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Offlineskatealex2
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Why did California vote down legal pot?
    #13428726 - 11/03/10 12:57 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Editor's note: Jeffrey A. Miron is senior lecturer and director of undergraduate studies at Harvard University and senior fellow at the Cato Institute. Miron is the author of "Libertarianism, from A to Z."

(CNN) -- California voters have just rejected Proposition 19, the ballot initiative that would have legalized marijuana under state law. Where did Prop 19 go wrong?

Prop 19 failed in part because many proponents emphasized the wrong arguments for legalization. Many advocates promised major benefits to California's budget because of reduced expenditure on marijuana prohibition and increased revenue from marijuana taxation. Other supporters claimed that Mexican drug violence would fall substantially.

Both claims were overblown. The budgetary benefits, while not insignificant, would have been small compared with California's fiscal mess. Mexican drug violence is mainly associated with the cocaine and methamphetamine trades, as well as from marijuana traffic to other states.

Many voters sensed that Prop 19 supporters were overreaching, and this made them suspicious of all the arguments in its favor. Common sense should have recognized that since marijuana was close to legal already, Prop 19 would not have had dramatic effects.

Prop 19 failed also because it overreached. One feature attempted to protect the "rights" of employees who get fired or disciplined for using marijuana, including a provision that employers could only discipline marijuana use that "actually impairs job performance." That is a much higher bar than required by current policy.

This provision allowed Prop 19 opponents to claim that workplaces would become infested with impaired pot users. That assertion is not well-founded, but that is not the point. Prop 19 did not need to address employee marijuana-testing in the first place.

A more effective position for Prop 19 supporters would have been that employee marijuana-testing should be unencumbered by state or federal law. That would allow employers to protect themselves and their employees against perceived risks from marijuana, thereby promoting support for legalization.

A final problem with Prop 19 is that it would only have legalized marijuana under state law, since federal law also bans marijuana. U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder, moreover, announced just weeks before Tuesday's election that the administration would enforce the federal law fully even if Prop 19 passed.

This legal limbo would have kept the marijuana market underground, limiting tax revenue and continuing the ills of black market. This ambiguity also dimmed support by making state-level legalization feel like an empty gesture.

So what is the path to legalizing marijuana in the United States?

First and foremost, advocates must emphasize that in a free society, the burden of proof should be on prohibitionists to justify the interference with liberty that results from outlawing marijuana, a burden the prohibitionists have never met. Any calm assessment of marijuana versus alcohol, for example, shows that alcohol is the substance with the greater potential for harm.

Ancillary benefits of legalization are naturally important: by eliminating the black market, legalization promises reduced crime and corruption, fewer infringements on civil liberties, better quality control for marijuana users, along with budgetary benefits. But these considerations are unlikely to convince the majority until more people agree that government should not interfere in the private decision to consume marijuana.

Marijuana advocates should also focus on federal law, in addition to or even instead of state law. Legalization proponents have long despaired of affecting change at the federal level and assumed that state-by-state change would someday bring down federal prohibition. That position is understandable, and it has achieved some success, such as the decriminalization of medicalization of marijuana in many states.

Yet it's hard to see the federal apparatus yielding ground without direct elimination of its authorization; the stakes for those who hold this power are too high. Legalizers can also argue compellingly that no reasonable interpretation of the Constitution justifies federal imposition of a marijuana ban.

A final key to legalizing marijuana is to get conservatives, not just liberals, more involved. A number of well-known conservatives have advocated legalization, such as Milton Friedman, George Schultz, and William Buckley, but the general perception is that legalizers are "stoners, " acting mainly out of self-interest.

Yet legalization can appeal to conservatives, especially if the arguments emphasize freedom, personal responsibility, and the Constitution, along with up-front clarity about the goal: legal production and use of marijuana for adults, whatever their motivations. Past liberal efforts, such as medical marijuana, invite charges of hypocrisy and weaken support.

Marijuana can and should be legal, Prop 19's failure notwithstanding. But the strategy for achieving that end must change.

The opinions in this commentary are solely those of Jeffrey A. Miron.



http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/11/03/miron.pot.vote/index.html?hpt=T2

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InvisibleSuperD
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Re: Why did California vote down legal pot? [Re: skatealex2] * 1
    #13428776 - 11/03/10 01:06 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Too bad, California.  You really fucked this one up big time.  Good fucking luck convincing the ignorant masses to vote for a more liberal law such as Herer's CCHH in 2012.


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:super:D
Manoa said:
I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. :lol:

Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), :pm: me if you have any for trade

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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Why did California vote down legal pot? [Re: skatealex2]
    #13428790 - 11/03/10 01:09 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

good article :thumbup:

I've always said that the marijuana debate needs to use the prohibitionists terms. What I mean by this is if they are discussing higher teenage use will result, you can't talk about personal freedom, but rather counter their claims. Eventually they will have nothing left, and people will see the light. The prop 19 ads failed to counter the anti-19 ads, so people got the impression that the scare tactics were justified.

People need to be educated on how safe marijuana is, and how all problems associated with it are due to prohibition. They also need to be shown that prohibition has no benefits.

I'm not sure how the process to change federal law would even occur. We know how to change state law - by voter initiatives, but what about federal?


--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

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InvisibleSuperD
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Re: Why did California vote down legal pot? [Re: Green_T]
    #13428822 - 11/03/10 01:17 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I was curious about that too.  It would seem almost impossible to overturn fed law in comparison to state law.  The route of legalizing state by state seems easier than getting the feds to admit defeat.  These monsters are not going to give up their huge monopoly and power without a fight.


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:super:D
Manoa said:
I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. :lol:

Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), :pm: me if you have any for trade

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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: Why did California vote down legal pot? [Re: skatealex2]
    #13428991 - 11/03/10 01:57 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prop 19 failed also because it overreached. One feature attempted to protect the "rights" of employees who get fired or disciplined for using marijuana, including a provision that employers could only discipline marijuana use that "actually impairs job performance." That is a much higher bar than required by current policy.

This provision allowed Prop 19 opponents to claim that workplaces would become infested with impaired pot users. That assertion is not well-founded, but that is not the point. Prop 19 did not need to address employee marijuana-testing in the first place.

A more effective position for Prop 19 supporters would have been that employee marijuana-testing should be unencumbered by state or federal law. That would allow employers to protect themselves and their employees against perceived risks from marijuana, thereby promoting support for legalization.




I disagree with this.  THC stays in your system indefinitely if you smoke regularly.  You could get fired if your employer tested you even if you hadn't smoked for days before coming to work because the THC will still show up.  Even though you're not high.  Why should people who smoke pot responsibly and not come to work under the influence be subjected to such risks?  People could drink the night before coming to work and face no such risk.  If pot is to be truly legal, these protections need to be in place.


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No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.

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OfflinePsilocybinMike
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Re: Why did California vote down legal pot? [Re: pothead_bob]
    #13429312 - 11/03/10 02:46 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

:smbfacepalm:


--------------------


baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVZBTAYm3rw

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Offlineraincloud
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Re: Why did California vote down legal pot? [Re: PsilocybinMike]
    #13429907 - 11/03/10 04:44 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

"First and foremost, advocates must emphasize that in a free society, the burden of proof should be on prohibitionists to justify the interference with liberty that results from outlawing marijuana, a burden the prohibitionists have never met. "

AND

"Legalizers can also argue compellingly that no reasonable interpretation of the Constitution justifies federal imposition of a marijuana ban."


Bingo! The simple fact that the government has outlawed something that you do to yourself is grounds enough for ALL drugs to be legal. We do NOT need the government to dictate what we do to ourselves. It is all about freedom. Freedom to choose and not be harassed. The government's job and what WE pay for is to protect us from others. I am perfectly able to determine what is the correct path for me.

Californians fucked up, period. Instead of turning this into a significant historical event which reaches into to far corners of our freedoms, it was squashed by selfish medical users and self-righteous people who think they know what is best for everyone where they design this country into what they believe will benefit them uncaring about anyone else who simply wants to exist and make their own decisions about how they choose to live.

It is simply unconstitutional.

Edited by raincloud (11/03/10 04:46 PM)

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Why did California vote down legal pot? [Re: skatealex2]
    #13430341 - 11/03/10 05:59 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

3 reasons ..old white men.. who were a disproportionate share of last nites' voting population...

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InvisibleBirdsIView
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Re: Why did California vote down legal pot? [Re: SuperD]
    #13430396 - 11/03/10 06:12 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SuperD said:
Too bad, California.  You really fucked this one up big time.  Good fucking luck convincing the ignorant masses to vote for a more liberal law such as Herer's CCHH in 2012.




The main reason it didn't pass is because it wasn't liberal enough. If you want to blame anyone, blame Richard Lee for not making it more attractive to the medical marijuana community. Seeing the video by al jazeera where a few scum bags where in an office with flyers printed and ready to go to sell their mass produced cannabis put a bad taste in my mouth and made me understand why a lot of the community was against the measure. I still voted yes because I felt the message to the rest of the world was most important, however the bill was poorly put together.

The main effect of prop 19 in my opinion would not have been more freedom to smoke pot, there's already plenty of that in California trust me, but instead would have been putting the cannabiz in the hands of big corporations. Those greedy scumbags can sell their tobacco and booze all they want but stay away from the precious green leaf :leaf:

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Invisibledanielx
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Re: Why did California vote down legal pot? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #13430456 - 11/03/10 06:25 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
3 reasons ..old white men.. who were a disproportionate share of last nites' voting population...




yeah, those white men and their voting :shakefist:


--------------------
Long live kratom :kratom:

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OfflineJoe Joe
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Re: Why did California vote down legal pot? [Re: BirdsIView]
    #13430474 - 11/03/10 06:27 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BirdsIView said:
Quote:

SuperD said:
Too bad, California.  You really fucked this one up big time.  Good fucking luck convincing the ignorant masses to vote for a more liberal law such as Herer's CCHH in 2012.




The main reason it didn't pass is because it wasn't liberal enough. If you want to blame anyone, blame Richard Lee for not making it more attractive to the medical marijuana community. Seeing the video by al jazeera where a few scum bags where in an office with flyers printed and ready to go to sell their mass produced cannabis put a bad taste in my mouth and made me understand why a lot of the community was against the measure. I still voted yes because I felt the message to the rest of the world was most important, however the bill was poorly put together.

The main effect of prop 19 in my opinion would not have been more freedom to smoke pot, there's already plenty of that in California trust me, but instead would have been putting the cannabiz in the hands of big corporations. Those greedy scumbags can sell their tobacco and booze all they want but stay away from the precious green leaf :leaf:




The voice of reason. 

I'm really tired of the growers in Humboldt, medical users, and small dispensaries getting bashed.  Who in their right mind would vote for a law with the strong potential of destroying their business or limiting their rights?  Maybe if Lee would've waited for the Herer bill like many asked him to...

Anyway, the 2012 initiative will be stronger for it!

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InvisibleSuperD
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Re: Why did California vote down legal pot? [Re: Joe Joe]
    #13431234 - 11/03/10 09:15 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Joe Joe said:
Quote:

BirdsIView said:
Quote:

SuperD said:
Too bad, California.  You really fucked this one up big time.  Good fucking luck convincing the ignorant masses to vote for a more liberal law such as Herer's CCHH in 2012.




The main reason it didn't pass is because it wasn't liberal enough. If you want to blame anyone, blame Richard Lee for not making it more attractive to the medical marijuana community. Seeing the video by al jazeera where a few scum bags where in an office with flyers printed and ready to go to sell their mass produced cannabis put a bad taste in my mouth and made me understand why a lot of the community was against the measure. I still voted yes because I felt the message to the rest of the world was most important, however the bill was poorly put together.

The main effect of prop 19 in my opinion would not have been more freedom to smoke pot, there's already plenty of that in California trust me, but instead would have been putting the cannabiz in the hands of big corporations. Those greedy scumbags can sell their tobacco and booze all they want but stay away from the precious green leaf :leaf:




The voice of reason. 

I'm really tired of the growers in Humboldt, medical users, and small dispensaries getting bashed.  Who in their right mind would vote for a law with the strong potential of destroying their business or limiting their rights?  Maybe if Lee would've waited for the Herer bill like many asked him to...

Anyway, the 2012 initiative will be stronger for it!




You two do both realize that if Herer's bill passes in 2012, the same damn thing with commercialization is going to occur, right?  I am all for the 2012 bill and hope it passes, but how you don't see this is beyond me.

Fuck the corporations though.  Buy your shit from microgrowers who care about the plants they grow.


--------------------
:super:D
Manoa said:
I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. :lol:

Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), :pm: me if you have any for trade

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OfflineJoe Joe
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Re: Why did California vote down legal pot? [Re: SuperD]
    #13431310 - 11/03/10 09:39 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You may be right.  But it seems like the folks that are currently in the business of growing, distribution, etc. favored Herer over 19.  I'm going to defer to them on this because I'm sure that they are better informed on how things might play out.  Herer is also better worded, and sets limits on the tax and licensure fees so it might give the small guys a chance. 
I read an article that the current license for a dispensary is 30G/year.  Herer would prevent counties from jacking up the fees in favor of big operations. 
I'm no expert, I just think that Herer is more clear and it addresses important issues that 19 lacked (such as the release an expungement of records for those in the system right now).

Don't worry though.  I will either buy from microgrows or simply rely on my own efforts for my smoke.  (I'll have to for the forseeable future because the Midwest isn't going legal for a long time).

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Offlinepsillyrabbit
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Re: Why did California vote down legal pot? [Re: Joe Joe]
    #13431351 - 11/03/10 09:45 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

the 2012 bill sets plant limits at 99 plants which is the federal threshold for prosecution so the small time entrepreneur can still do any breeding/product development they might want to do before becoming a full fledged company it will keep the home hobbyist in the game by being able to develope their own genetics in a much more timely fashion than prop 19 would have. the people of california are happy with the system we have in place witch as we have shown by our vote. if you think about it we have  the most open minded system in the world .

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InvisibleBirdsIView
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Re: Why did California vote down legal pot? [Re: Joe Joe]
    #13431528 - 11/03/10 10:22 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Joe Joe said:
You may be right.  But it seems like the folks that are currently in the business of growing, distribution, etc. favored Herer over 19.  I'm going to defer to them on this because I'm sure that they are better informed on how things might play out.  Herer is also better worded, and sets limits on the tax and licensure fees so it might give the small guys a chance. 
I read an article that the current license for a dispensary is 30G/year.  Herer would prevent counties from jacking up the fees in favor of big operations. 
I'm no expert, I just think that Herer is more clear and it addresses important issues that 19 lacked (such as the release an expungement of records for those in the system right now).

Don't worry though.  I will either buy from microgrows or simply rely on my own efforts for my smoke.  (I'll have to for the forseeable future because the Midwest isn't going legal for a long time).




Cosign.

I'm pretty ignorant on the herer bill to be honest so maybe I shouldn't endorse it until I educate myself on it but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt for now considering those who support it.

Psillyrabbit, agreed. I think a lot of the people that are mad about prop 19 not passing are the ones outside of California that have this idea that legalization is a dream come true. For californians that dream essentially came true a long time ago when medical marijuana was legalized and recreational use was decriminalized. Cops simply do not care about people smoking weed out here, so legalizing it would change very little in terms of protecting the cannabis user from being criminalized.

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InvisibleSuperD
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Re: Why did California vote down legal pot? [Re: BirdsIView]
    #13431547 - 11/03/10 10:27 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Here's a link to the bill if you want to check it out for yourself.

CCHH 2012


--------------------
:super:D
Manoa said:
I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. :lol:

Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), :pm: me if you have any for trade

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Invisiblenachohippie
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Re: Why did California vote down legal pot? [Re: SuperD]
    #13432346 - 11/04/10 02:01 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

If Richard Lee had waited for the Herre law legalization would have won the first time but at least we can pot Jack on the books:)


--------------------

send guns, money ,lawyers, and drugs its been a long night

everything i post is a lie im a pathological liar

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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Why did California vote down legal pot? [Re: SuperD]
    #13432429 - 11/04/10 02:33 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Of all the million people who voted against prop 19, those involved in the marijuana trade were a TINY proportion.

If CCHHI doesn't address the issues those "no" voters had regarding stoned driving, access to kids, withdrawal of federal funding, etc - then CCHHI is also going to fail.

I would like to see whether or not workplace testing infringes on constitutional rights. It may sound extreme, but I see potential. It is an invasion of privacy, and you have to give up bodily fluids for the test to be done. Can you imagine if there were a blood test which could tell if you viewed pornography within the last month, and people got fired because of viewing it on their own time? Or if it was assumed they were watching pornography at work?

It is different if you are actually at work, especially if your work puts others in danger, but it should be based on work performance.


--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

Edited by Green_T (11/04/10 03:02 AM)

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OfflineJoe Joe
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Re: Why did California vote down legal pot? [Re: Green_T]
    #13433370 - 11/04/10 10:57 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Well Prop 19 really did address stoned driving, stoned at work, and access to kids, but the problem was that these issues were not directly confronted in the media campaign.  There was a huge misinformation (read: lies) about these issues put out by the moral opposition that was not countered.  Fear mongering works on Amuricans and one of the biggest failings (IMO) by 19ers was to let the misinformation go unchallenged in the mainstream media.

I need to reread Herer to make sure that these issues are specifically addressed, but if they aren't I would hope that the backers of Herer would take note and make sure to address them.  There is still time to make adjustments to Herer. 

As far as the stoned at work thing, I don't know.  How does someone know that an employee is drunk?  I doubt most employers have breathalizers on hand.  Probably more of a drunken behavior, smell it on your breath so I'm sending you home thing.  So what is the difference really?  I've read that there are or soon will be drug tests for the active form of THC in the system, so the problem of the inactive form of THC showing up on tests shouldn't be an issue.  Assuming employers are going to test employees on site, which I think is unlikely.  These types of tests would help to address the stoned driving issue though.  (Don't have the link that mentions these new tests, but I can find it if you REALLY want me to).

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OfflineJoe Joe
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Re: Why did California vote down legal pot? [Re: BirdsIView]
    #13433388 - 11/04/10 11:03 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BirdsIView said:
I think a lot of the people that are mad about prop 19 not passing are the ones outside of California that have this idea that legalization is a dream come true.




I agree.  I'm in the Midwest and I was pulling hardcore for 19 and couldn't understand why anyone in the community in Cali would be against it.  Then I read the argument for waiting for 2012.  I don't disagree with those who did vote for 19, but I do understand why the support base was divided ad why some people wanted to wait.

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