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OfflinePreparationH
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Self defense or not? (VIDEO)
    #13469898 - 11/11/10 05:21 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)


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InvisibleI_was_the_walrus
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Re: Self defense or not? (VIDEO) [Re: PreparationH] * 1
    #13469927 - 11/11/10 05:26 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The first shot was self defense. Done deal. Anything after that was pretty malicious.

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Offlinedestructo_low
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Re: Self defense or not? (VIDEO) [Re: PreparationH]
    #13469936 - 11/11/10 05:28 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe it was self defense when the guy was coming at him. I'm not sure if the other guy had a gun or not, but when the dude started running, and he chased, still shooting, it comes out of the territory of self defense. He eliminated the threat and turned into the attacker.


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There is a molecule for every purpose. There are only actions and reactions. Cut out the middle men. Everything I say is a lie.

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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Self defense or not? (VIDEO) [Re: destructo_low]
    #13469965 - 11/11/10 05:33 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

destructo_low said:
Maybe it was self defense when the guy was coming at him. I'm not sure if the other guy had a gun or not, but when the dude started running, and he chased, still shooting, it comes out of the territory of self defense. He eliminated the threat and turned into the attacker.



:shrug: I agree with ya there but if the man DID in fact have a gun, honestly if it were up to me(which it isn't) I'd be congratulating the marshal.  The guy was non-confrontational and backing away the whole time then the last time macho man walks toward him like he's about to shhot/stab/strike w/e he gets player owned.  regardless I laughed when I saw it.

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InvisibleCycleThoughts
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Re: Self defense or not? (VIDEO) [Re: destructo_low]
    #13470003 - 11/11/10 05:41 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Someone points a gun at you, regardless if they're fleeing, they're still a threat.

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OfflineHumility
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Re: Self defense or not? (VIDEO) [Re: PreparationH] * 1
    #13470005 - 11/11/10 05:41 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

You can't run a man down and gun him down and talk about you killed him in self defense.  There were elements of self defense there; obviously the VERY beginning of the attack qualifies.

It looks like that marshall chased that guy down at least 30 feet and shot him in the back multiple times.

How is that possibly "self defense"?


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Edited by Humility (11/11/10 05:42 PM)

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InvisibleCycleThoughts
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Re: Self defense or not? (VIDEO) [Re: Humility]
    #13470020 - 11/11/10 05:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

How many times did her fire his gun?  I can only see 2, the initial shot, then as he charges him he shoots a second time.  The rest of the confrontation takes place off camera.  The first two shots were justified, if the other guy had a gun.

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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Self defense or not? (VIDEO) [Re: Humility]
    #13470029 - 11/11/10 05:47 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Humility said:
You can't run a man down and gun him down and talk about you killed him in self defense.  There were elements of self defense there; obviously the VERY beginning of the attack qualifies.

It looks like that marshall chased that guy down at least 30 feet and shot him in the back multiple times.

How is that possibly "self defense"?



that guy was headed for a taxi, which was headed for the local airport, which he was then going to fly around earth and sneak up on the marshal...  Cut and dry case. lol

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Self defense or not? (VIDEO) [Re: destructo_low]
    #13470144 - 11/11/10 06:08 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

destructo_low said:
Maybe it was self defense when the guy was coming at him. I'm not sure if the other guy had a gun or not, but when the dude started running, and he chased, still shooting, it comes out of the territory of self defense. He eliminated the threat and turned into the attacker.




Quote:

destructo_low said:
Maybe it was self defense when the guy was coming at him. I'm not sure if the other guy had a gun or not, but when the dude started running, and he chased, still shooting, it comes out of the territory of self defense. He eliminated the threat and turned into the attacker.




guy had a weapon, cant say for sure it was a gun but at about 1:31 he
pulls something up, treats it like a pistol, he tucked it back into his
waistband and you can see it reflect again at about 1:58 and again at 2:07

it was self defense, the cop cant let him get to a position of cover so
he can return fire or get his boys so they can help return fire, another
example of why you kill whom ever you shoot

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Self defense or not? (VIDEO) [Re: CycleThoughts]
    #13470162 - 11/11/10 06:11 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

CycleThoughts said:
How many times did her fire his gun?  I can only see 2, the initial shot, then as he charges him he shoots a second time.  The rest of the confrontation takes place off camera.  The first two shots were justified, if the other guy had a gun.





it looked like he was about to shoot a 3rd time but the assailant fell, I didnt see a muzzle flash for a 3rd shot

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OfflineThe Vapor
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Re: Self defense or not? (VIDEO) [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13470200 - 11/11/10 06:19 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I would say it is self defense. Shooting someone and then making sure the problem is dealt with is still self defense, especially if the other guy had a gun like the Marshall said he did.
Quote:


Matthew Itkowitz, an off-duty deputy U.S. marshal, was being beaten and threatened with a gun in an alley off Melrose Avenue when, in fear for his life, he managed to draw his own weapon and fatally shoot his attacker. At least, that's the story Itkowitz told Los Angeles police. What really happened that night in the Fairfax district is less clear-cut. Man in the red shirt is the U.S. Marshall




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Offlinej0nnyb0y05
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Re: Self defense or not? (VIDEO) [Re: The Vapor] * 1
    #13470225 - 11/11/10 06:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I'm on the same page as most here. It seemed like he was initially threatened (I didn't seem him brandish a gun in his face) and he was walking away when it looked like the marshall was still exchanging words. He then continued to walk at the man, and he just started firing like he was in nam. First shot defense (maybe), then the rest is just to make sure he killed him.


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.....Healing Of People Everywhere.....


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OfflineChubba
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Re: Self defense or not? (VIDEO) [Re: PreparationH]
    #13470309 - 11/11/10 06:38 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

IF the guy had a gun/threatened with it, killing was justified.

Could it have been handled better? Yes.

At any point the guy could have turned around and started firing.

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InvisibleArden
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Re: Self defense or not? (VIDEO) [Re: j0nnyb0y05]
    #13470324 - 11/11/10 06:39 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Unable to decode blurry movements due to video quality.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Self defense or not? (VIDEO) [Re: PreparationH]
    #13470326 - 11/11/10 06:40 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Running him down is self defense.  Like Pris says, you cant let him get cover, get the upper hand and then kill you.

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OfflineHumility
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Re: Self defense or not? (VIDEO) [Re: DieCommie] * 1
    #13470940 - 11/11/10 08:37 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Lol you guys, this isn't the military.  I am a voluntaryist for christs' sake; I believe in as few laws as ABSOLUTELY possible (I actually believe in zero laws, but rather community enforced guidelines)

In a voluntaryist world, you would NOT be able to defend SHOOTING A MAN IN THE BACK.  Not under these circumstances.

You guys have to understand, yeah you can talk big shit about what you would do on the Internet and what you would do in the privacy of your homes.  People talk big all the time about how they would gun other people down

But actually being out on the street and getting all fired up, being enraged or whatever because you two were just arguing and shooting a man, then as he runs, running after him for 10-15 feet and shooting him IN HIS BACK and then as he continues to run after the second shot following him further another 10 feet+ and at LEAST shooting him one more time is not just something that a community is going to tolerate.  This is AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR.  This guy thinks in a certain way, and his way of thinking is basically "I am so afraid in general of being hurt that if you make me think you're going to hut me, I will kill you."

If he didn't feel that way his first response wouldn't be to chase someone down and gun them down.  The way the guy acted APPEARED malicious.  He was indignant that someone would DARE attempt to assault him, and he was going to show this guy who was the bigger man.

Violence, force, is to be administered in a carefully measured and appropriately-meted out manner.

If you're afraid of the guy pulling his gun, you should shoot him and then run to your vehicle, or run away.  If you afraid of "his boys" being around the corner, you certainly wouldn't follow him running down the street.

Here's a question: if the guy has no weapons on him, only his fists and this altercation happened, was the Marshall justified?  What if the guy had a knife?  Whether someone is armed or

In law, there is a concept known as "appropriate level of response".  If you own land in Texas and an 8 year old girl wanders onto your property and is picking flowers and you SHOOT HER DEAD are you in the right because she was trespassing?  APPROPRIATE level of response when utilizing violence is an important concept that cannot be ignored.

Obviously, appropriate is a subjective term and will vary depending on whom you ask.


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InvisibleCycleThoughts
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Re: Self defense or not? (VIDEO) [Re: Humility]
    #13470987 - 11/11/10 08:46 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

That's why we mentioned the gun.  If he had a knife, it was inappropriate, but if he had a gun, he could've simply turned around and returned fire.  Whether or not the guy had a gun is the deciding factor in this case for me.

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OfflineHumility
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Re: Self defense or not? (VIDEO) [Re: CycleThoughts] * 1
    #13471023 - 11/11/10 08:52 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I would love to see some of you shroom-lovin folk run and gun down some dude and then have a trip.  Maybe that would put things back into perspective?

What part of becoming One is that?


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Offlinepyl91


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Re: Self defense or not? (VIDEO) [Re: Humility]
    #13471024 - 11/11/10 08:52 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Humility, I'm with you man, but I know there will be many who say this is idealistic and could never work in reality (lol, reality). The only valid point I can think of is a "heat of the moment" type thing, where he was so scared/enraged that he couldn't control himself. I didn't watch the video so I can't really say if it applies in this case.

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OfflineHumility
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Re: Self defense or not? (VIDEO) [Re: pyl91]
    #13471084 - 11/11/10 09:02 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Pyl I understand where you're coming from and you may well be right.  Sometimes the situation does take command of us and makes us act differently than we normally would.


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