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OfflineEllis Dee
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A sensual thought, innate ideas
    #1347334 - 03/02/03 05:52 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Some believe that people are born with certain ideas, like animals born knowing how to get food. Instincts can be called ideas you're born with or pre-disposed to. Others feel that when you're born your mind is a blank slate and you get your predispositions by experience and environment.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Offlinesocratesmind
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Re: A sensual thought, innate ideas [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1347469 - 03/02/03 07:11 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

well you must be preprogrammed to a certain extent. say how to breath,blink and just basic upkeep of our bodies is probably pre-programmed or we are defined by a set of pre-determined rules to respond to situations and uphold and keep doing those actions i.e. breathing sincee air filling the luungs feels good and holding breath feels bad keep doing the good? something like that just my .02


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Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded.
- Abraham Lincoln: Speech in the Illinois House of Representatives, Dec 18, 1840.


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Offlineenotake2
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Re: A sensual thought, innate ideas [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1347832 - 03/03/03 01:39 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The baby has an innate need to suck whether or not it is the mothers breast. There are also basic facial expressions that are universal that correspond with emotions (happy, sad, fear, anger, disgust, surprise, n/s what else). They have simple reflexes too. Some aspects of learning are innate ie conditioning and opperant conditioning, though they can be modied.

I have read some texts, though, that say beyond basic survival behaviours, behaviour is largely socialised / enculturated.


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Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.

"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium

"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: A sensual thought, innate ideas [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1348398 - 03/03/03 08:03 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Humans have no instincts.

We do have biological drives, though.

-RebelSteve


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Namaste.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: A sensual thought, innate ideas [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1348459 - 03/03/03 08:38 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I know that women who have recently given birth will start lactating when they hear the cry of an infant. How would you classify this, as instinct or a biological drive?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineMithril
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Re: A sensual thought, innate ideas [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1348646 - 03/03/03 08:35 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Also, I remember some replies from Kant to this question.
The only one I can remember of hand is 'number'.
A baby knows that 2 candies in its hand are more than 1 candy.
There's a bunch of others. I gotta restudy this stuff sometime.


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Offlinemr freedom
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Re: A sensual thought, innate ideas [Re: Evolving]
    #1350366 - 03/04/03 04:31 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

It's called a "reflexive response"; look it up we have MANY of them. They are BIOLOGICAL in nature; meaning that the exist because of human biology.

Humans do have instincts. How many and of what kind I really don't know; I only have so much time alloted to me ya know.

I'll give you one though. An infant when you blow in their faces will hold their breath; instinct or reflexive response????


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OfflineStrangeDays
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Re: A sensual thought, innate ideas [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1351308 - 03/05/03 03:17 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Ego - The False Center
by Osho
The first thing to be understood is what ego is. A child is born. A child is born without any knowledge, any consciousness of his own self. And when a child is born the first thing he becomes aware of is not himself; the first thing he becomes aware of is the other. It is natural, because the eyes open outwards, the hands touch others, the ears listen to others, the tongue tastes food and the nose smells the outside. All these senses open outwards.

That is what birth means. Birth means coming into this world, the world of the outside. So when a child is born, he is born into this world. He opens his eyes, sees others. 'Other' means the thou. He becomes aware of the mother first. Then, by and by, he becomes aware of his own body. That too is the other, that too belongs to the world. He is hungry and he feels the body; his need is satisfied, he forgets the body.

This is how a child grows. First he becomes aware of you, thou, other, and then by and by, in contrast to you, thou, he becomes aware of himself.

This awareness is a reflected awareness. He is not aware of who he is. He is simply aware of the mother and what she thinks about him. If she smiles, if she appreciates the child, if she says, "You are beautiful," if she hugs and kisses him, the child feels good about himself. Now an ego is born.

Through appreciation, love, care, he feels he is good, he feels he is valuable, he feels he has some significance.

A center is born.

But this center is a reflected center. It is not his real being. He does not know who he is; he simply knows what others think about him. And this is the ego: the reflection, what others think. If nobody thinks that he is of any use, nobody appreciates him, nobody smiles, then too an ego is born: an ill ego; sad, rejected, like a wound; feeling inferior, worthless. This too is the ego. This too is a reflection.

First the mother - and mother means the world in the beginning. Then others will join the mother, and the world goes on growing. And the more the world grows, the more complex the ego becomes, because many others' opinions are reflected.

The ego is an accumulated phenomenon, a by-product of living with others. If a child lives totally alone, he will never come to grow an ego. But that is not going to help. He will remain like an animal. That doesn't mean that he will come to know the real self, no.

The real can be known only through the false, so the ego is a must. One has to pass through it. It is a discipline. The real can be known only through the illusion. You cannot know the truth directly. First you have to know that which is not true. First you have to encounter the untrue. Through that encounter you become capable of knowing the truth. If you know the false as the false, truth will dawn upon you.

Ego is a need; it is a social need, it is a social by-product. The society means all that is around you - not you, but all that is around you. All, minus you, is the society. And everybody reflects. You will go to school and the teacher will reflect who you are. You will be in friendship with other children and they will reflect who you are. By and by, everybody is adding to your ego, and everybody is trying to modify it in such a way that you don't become a problem to the society.

They are not concerned with you.

They are concerned with the society.

Society is concerned with itself, and that's how it should be.

They are not concerned that you should become a self-knower. They are concerned that you should become an efficient part in the mechanism of the society. You should fit into the pattern. So they are trying to give you an ego that fits with the society. They teach you morality. Morality means giving you an ego which will fit with the society. If you are immoral, you will always be a misfit somewhere or other. That's why we put criminals in the prisons - not that they have done something wrong, not that by putting them in the prisons we are going to improve them, no. They simply don't fit. They are troublemakers. They have certain types of egos of which the society doesn't approve. If the society approves, everything is good.

One man kills somebody - he is a murderer.

And the same man in wartime kills thousands - he becomes a great hero. The society is not bothered by a murder, but the murder should be commited for the society - then it is okay. The society doesn't bother about morality.

Morality means only that you should fit with the society.

If the society is at war, then the morality changes.

If the society is at peace, then there is a different morality.

Morality is a social politics. It is diplomacy. And each child has to be brought up in such a way that he fits into the society, that's all. Because society is interested in efficient members. Society is not interested that you should attain to self-knowledge.

The society creates an ego because the ego can be controlled and manipulated. The self can never be controlled or manipulated. Nobody has ever heard of the society controlling a self - not possible.

And the child needs a center; the child is completely unaware of his own center. The society gives him a center and the child is by and by convinced that this is his center, the ego that society gives.

A child comes back to his home - if he has come first in his class, the whole family is happy. You hug and kiss him, and you take the child on your shoulders and dance and you say, "What a beautiful child! You are a pride to us." You are giving him an ego, a subtle ego. And if the child comes home dejected, unsuccessful, a failure - he couldn't pass, or he has just been on the back bench - then nobody appreciates him and the child feels rejected. He will try harder next time, because the center feels shaken.

Ego is always shaken, always in search of food, that somebody should appreciate it. That's why you continuously ask for attention.

You get the idea of who you are from others.

It is not a direct experience.

It is from others that you get the idea of who you are. They shape your center. This center is false, because you carry your real center. That is nobody's business. Nobody shapes it.

You come with it.

You are born with it.

So you have two centers. One center you come with, which is given by existence itself. That is the self. And the other center, which is created by the society, is the ego. It is a false thing - and it is a very great trick. Through the ego the society is controlling you. You have to behave in a certain way, because only then does the society appreciate you. You have to walk in a certain way; you have to laugh in a certain way; you have to follow certain manners, a morality, a code. Only then will the society appreciate you, and if it doesn't, you ego will be shaken. And when the ego is shaken, you don't know where you are, who you are.

The rest of the paper at: http://www.deoxy.org/egofalse.htm



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