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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Are you sick with [Re: Diploid]
    #13481691 - 11/14/10 08:03 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Not so sure about that.

Well, the reported results (40% which is significantly better than random chance) are a guaranteed win of the JREF Million Dollar Challenge.

With nothing to lose, a million bucks to win, somehow, Dr. Rupert Sheldrake is not a millionaire and has to work a job every day to pay the bills.

What does that tell me about his claims?

BTW, if he doesn't like the JREF, there are many more similar challenges around the world.





Well, a quick google search turns up part of the row between Rupert and JREF.

Quote:

The January 2000 issue of Dog World magazine included an article on a possible sixth sense in dogs, which discussed some of my research. In this article Randi was quoted as saying that in relation to canine ESP, "We at the JREF [James Randi Educational Foundation] have tested these claims. They fail." No details were given of these tests.

I emailed James Randi to ask for details of this JREF research. He did not reply. He ignored a second request for information too.

I then asked members of the JREF Scientific Advisory Board to help me find out more about this claim. They did indeed help by advising Randi to reply. In an email sent on Februaury 6, 2000 he told me that the tests he referred to were not done at the JREF, but took place "years ago" and were "informal". They involved two dogs belonging to a friend of his that he observed over a two-week period. All records had been lost. He wrote: "I overstated my case for doubting the reality of dog ESP based on the small amount of data I obtained. It was rash and improper of me to do so."




http://www.sheldrake.org/D&C/controversies/randi.html

The Wikipedia article on Sheldrake mentions he has the support of some scientists, but not all.

Quote:

Sheldrake's ideas have resonated with the general public and some physicists such as David Bohm. The idea that fields may influence cells has even received cautious support from biologists Janis Roze and Sue Ann Miller. However, Sheldrake's work has met with a hostile reception from other scientists. Neurophysiologist and consciousness researcher Christof Koch, for example, has stated that discussing Sheldrake's ideas is a "waste of time," given the absence of hard, physical evidence and Sheldrake's lack of understanding of modern neurobiology.




Quote:

Germano Resconi and Masoud Nikravesh are sympathetic to Sheldrake's ideas, and base their concept of morphic computing directly upon Sheldrake's morphic fields and morphogenetic fields, but acknowledge that "Morphic fields and its subset morphogenetic fields have been at the center of controversy for many years in mainstream science and the hypothesis is not accepted by some scientists who consider it a pseudoscience."

Some quantum physicists have supported Sheldrake's hypothesis. The late David Bohm suggested that Sheldrake's hypothesis was in keeping with his own ideas on what he terms "implicate" and "explicate" order. Hans-Peter Dürr has called for further discussion of Sheldrake's hypothesis, describing it as one of the first to reconcile 20th-century breakthroughs in physics, which emphasize fields and the indivisible nature of matter, with biology, which he says for the most part remains rooted in 19th-century Newtonian concepts of particles and separateness. Others, like biologist Michael Klymkowsky, disagree, contending that "[w]e live in a macroscopic world. Quantum effects are essentially irrelevant".




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Sheldrake

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Sheldrake's work by second guessing his motivation regarding skeptic-driven tests.  Perhaps he has good reasons for not applying.

I'm far from a believer in Sheldrake's work but I have had my own experiences that leave me open-minded regarding telepathy.

In the mid-80's when I was studying under a Lakota medicine man I had a telepathic experience.  He held a small peyote ceremony for myself and one other man, a sundancer.  Each of us drank peyote tea.  He gave the sundancer a mug, himself a water glass and he gave me a large beer stein.  I drank it in two draughts.

Later that evening after I drove home I fell into some visions.  I ended up in a vast desert and met Mescalito.  After that the medicine man came to me audibly and began to teach me.  I questioned him about it the next time I saw him and his answers to my questions led me to believe we were using telepathy.

That anecdote proves nothing but it does leave me open to the possibility of telepathy.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Are you sick with [Re: Diploid]
    #13481696 - 11/14/10 08:05 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I forgot to add I thought that video I posted was pretty cheesy.  Statistically it could be called the fallacy of a small sample.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Are you sick with [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #13482594 - 11/14/10 12:03 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Sheldrake's work by second guessing his motivation regarding skeptic-driven tests.




One cannot know his specific motivation, but for so many people to clamor for attention as to their pet paranormal project as to create websites and write books and papers and lecture and do studies and such; and then to turn their back on outside confirmation certainly sounds highly suspicious and is not science in any form.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Are you sick with [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #13482601 - 11/14/10 12:05 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I notice that you did not respond to my post wherein I clearly showed that personal experience is not necessarily valid. Any reason?


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Are you sick with [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13482669 - 11/14/10 12:30 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Sheldrake's work by second guessing his motivation regarding skeptic-driven tests.




One cannot know his specific motivation, but for so many people to clamor for attention as to their pet paranormal project as to create websites and write books and papers and lecture and do studies and such; and then to turn their back on outside confirmation certainly sounds highly suspicious and is not science in any form.




Sheldrake turned his back, or were you referring to someone else?  He's published in peer-reviewed journals afaik.  What's to bitch about?

Peers were suspicious of Darwin too, at first.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Are you sick with [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13482682 - 11/14/10 12:33 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I notice that you did not respond to my post wherein I clearly showed that personal experience is not necessarily valid. Any reason?




Didn't notice it, but I'll address that now.

Confirmation bias

Even scientists are guilty of misinterpreting data and they are trained in observation. Is this something new to you?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Are you sick with [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #13482698 - 11/14/10 12:36 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Explain confirmation bias in regards the examples given please.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Are you sick with [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13482723 - 11/14/10 12:41 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

It is only related to it.  I was using it as an example that scientists can err just as much as lay persons.

Which examples are you referring to?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Are you sick with [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #13482741 - 11/14/10 12:46 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Let's start with the CD vs. SCD audiophile test. As to confirmation bias, most believed there was a significant difference and the results showed none. And yet many audiophiles still insisted they could hear the difference IN SPITE OF their inability to do so.

This goes to the heart of your contention that personal experience is a valid metric.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Are you sick with [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13482864 - 11/14/10 01:20 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Let's start with the CD vs. SCD audiophile test. As to confirmation bias, most believed there was a significant difference and the results showed none. And yet many audiophiles still insisted they could hear the difference IN SPITE OF their inability to do so.

This goes to the heart of your contention that personal experience is a valid metric.




No, it merely shows that confirmation bias can occur whether the subject is a seasoned professional scientist or a lay person.  It does not invalidate personal experience as a whole under any and all circumstances.

I go back to the study of prayer.  You and I have been round and round on this one, but it bears repeating.  Most, if not all, studies on the efficacy of prayer are invalid because the researchers do not understand the dynamics of prayer.  So we turn to them because they are "experts?"  The idea is risible.  If you want an expert on prayer you go to one who is an expert on prayer and test, by personal experience, their conclusions, not an "expert" that tests prayer.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Are you sick with [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #13482909 - 11/14/10 01:33 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

It does not invalidate personal experience as a whole under any and all circumstances.



*sigh* You know better than to strawman. I chose my phrasing very carefully to avoid this.

Quote:

Most, if not all, studies on the efficacy of prayer are invalid because the researchers do not understand the dynamics of prayer.



In order to make this statement, it would mean that you DO (or believe you do) understand the dynamics of prayer and that you could come up with a valid test.

I may be jumping the gun, but I expect a response in the neighborhood of: You have self-vaidated and have no need to convince others.

And then we are back to the lack of external validation. :shrug:

As to your personal story: I always have to turn to survivor syndrome, whether it be illness or accident. Those that die never claim answered prayers.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Are you sick with [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13482950 - 11/14/10 01:45 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

It does not invalidate personal experience as a whole under any and all circumstances.



*sigh* You know better than to strawman. I chose my phrasing very carefully to avoid this.




I didn't create a straw man.  I merely stated the obvious.

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Most, if not all, studies on the efficacy of prayer are invalid because the researchers do not understand the dynamics of prayer.



In order to make this statement, it would mean that you DO (or believe you do) understand the dynamics of prayer and that you could come up with a valid test.

I may be jumping the gun, but I expect a response in the neighborhood of: You have self-vaidated and have no need to convince others.

And then we are back to the lack of external validation. :shrug:

As to your personal story: I always have to turn to survivor syndrome, whether it be illness or accident. Those that die never claim answered prayers.




Yes, I could design a study that tests the actual efficacy of prayer.  Are you suggesting we do this here?  If so, we would need someone capable of praying within the conditions of prayer.  Who would that be?

Many people mistakenly think that God promises to answer prayer for life or health.  He simply doesn't.  If you can find a verse that suggests that I'd be happy to review it.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Are you sick with [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #13482987 - 11/14/10 01:55 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I didn't create a straw man.  I merely stated the obvious.



I did not make that point, but a different one that you failed to directly acknowledge or refute.

Quote:

Yes, I could design a study that tests the actual efficacy of prayer.  Are you suggesting we do this here?  If so, we would need someone capable of praying within the conditions of prayer.  Who would that be?



I think it would be awesome if you could do it. I am not sure who would participate as I cannot speak for anyone else.

All I can say to that is that such a test cannot be ambigious and the pass/fail standards must be clearly laid out beforehand.

Quote:

Many people mistakenly think that God promises to answer prayer for life or health.




Many people mistakenly think that God promises to answer prayer. And therein lies our difference.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Are you sick with [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13483036 - 11/14/10 02:06 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

I didn't create a straw man.  I merely stated the obvious.



I did not make that point, but a different one that you failed to directly acknowledge or refute.




Oh, OK then.  I see how you would say that.

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Yes, I could design a study that tests the actual efficacy of prayer.  Are you suggesting we do this here?  If so, we would need someone capable of praying within the conditions of prayer.  Who would that be?



I think it would be awesome if you could do it. I am not sure who would participate as I cannot speak for anyone else.

All I can say to that is that such a test cannot be ambigious and the pass/fail standards must be clearly laid out beforehand.




Of course.

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Many people mistakenly think that God promises to answer prayer for life or health.




Many people mistakenly think that God promises to answer prayer. And therein lies our difference.




It's fine to have differences of opinions as long as the relationship is healthy.  I was talking about your brother last night in a conversation about "Christians."  Baptists are well-known for division under the pretext of right doctrine.  When I was younger I used to attempt to find commonality with others in the way of belief.  Not so with most Baptists.  The go down a litany of doctrines looking for disagreement, rather than commonality.  Then, they will proceed to tell you where you're wrong.  It seems the only friends they can have are ideological clones, and sometimes then not for very long.

Do you read the King James version of the Bible?

Yes.  If it was good enough for Paul it is good enough for me.

Check.  Are you washed in the Blood?

Yes.

Check.  Baptized and circumcised?

Yes.

Check.  What about tongues?

They might be.

WHAT?!?!  Haven't you read the Bible, son?!?!?  I thought we might be friends but you're too messed up.

Jebus please us.  Stay away from folks like that.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Are you sick with [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #13483061 - 11/14/10 02:14 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

It is very sad that neither my dad (atheist) nor my mom (Catholic) nor my grandmother (Presbyterian - when she was alive )will visit my brother because of the cold reception from his wife and kids and friends/neighbors. Judgemental to the max.


The Heretic

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well, are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are your Christian or Buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, Me too! Are your Episcopalian or Baptist? He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are your Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord? He said, Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are your Original Baptist Church of God or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Are you sick with [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13483108 - 11/14/10 02:25 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
It is very sad that neither my dad (atheist) nor my mom (Catholic) nor my grandmother (Presbyterian - when she was alive )will visit my brother because of the cold reception from his wife and kids and friends/neighbors. Judgemental to the max.


The Heretic

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well, are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are your Christian or Buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, Me too! Are your Episcopalian or Baptist? He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are your Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord? He said, Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are your Original Baptist Church of God or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.





Yep.  There ya go.

An ecumenical Christian went to heaven and met St. Peter at the Golden Gate.  St. Peter asked, "What denomination?"  He told him.  So Peter says,"Well, we have a lot to chose from here.  Over here you got your Roman Catholics and over here you got your Episcopalians and over there you got your Methodists."  Then the ecumenical saw a high stone fence about 60 feet tall in the shape of a circle.  He asked Peter what that was.  Peter said, "Oh, that's the Baptists.  They think they're the only ones here."

:rimshot:

Yes, judgmental.  That's crushing to hear.  I have learned there are three types of people to limit contact with: abandoners, irresponsibles and critics.  The judgmental people are in the latter category.  In Christendom they're called legalistic, similar to the scribes and Pharisees.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Are you sick with [Re: soldatheero]
    #13486511 - 11/15/10 07:13 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

soldatheero said:
AIDS isn't caused by HIV it's caused by extreme stress on the immune system usually due to poverty.




Your assertion is that a person can develop AIDS without being infected with HIV? :strokebeard:




I find it remarkable that you'd continue to post in this thread while completely ignoring my question. If AIDS wasn't caused by HIV, then I'm sure you can point to one example in which a person contracted AIDS without having HIV. :smirk:


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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