thoughtless faith, adolescence' doubt (the common doom), then scepticism, then disbelief, resting at last in manhood's pondering of If. But once gone through, we trace the round again; and are infants, boys, and men, and Ifs eternally. Where lies the final harbour, whence we unmoor no sore? In what rapt ether sails the world, of which the weariest will never weary? Where is the foundling's father hidden? Our souls are like those orphans whose unwedded mothers die in bearing them: the secret of our paternity lies in their grave, and we must there to learn it.
-Herman Melville, Moby Dick
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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That's pretty intense.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Re: Do you deserve to live? [Re: Icelander]
#13566894 - 12/01/10 08:28 AM (13 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah, I camp a lot intense.
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