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OfflineMind Transcribing
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Re: Aikido [Re: domite]
    #13453602 - 11/08/10 12:38 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

They do indeed, thanks for the info! :thumbup:


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Aikido [Re: Hashishins]
    #13453610 - 11/08/10 12:39 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I've trained in aikido for about 9 years. I love it. It has taken me to Japan a couple times. Once for my blackbelt test.

I hear many people say that Aikido isn't realistic. Why is it that it is one of the main martial arts that have been adapted by police forces worldwide? Police don't use stuff that doesn't work. A lot of the exercises that you see that don't look realistic are just that-exercises. We often practice in over exaggerated ways to train certain principles.

I had a friend that I was drinking with the other night who was getting boastful about how he wrestled in state and that nobody could possibly do anything to his wrist. He had had mixed training-jujutsu, wrestling, etc and said nobody had ever been able to do anything to his wrist. Well, I quickly grabbed his wrist and twisted in back into kotegaishi. He submitted in seconds.

All that aside, it is a fantastic practice. It has taught me so much about posture and confidence. It's interesting to hear Duneraver say he likes something more flowing. I can't imagine anything being more flowing than aikido. I guess it depends on the style and teacher though. I LOVE Aikido, and I hope you do too.

What style of aikido are you planning to study? There are different styles that emphasize different aspects. Some more martial, some more flowy. I think they're all good.

In response to the MMA fans, I think if your main objective is learning how to kick ass, then that is probably the best path. If you are looking for a meaningful classical martial ART experience that teaches a LOT more than just how to kick ass, then aikido might be for you.


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"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 

Edited by nicechrisman (11/08/10 12:43 PM)

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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Aikido [Re: nicechrisman]
    #13454289 - 11/08/10 03:24 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I actually get to teach aikido class tonight. I think I'm gonna work on entries and techniques against yokomenuchi attack. Yokomenuchi is an attack that perhaps could be describes as a downward diagonal "karate chop". In real life, most opponents wouldn't be likely to do this open handed, but more likely with a club, bottle, knife slash, etc. It's a fun energy to blend with and can be countered in many fun ways.


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"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 

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OfflineConnor4050
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Re: Aikido [Re: nicechrisman]
    #13454343 - 11/08/10 03:33 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

no, learn Muay Thai.

Professional fighters learn the best martial arts.

You hardly ever see any professional fighters spec'd in Alkido. They're almost always spec'd in muay thai or bjj or kickboxing or something.

some of the best fighters in the world are spec'd in muay thai. Like Anderson Silva


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Offlinedomite
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Re: Aikido [Re: nicechrisman]
    #13454347 - 11/08/10 03:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I compete in combat sports and I def. don't think the answer is "just train MMA instead" even if all you want to do is "kick ass."

Most MMA gyms are either good BJJ schools with half-assed boxing programs, or just half-assed all around.

MMA is a rule set that requires familiarity with all kinds of stuff that isn't really going to come up in most situations, and being good at boxing, or wrestling, or submission grappling, or muay thai is much better than being a beginner at all of them, unless you are actually in a cage fighting comp.

I took aikido, and it isn't rubbish by any means, but  I was just saying from what I have seen judo is very similar and more "to the point" if you will.

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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Aikido [Re: domite]
    #13454421 - 11/08/10 03:48 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

aikido is cool.  Go for it.  Lol it looks like its kind of like judo in that i hope you're ready to fall down alot.

since it seems like people are just kind of randomly throwing stuff out there, i will too.

Neither aikido or mma are tailored for self defense or any sort of realism.


Quote:

I had a friend that I was drinking with the other night who was getting boastful about how he wrestled in state and that nobody could possibly do anything to his wrist. He had had mixed training-jujutsu, wrestling, etc and said nobody had ever been able to do anything to his wrist. Well, I quickly grabbed his wrist and twisted in back into kotegaishi. He submitted in seconds.




Assuming this really happened, this was a fluke.  When i was younger i rolled with Plenty of competitive judo, bjj and wrestling people.  from any sort of natural position into the ornate aikido lock is unlikely against anyone, trained or untrained.  In my experience in sparring judo and aikido are completely ineffective against anyone of comparable size,  this is the conventional wisdom among people i talk to.


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Offlinedomite
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Re: Aikido [Re: truekimbo2]
    #13454487 - 11/08/10 04:01 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Nah, judo isn't useless man.

Judo teaches you how do grab a larger man by his clothes and dump him right on his head.

In terms or rolling, obviously BJJ will scrape any Judo though.

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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Aikido [Re: truekimbo2]
    #13454853 - 11/08/10 05:11 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:



Quote:

I had a friend that I was drinking with the other night who was getting boastful about how he wrestled in state and that nobody could possibly do anything to his wrist. He had had mixed training-jujutsu, wrestling, etc and said nobody had ever been able to do anything to his wrist. Well, I quickly grabbed his wrist and twisted in back into kotegaishi. He submitted in seconds.




Assuming this really happened, this was a fluke.  When i was younger i rolled with Plenty of competitive judo, bjj and wrestling people.  from any sort of natural position into the ornate aikido lock is unlikely against anyone, trained or untrained.  In my experience in sparring judo and aikido are completely ineffective against anyone of comparable size,  this is the conventional wisdom among people i talk to.



Not true. It works. How long did you train in Aikido? Maybe your training wasn't very good, or you didn't train long enough to develop good technique. I've trained in Aikido for 9 years. I can get into these positions in my sleep. There is a reason aikido is used by many police forces as well as UN peacekeeping forces. Because it works. They wouldn't use it if it didn't.

My first Aikido teacher was an ex cop and had tons of experience with handling uncooperative people. He knew how to teach it so that it works. I've also trained with Frank Doran sensei who used to teach hand to hand combat in the Marines. He now teaches Aikido. There are many different styles of Aikido. Just because you have seen one style, don't judge them all.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 

Edited by nicechrisman (11/08/10 05:15 PM)

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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Aikido [Re: nicechrisman]
    #13454993 - 11/08/10 05:39 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

i dunno what to say.  Even a normal person its pretty much impossible to hold onto their wrists or arms unless you're way stronger than them or can isolate it with your whole  body, much less apply a lock while they're hitting you.

Everything i've ever seen with aikido relied entirely on chereographed stuff with the other person being loose and slow, where in real life people get tense and jerky. 

I dunno thats just with locks.  With throws i would absolutely have to disagree with you.  The amount of times i've been successfully thrown in hundreds of hours of sparring is probably 10-20, and almost always because i was attempting to apply a standing neck choke (staying close to them and keeping my center of balance high).

If you've seen those people use aikido effectively, its probably because they're used to having to restrain people professionally and know how to do that, not because aikido teaches you how to do that.

Lol, if we're ever in a bar together i'll gladly make a similar boast as your friend.


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OfflineAcaterpillar
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Re: Aikido [Re: nicechrisman]
    #13454998 - 11/08/10 05:40 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

There are ridiculous amounts of police forces in the world and the variety of martial arts they train in are numerous. Having the police practice a martial art doesn't legitimize it.

That being said, locking joints/tendons is pretty much a universal art and is effective. Of course some are more practical than others because it is obvious what you're trying to do.


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Aikido [Re: truekimbo2]
    #13455029 - 11/08/10 05:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:
i dunno what to say.  Even a normal person its pretty much impossible to hold onto their wrists or arms unless you're way stronger than them or can isolate it with your whole  body, much less apply a lock while they're hitting you.

Everything i've ever seen with aikido relied entirely on chereographed stuff with the other person being loose and slow, where in real life people get tense and jerky. 

I dunno thats just with locks.  With throws i would absolutely have to disagree with you.  The amount of times i've been successfully thrown in hundreds of hours of sparring is probably 10-20, and almost always because i was attempting to apply a standing neck choke (staying close to them and keeping my center of balance high).

If you've seen those people use aikido effectively, its probably because they're used to having to restrain people professionally and know how to do that, not because aikido teaches you how to do that.

Lol, if we're ever in a bar together i'll gladly make a similar boast as your friend.



OK Lol.
I do agree to an extent in regards to the throws. I don't see those being all that practical in most martial situations, but the wrist manipulations and takedowns/pins do work.

"unless you are way stronger than them or can isolate it with your whole body, much less apply a lock while they're hitting you"
I think you answered some questions yourself here. The whole concept is placing yourself where your opponent can't strike you, and isolating the lock with your whole body. That's kinda the whole idea.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 

Edited by nicechrisman (11/08/10 06:19 PM)

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OfflineMind Transcribing
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Re: Aikido [Re: nicechrisman]
    #13457055 - 11/09/10 12:19 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

What do you all think is best for street fighting between Mai Thai, BJJ, and Judo?


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Aikido [Re: Mind Transcribing]
    #13457075 - 11/09/10 12:27 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

among those 3, a bjj school that doesn't over emphasize the grappling and sport.


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Offlinejoshstins420
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Re: Aikido [Re: truekimbo2]
    #13457118 - 11/09/10 12:38 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

fuck aikido all those riddiculous looking moves and wrist locks never work in a real fight take brazilian jiujitsu


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Aikido [Re: joshstins420]
    #13457929 - 11/09/10 08:37 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

joshstins420 said:
fuck aikido all those riddiculous looking moves and wrist locks never work in a real fight take brazilian jiujitsu



:huxleyfacepalm: How much Aikido training have you had? They sure work when I do them. What many people don't understand is that many of the same wrist locks we use are also used in jujutsu.

I guess there's not too much point in arguing this point. Martial arts threads always end up degenerating to this "my martial art is better than yours" BS. It would be cool if anyone wanted to have an intelligent conversation on the matter. I thought that was what the OP was hoping for.

I see you live in Seattle? Why don't you go over to Eastside Aikido and talk to George Ledyard Sensei? I bet he could show you how it works. He's a fantastic teacher. Or you could come to Bellingham and I could show you.

Edited by nicechrisman (11/09/10 08:41 AM)

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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Aikido [Re: truekimbo2]
    #13472927 - 11/12/10 10:00 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:


If you've seen those people use aikido effectively, its probably because they're used to having to restrain people professionally and know how to do that, not because aikido teaches you how to do that.




So you agree that they could do that. What makes you think they couldn't convey that to their students? I think there's a flaw in you logic here.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 

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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Aikido [Re: nicechrisman]
    #13473707 - 11/12/10 01:05 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

i've been thinking about this.  Instead of trying to find some logic behind my admission that some people could be good at joint locks, i'm just going to repeat myself lol.

You mentioned police and stuff using joint locks.  As far as i know they would never use a joint lock as a primary thing to do.  They apply joint locks when there are 4 of them on one person, or after they have the guy/girl on the ground, after they use their taser, or after they rough the person up.

What to do with a disabled person is really a secondary concern, getting there is the hard part.

Uhm, i guess i'll add that some people are just naturally good at certain things?  and yeah it can come from practice (or better yet experience) but that doesn't necessarily mean it can be translated.

As an example, its not completely unheard of in street fights or MMA for someone to be knocked out in one blow.  It happens often enough, but its not something you would ever count on or attempt to shoot for.  Yet some people can do it more than others!
I had a friend once who was this tall skinny guy.  He could hit like a truck, I've never had anyone else hit me so hard, and it wasn't about restraint, for whatever reason he just knew how to punch really good.  I remember exactly once we threw on boxing gloves and decided to go full force, and he knocked me down and i was done in 1 second from 2 punches.  I've been in fights with people with 40 lbs on him and literally wasn't hurt at all from being punched (lol for that matter i've been kicked in the head by 5-6 people at once and was totally fine).

I'm not saying joint locks are impossible to use, just generally speaking they're very difficult to pull off without disabling the person or isolating the joint.    Its just not a practical thing to train in for sport or defense.
However i think aikido is really cool! and as an art i would encourage it.  Er, although i can't really think of an example right now, there are lots of things that are crappy at a low or medium level of skill, and amazing at a high level of skill.  If thats what someone wants to shoot for, i would agree that if someone attains a mastery at joint locks, they'll probably find a way to make it effective.

Oh actually i can think of a perfect example.  I've met a couple combat tai chi people.  Yep, tai chi.  2 of them are really badasses.  They'd probably disagree with me, but i don't think all the tai chi is what directly caused them to be excellent fighters, and when they teach, it usually goes pretty outside the scope of tai chi.


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Aikido [Re: truekimbo2]
    #13477423 - 11/13/10 08:39 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Well said. I agree. I think in classical arts like Aikido it does take a long time and a certain degree of mastery before it really become an effective system. In the classical arts, they are more concerned in the early phases of training with building a strong foundation for you practice. Many of the exercises and things that are taught early on aren't really particularly effective for self defense.

I do think however, that since the time is spent on building a solid foundation, the the eventual degree of mastery can be much greater than an art that goes straight for the goods without building a good foundation. I always liken this to building a house. You can build an awesome house on a not so sturdy foundation, or you can build a solid foundation and have a modest house built on it. Which one is stronger in the long run?

And yes, aside from all the practicality issues, aikido has been an amazing and fascinating discipline and study for me. It literally has changed my life. Much better health, much better posture and balance, better breathing during intense/stressful situations, much more confidence. I think all of these factors make me much more able to defend myself. Plus, I love Japanese culture and learning a traditional Japanese art scratches that itch for me too.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 

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