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Anonymous

Torture
    #1354365 - 03/06/03 09:34 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

sure, it's cruel and all, and i don't think any civilized people should use it as punishment or retribution... but i can't understand when people get all bent out of shape about using pain to extract information... i think that it's not so bad under controlled circumstances and with a purpose...

i mean... if some guy has planted a bomb somewhere in the city... and they've got to give him drugs and electrocute him to tell where it is... i don't see how it's that bad. i guess it can't work in practise though.... it certainly wouldn't be fairly and purposefully administered. but like with these 9-11 and al-qaeda guys they capture... of course they want information form them, and of course they're torturing them to get it... people are naive to think they aren't... i think they are... i just don't think it's that wrong.

any thoughts? i dunno... i hope you all don't think i'm crazy...


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Torture [Re: ]
    #1354424 - 03/06/03 09:53 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I suppose the problem is the slippery slope it leads you down. Part of the reason Bush insists we should oust Saddam is he uses torture. How serious can you take that when as we speak he's breaking international law by doing something complicated and extremely horrible to Sheik Mohammeds balls?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,808
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Torture [Re: ]
    #1354624 - 03/06/03 11:09 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I'm in the same boat. Your example of a guy with a bomb is a good one and a good enough reason for me..... but..... what if it turns out the guy is the wrong one and after torturing him in vain the bomb goes off anyway?

Tough call.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineTheCaptain
addict

Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 426
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
Re: Torture [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1354751 - 03/06/03 11:49 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

It is a slippery slope. But I agree with it, if we ARE indeed torturing the people who plan terrorist attacks.
From where I see it, If we transfer people to where they use torture, or even detain people that havent been given a trial, were no better than anyone else. I mean, christ- I would bet half those people they have detained were just foot soldiers and dont even know anything....


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"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."


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Anonymous

Re: Torture [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1354759 - 03/06/03 11:52 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

yes... routine torturing of POWs to get information is wrong. the police shouldn't be able to torture people they bust on drug charges to get them to tell where they got their dope from, etc.... there are certainly more situations where torture is not OK than when it is... i'm just saying that i think that there are times when it is indeed OK....


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Torture [Re: ]
    #1354801 - 03/06/03 12:08 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Seems everyone here forgets that the FBI released (information is from memory, so numerical accuracy may be off) the names of terrorists directly involved (on the planes) on 9/11. On the list was a dozen or more Saudi Arabians still alive in Saudi Arabia who had not left the country and were unlikely to be involved in any way.

The names on the list were NOT removed even after this fact was pointed out by the living Arabs themselves. So much for great intelligence.

Torture should NOT be allowed under any circumstance. Please do not let Bush brainwash you any further. The Bill of Rights has been almost completely dismantled (two men arrested for wearing "Peace" t-shirts at the mall!) and now you are ready to let more travesties happen in the name of "anti-terrorism".

Hitler used these same propaganda techniques to get the mass of citizens to look the other way when human atrocities were being committed. Every act of imhumanity was preceded by a massive softening-up period where quasi-justifications were used for doing horrific things to unpopular groups of people. Study history and learn from it.

If not, there will be no one to speak for you when the Drug Czar's stormtroopers torture you to find out who your marijuana dealer is.

THINK DAMMIT!




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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (03/06/03 03:34 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Torture [Re: Swami]
    #1354886 - 03/06/03 01:04 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

isn't keeping people in jail a form of torture? solitary confinement surely is...


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OfflineMushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD

Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Torture [Re: Swami]
    #1354945 - 03/06/03 01:30 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Nice one Swami!

Think about torture...

Bamboo under the fingernails..
Chinese water torture..
Bootikens..
The Garotte..
Iron Maiden..
The Rack..
Tormentum Insomniae..
Beatings..
Electrocution..
Hot Irons..
Psychological abuse..
Sexual Abuse..

We sure have come a long way.

http://www.omct.org/



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MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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OfflineToxicManM
Bite me, it's fun!
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/28/02
Posts: 6,478
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Last seen: 1 hour, 9 minutes
Re: Torture [Re: ]
    #1355387 - 03/06/03 06:07 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

How could any civilized society ever condone torture? Particularly when performed in the name of that society?


Who gets tortured? Who decides who gets tortured?

What happens when the wrong person gets tortured (it will happen)?

Who does the torturing? How are they chosen and trained?

What methods of torture will be acceptable or unacceptable? Who decides and how do they decide?

What happens to the person after they're tortured? If a decision is required, who makes the decision and how?

Who oversees all of this and makes sure it gets done "properly"?


Those are a few of the obvious questions that come up with a moment's reflection. And they suggest yet another question. Who gets to decide the answers to the above questions?


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Happy mushrooming!


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InvisibleTheHateCamel
Research &Development -DBK
Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 15,738
Re: Torture [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1355607 - 03/06/03 08:25 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

.


Edited by TheHateCamel (12/05/07 10:37 PM)


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InvisibleGabbaDj
BTH
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,449
Loc: By The Lake
Re: Torture [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #1355620 - 03/06/03 08:35 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I look at torture like I look at the death penalty..

You had better be pretty damn sure that the person your tortureing has the information your trying to get...

I was watching crossfire and they debated this issue. The guy against torture blew the other guy away with situations where dozens and dozens of people would be tortured in hopes that at least one of them knew something about a certain event..

Most often they could go through 40 people and 100 lies before getting a tiny bit of usefull information. This guy that we got now, he knows ALOT and Im all for tortureing him, but rounding up groups of people and tortureing them all.. Thats just out of the question..


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GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG          C8.com                    http://www.beatsopjefiets.com/   


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InvisibleTheHateCamel
Research &Development -DBK
Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 15,738
Re: Torture [Re: GabbaDj]
    #1355631 - 03/06/03 08:47 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

.


Edited by TheHateCamel (12/05/07 10:37 PM)


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Offlinezeronio
Stranger
Male

Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 2,349
Loc: Slovenia
Last seen: 3 months, 4 days
Re: Torture [Re: ]
    #1355777 - 03/06/03 11:35 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

So for example if I travel to USA and a police officer at the airport somehow thinks I'm suspicious I could get transported to Guantanamo and get tortured for several months until they find out I don't know anything about Al Quaeda?

Have you ever asked yourself how many of political prisoners held in Guantanamo have really something to do with terrorism? Or are they just random peasants who were working in their poppy fields in Afghanistan when they picked them up to make public think that the terrorists are behind bars? How come that one year of "collecting information" wasn't enough to convict them under the US laws?

What's going on there sounds really scary to me. Things like that happened in Soviet Union. :frown:   


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Torture [Re: ]
    #1355910 - 03/07/03 02:44 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

This is a tough one. I can easily envision situations where it is necessary to obtain information quickly in order to save lives, but "chemical debriefing" in combination with polygraphs and voice stress analysis is considered more effective than torture anyway.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Torture [Re: ]
    #1355920 - 03/07/03 02:52 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The Consititution only forbids torture of US citizens (though not explicitly). That said, there are other ways than painful torture to extract information.

The Israeli's version of our CIA has a method where they put the subject in a chair and simply push his head in different directions. After hours or even days of this constant pushing, the subject's neck becomes weakened and he will break 100% of the time, in order to keep his head from falling off.


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Offlinezeronio
Stranger
Male

Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 2,349
Loc: Slovenia
Last seen: 3 months, 4 days
Re: Torture [Re: Anonymous]
    #1355972 - 03/07/03 03:29 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

LOL I'm not an US citizen so I guess I'd better stay away from there. :grin:
I guess you're a little better than USSR since they tortured also their own citizens. 


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Anonymous

Re: Torture [Re: zeronio]
    #1355997 - 03/07/03 03:47 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I'll protect you Bro. :smile:


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Offlinezeronio
Stranger
Male

Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 2,349
Loc: Slovenia
Last seen: 3 months, 4 days
Re: Torture [Re: ]
    #1356045 - 03/07/03 04:22 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Oh... thanx! It's nice to have connections in high places.  :grin:

I'd confess everything in few seconds if they started to test electrical conductivity of my balls.  :crazy: 


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Anonymous

Re: Torture [Re: zeronio]
    #1356123 - 03/07/03 05:00 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Actually those tests are only painful for the first few hours.  After that you don't feel a thing.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Torture [Re: ]
    #1356214 - 03/07/03 05:52 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

America admits suspects died in interrogations
from independent.co.uk By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles

07 March 2003

American military officials acknowledged yesterday that two prisoners captured in Afghanistan in December had been killed while under interrogation at Bagram air base north of Kabul ? reviving concerns that the US is resorting to torture in its treatment of Taliban fighters and suspected al-Qa'ida operatives.

A spokesman for the air base confirmed that the official cause of death of the two men was "homicide", contradicting earlier accounts that one had died of a heart attack and the other from a pulmonary embolism.

The men's death certificates, made public earlier this week, showed that one captive, known only as Dilawar, 22, from the Khost region, died from "blunt force injuries to lower extremities complicating coronary artery disease" while another captive, Mullah Habibullah, 30, suffered from blood clot in the lung that was exacerbated by a "blunt force injury".

US officials previously admitted using "stress and duress" on prisoners including sleep deprivation, denial of medication for battle injuries, forcing them to stand or kneel for hours on end with hoods on, subjecting them to loud noises and sudden flashes of light and engaging in culturally humiliating practices such as having them kicked by female officers.

While the US claims this still constitutes "humane" treatment, human rights groups including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have denounced it as torture as defined by international treaty. The US has also come under heavy criticism for its reported policy of handing suspects over to countries such as Jordan, Egypt or Morocco, where torture techniques are an established part of the security apparatus. Legally, Human Rights Watch says, there is no distinction between using torture directly and subcontracting it out.

Some American politicians have argued that torture could be justified in this case if it helped prevent terror attacks on US citizens. Jonathan Turley, a prominent law professor at George Washington University, countered that embracing torture would be "suicide for a nation once viewed as the very embodiment of human rights".

Torture is part of a long list of concerns about the Bush administration's respect for international law, after the extrajudicial killing of al-Qa'ida suspects by an unmanned drone in Yemen and the the indefinite detention of "enemy combatants" at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, a number of whom have committed or attempted to commit suicide.

President Bush appeared to encourage extra-judicial solutions in his State of the Union address in January when he talked of al-Qa'ida members being arrested or meeting "a different fate". "Let's put it this way," he said in a tone that appalled many, "they are no longer a problem to the United States and our friends and allies."


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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