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 johnm214
 
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
fantasticfungus said:
The trouble with France is that it is full of ‘The French’!
I've long suspected this was the case.
Interestingly, my father was in Parisin the early seventies, doing the tourist thing. He was chatting with the locals and they started talking politics et cet.
These guys were actually criticizing the US for the Vietnam war, lol, and saying this is an example of how the US is worse than France because of the trouble they "go around causing". Hilarious.
I've heard similar things from others about many French having a particularly 'interesting' understanding of history- especially the period during WWII and the immediate aftermath. I really wonder what most French schools are teaching in History class and if the problem lies there or in nationalist hubris.
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 BadAcid
PLUR 2011>
Registered: 06/23/10
Posts: 224
Loc: UK 
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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 Re: French Riots, I Hate Sarkozy  [Re: johnm214]
#13413091 - 10/31/10 04:40 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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What are you saying? The US WAS to blame for invading Vietnam just because they did not agree with their political system.
What reason have YOU been taught that the US invaded Vietnam?
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People can fly
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
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Re: French Riots, I Hate Sarkozy [Re: BadAcid]
#13413110 - 10/31/10 05:02 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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exactly WTF did the US need to be in Vietnam for, when they asked the dutch to GTFO, that seems like it should have been the end but for some reason the US decided that it had to have a go at the occupation biz. Granted it was still getting it's empire legs but it still was intrusive and killed a lot of people. perhaps johnm was lost because they didn't end the phrase "go causing" with "A major humanitarian, military and political crisis in x." Where x is equal to whatever fucking country those imperialist swine have decided to invade this week to boost their military arms sector.
Perhaps the problem with France is that they didn't drop their first nuke on the US and say alright world listen to us we're going to tell you how it's gonna be. I may add that I say this as someone who is an ango-Canadian and thusly experienced in saying I hate the french.
Fuck the USA.
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
BadAcid said:
What are you saying?
That the french are the last people in the world, except maybe the Japanese or the soviets, who should be criticizing the US's actions in Vietnam- especially compared to the conduct of their own country.
Quote:
The US WAS to blame for invading Vietnam just because they did not agree with their political system.
uh, ok, but this is not what happened.
Please demonstrate your premise is accurate before moving on to draw conclusions thereupon.
The US was invited in to Vietnam legally by the government- in fact there wouldn't even be a Vietnam as such if it weren't for the US's charitable liberation of the entire area.
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What reason have YOU been taught that the US invaded Vietnam?
I don't believe I was ever taught why the US was in Vietnam. I may be mistaken, but if so I certainly don't remember whatever I was told.
Once more I'd challenge your assesment of their entry into the country as an "invasion" and ask you to back that up. Further, I question what difference it makes what I was taught- even if I was taught something? Who cares?
Quote:
ScavengerType said:
exactly WTF did the US need to be in Vietnam for, when they asked the dutch to GTFO, that seems like it should have been the end but for some reason the US decided that it had to have a go at the occupation biz.
Well, I'm not really able to suggest why they needed to be there, but the reason seemed to be because the communists were refusing to honor treaties, refused to allow elections or establish democratic/republican governments in the areas they occupied or influenced (which was every place they could get their hands on- they even tried to partition Japan), and ignored UN direction such that it was, and decided to invade countries illegally through a variety of puppet states and entities. The folks being invaded eventually came to include those in Vietnam who asked for US help, and on that basis we came in to advise them and later fight for them. Basically, the same reason we were in Korea.
What are you referring to with your reference to the Dutch and someone asking them to leave?
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the US decided that it had to have a go at the occupation biz.
What are you referring to specifically? All the countries we occupied owed their very existance and independance to the US almost exclusively, to my knowledge. And all of them further were granted their complete independance in line with the US promises to do so as soon as they could set up a functioning government.
What are you claiming we were occupying in vietnam? This doesn't seem like an honest depiction of the situation.
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Granted it was still getting it's empire legs but it still was intrusive and killed a lot of people. perhaps johnm was lost because they didn't end the phrase "go causing" with "A major humanitarian, military and political crisis in x." Where x is equal to whatever fucking country those imperialist swine have decided to invade this week to boost their military arms sector.
Who was running an empire? This only fits the soviets or perhaps the PRC, or the French before they gave up.
I don't know what your referring to.
Quote:
Perhaps the problem with France is that they didn't drop their first nuke on the US and say alright world listen to us we're going to tell you how it's gonna be. I may add that I say this as someone who is an ango-Canadian and thusly experienced in saying I hate the french.
Fuck the USA.
Where did that come from? What are you talking about?
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: French Riots, I Hate Sarkozy [Re: johnm214]
#13413240 - 10/31/10 06:28 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
fantasticfungus said:
The trouble with France is that it is full of ‘The French’!
I've long suspected this was the case.
Interestingly, my father was in Parisin the early seventies, doing the tourist thing. He was chatting with the locals and they started talking politics et cet.
These guys were actually criticizing the US for the Vietnam war, lol, and saying this is an example of how the US is worse than France because of the trouble they "go around causing". Hilarious.
I've heard similar things from others about many French having a particularly 'interesting' understanding of history- especially the period during WWII and the immediate aftermath. I really wonder what most French schools are teaching in History class and if the problem lies there or in nationalist hubris.
That is amusing seeing as the French were all over Vietnam long before the US became involved.
First Indochina War
Main articles: First Indochina War, Democratic Republic of Vietnam, State of Vietnam, State of Vietnam referendum, 1955, and Operation Passage to Freedom
France-marked USAF C-119 flown by CIA pilots over Dien Bien Phu in 1954.
In 1941, the Viet Minh — a communist and nationalist liberation movement — emerged under Ho Chi Minh to seek independence for Vietnam from France as well as to oppose the Japanese occupation. An estimated 2 million Vietnamese, or 10% of the population then, died during the Vietnamese famine of 1944–45.[21] Following the military defeat of Japan and the fall of its Empire of Vietnam in August 1945, Viet Minh occupied Hanoi and proclaimed a provisional government, which asserted independence on 2 September.[22]
In the same year the Provisional French Republic sent the French Far East Expeditionary Corps, which was originally created to fight the Japanese occupation forces, in order to pacify the liberation movement and to restore French rule. On November 20, 1946, triggered by the Haiphong Incident, the First Indochina War between Viet Minh and the French forces ensued, lasting until July 20, 1954.
Despite fewer losses — Expeditionary Corps suffered one-third of the casualties of the Chinese and Soviet-backed Viet Minh — during the course of the war, the French and Vietnamese loyalists eventually suffered a major strategic setback at the Siege of Dien Bien Phu, which allowed Ho Chi Minh to negotiate a ceasefire with a favorable position at the ongoing Geneva conference of 1954. Colonial administration ended as French Indochina was dissolved. According to the Geneva Accords of 1954 the forces of former French supporters and communist nationalists were separated south and north, respectively, with the Vietnamese Demilitarized Zone, at the 17th parallel north, between. A 300-day period of free movement was given, during which almost a million northerners, mainly Catholic, moved south, fearing persecution by the communists.
A partition of Vietnam, with Ho Chi Minh's Democratic Republic of Vietnam in North Vietnam, and Emperor Bảo Đại's State of Vietnam in the South Vietnam, was not intended to be permanent by the Geneva Accords, and they expressly forbade the interference of third powers. The State of Vietnam's Prime Minister Ngo Dinh Diem toppled Bảo Đại in a fraudulent referendum organised by his brother Ngo Dinh Nhu, and proclaimed himself president of the Republic of Vietnam. The Accords mandated nationwide elections by 1956, which Diem refused to hold, despite repeated calls from the North for talks to discuss elections.[23]
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
fantasticfungus said:
The trouble with France is that it is full of ‘The French’!
I've long suspected this was the case.
Interestingly, my father was in Parisin the early seventies, doing the tourist thing. He was chatting with the locals and they started talking politics et cet.
These guys were actually criticizing the US for the Vietnam war, lol, and saying this is an example of how the US is worse than France because of the trouble they "go around causing". Hilarious.
I've heard similar things from others about many French having a particularly 'interesting' understanding of history- especially the period during WWII and the immediate aftermath. I really wonder what most French schools are teaching in History class and if the problem lies there or in nationalist hubris.
That is amusing seeing as the French were all over Vietnam long before the US became involved.
Right, which is why I thought it was ridiculous for Frenchmen to tell my dad that Vietnam is an example of how the French are better than the US as they'd never get in another country's buisness like that and cause all that suffering, lol.
If it wasn't for France and their incompotence, the whole war might not have happened.
I just can't understand all the "imperialist" and "neo-imperialist" (whatever that is) accusations slung around about the US. While we fucked around a lot in the cold war and so forth, the US has been a major advocate for freedom of indigineous populations and republicanism around the world.
Especially during and after WWII, the US could have been like the Soviets and just stolen half the world, and financed puppet states to steal the rest, but it didn't. Not only did it almost single handedly liberate a large portion of the Pacific and East Asian countries (along witht he Aussies and some others), all those countries got their own republican governments with democratic representation and self determination.
It just boggles the mind to me.
I really wonder if a large amount of it isn't just people who learn a teency bit about history, identify things they don't like that the US did that cuts against the rhetoric associated with the US, and decide its a terrible country.
I know I personally thought far worse of the US when I knew far less about it and its history- the more I learn the better I like the country, usually.
You can see posters like BadAcid say things like "what have you been taught about [whatever]" all the time as if they presume anyone who likes the US or defends it or even says something favorable to it must be brainwashed and ignorant- assuming they have superior understanding simply by virtue of the fact they disagree with you, lol.
Just something I've been noticing and thought I'd mention. I'd be interested if anyone else has similar views or observes the same thing with views towards the US.
Especially relative to other countries, the US has been remarkably decent and 'good'. The 'neoimperialism" type comments seem simply bizarre to me- and almost always examples of a conclusion in search of an argument.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: French Riots, I Hate Sarkozy [Re: johnm214]
#13413303 - 10/31/10 07:07 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:I really wonder if a large amount of it isn't just people who learn a teency bit about history, identify things they don't like that the US did that cuts against the rhetoric associated with the US, and decide its a terrible country.
Quote:
You can see posters like BadAcid say things like "what have you been taught about [whatever]" all the time as if they presume anyone who likes the US or defends it or even says something favorable to it must be brainwashed and ignorant- assuming they have superior understanding simply by virtue of the fact they disagree with you, lol.
A little knowledge...
Quote:
Especially relative to other countries, the US has been remarkably decent and 'good'. The 'neoimperialism" type comments seem simply bizarre to me- and almost always examples of a conclusion in search of an argument.
Yup.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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communeart
Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 1,021
Loc: 
Last seen: 12 years, 9 days
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why do you have to assume that the french population agrees with the vietnam war? those specific french people you talked to could have been social-democrats or communist, there are many of them in france. the marxist parties often get around 7-10% total.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: French Riots, I Hate Sarkozy [Re: communeart]
#13414294 - 10/31/10 01:10 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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I didn't assume it, and it doesn't matter either way.
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fantasticfungus
Stranger
Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 684
Loc:
Last seen: 5 years, 4 months
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Re: French Riots, I Hate Sarkozy [Re: johnm214]
#13421959 - 11/02/10 04:50 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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The Indo China thing was a leftover from imperialism, the British empire included Canada, Australia, India and loads more country’s, Germany had colonies too, the Italians were still out for imperial expansion just before WW2 when they invaded Ethiopia and it turned in to a disaster, the French had Indo China and some other colonies in Africa, no doubt there’s loads of others I don’t know about.
All the European nations were all jealous of each other and they all wanted their own slice of the imperial cake but the empires all crumbled after the war. They were all as bad as each other, but Britain was worst or was it the best?
The Vietnamese wanted independence from France just like India wanted independence from Britain. If they had received it they wouldn’t have turned to the commies for help and then the Vietnamese war wouldn’t have happened.
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mill
Newb
Registered: 11/06/10
Posts: 186
Loc: Europe West Coast
Last seen: 2 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: French Riots, I Hate Sarkozy [Re: lines]
#13453272 - 11/08/10 11:19 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Haha, so hilarious. Sorry to clear a point.
2 ways :
Media are so silly they cant even understand/traduce numbers ?
Or
Most of people cant think by themselves eating burgers and trusting all what is said on TV ?
Riots in France for what ? Not to work from 60 to 62 but to 67 (Which makes a HUGE difference) !
Sorry to have disturb but now the truth is said 
Edited by mill (11/08/10 11:24 AM)
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: French Riots, I Hate Sarkozy [Re: mill]
#13454005 - 11/08/10 02:19 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
mill said:
Haha, so hilarious. Sorry to clear a point.
2 ways :
Media are so silly they cant even understand/traduce numbers ?
Or
Most of people cant think by themselves eating burgers and trusting all what is said on TV ?
Riots in France for what ? Not to work from 60 to 62 but to 67 (Which makes a HUGE difference) !
Sorry to have disturb but now the truth is said
That's incorrect.
In France the early retirement age has gone from 60 to 62. The normal retirement age has gone from 65 to 67.
Boo Fucking Hoo.
On Wednesday, the French National Assembly gave its final approval to a law raising from 60 to 62 the minimum age for retirement and from 65 to 67 the age at which a full state pension kicks in.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Considering they only show up for work about 40 weeks a year anyway they probably shouldn't retire until about 80.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: French Riots, I Hate Sarkozy [Re: zappaisgod]
#13454733 - 11/08/10 04:43 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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If then.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: French Riots, I Hate Sarkozy [Re: mill]
#13454740 - 11/08/10 04:44 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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I guess budgeting your income and saving is beyond the capability of the french? And to think, just a couple hundred years ago they were the leaders in scientific, political and philosophic thought. Now they cant even plan for their own retirement...
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mill
Newb
Registered: 11/06/10
Posts: 186
Loc: Europe West Coast
Last seen: 2 hours, 25 minutes
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Only a very few part of the population will retire at 62.
Every social organizations here are ok for a full retirement at 62 but the reality is that most of people will work till 67. Thats the reason of the social conflict.
To be able to leave at 62 you will have to proof 60% of physical invalidity. At 60% you'll ever be in hospital 
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Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
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Re: French Riots, I Hate Sarkozy *DELETED* [Re: lines]
#13477184 - 11/13/10 07:06 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Lakefingers
Reason for deletion: "
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: French Riots, I Hate Sarkozy [Re: Lakefingers]
#13477519 - 11/13/10 09:12 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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The youth unemployment rate in France is directly tied to the fact that French employers can't fire people. When it was floated a few years ago to allow employers to hire people provisionally for a few years the youth rioted over that, as well. Fuck them, the unaccountable little cunts.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: French Riots, I Hate Sarkozy [Re: zappaisgod]
#13477659 - 11/13/10 09:57 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
The youth unemployment rate in France is directly tied to the fact that French employers can't fire people. When it was floated a few years ago to allow employers to hire people provisionally for a few years the youth rioted over that, as well. Fuck them, the unaccountable little cunts.
Bingo.
As a young person who thinks they are worth more than old worthless workers who piddle around doing nothing all day, it sucks. These things only protect shitty workers.
Interestingly enough, in Italy, my father has a friend who owns a small section of an apartment building. He refuses to rent to any Italians, lol, and this is in Rome.
Reason? When they don't pay its next to impossible to evict them. He said it takes over a year if the tennent shows up to the court hearings. All they have to do is give a token amount of money (a tenth of the rent or whatever) every once in a while, make the court dates, and tell the judge that he is trying as hard as he can, and next month he's getting some more hours and will be able to pay the rent then. They'll reschedule the hearing a few months out, and then you can do the same thing.
He said with non-itallians, if they don't pay, he can kick em out within a few months- so he isn't stuck paying their heating and water bills (which are illegal for him to not pay if the resident cannot) for a year while they are stiffing him on the rent.
So these laws actually end up hurting the people they were supposed to help- now the Italians cannot get an apartment from this guy, and surely foreigners are favored by others as well.
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Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
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Re: French Riots, I Hate Sarkozy *DELETED* [Re: johnm214]
#13478708 - 11/13/10 02:23 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Lakefingers
Reason for deletion: "
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