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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: anarchy [Re: Evolving]
    #1339450 - 02/27/03 04:17 AM (21 years, 25 days ago)

Maybe he could write his own dictionary.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: anarchy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1339451 - 02/27/03 04:17 AM (21 years, 25 days ago)

Are you curious to find out a real answer? Then read a few books by Emma Goldman. One sentence "definitions" don't really get the job done.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: anarchy [Re: Evolving]
    #1339457 - 02/27/03 04:19 AM (21 years, 25 days ago)

common usage of the language

Exactly. The media use the term as another word for violence and rebellion. That's the common usage, it's not the correct usage.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: anarchy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1339459 - 02/27/03 04:19 AM (21 years, 25 days ago)

Instead of changing the meaning of a word, why not just make up a new one to express what you want to say?


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: anarchy [Re: sirreal]
    #1339465 - 02/27/03 04:23 AM (21 years, 25 days ago)

Anarchy does fine for anyone who knows the first thing about it.

If your only knowledge of anarchy is what's in the dictionary you'll have problems.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: anarchy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1339470 - 02/27/03 04:26 AM (21 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

If your only knowledge of anarchy is what's in the dictionary you'll have problems.




What problems might that be? please let me know so I can avoid them.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: anarchy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1339475 - 02/27/03 04:30 AM (21 years, 25 days ago)

So the common usage of terms should never be expected in discussions with Alex? We should all assume that what he says has a meaning different from that commonly assigned to words by society as a whole?

Perhaps, we have arrived at the crux of the matter of why so many people have developed a low opinion of your communication talents and why you consistently fail to obtain understanding for points you are trying to express.

Think about it.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: anarchy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1339487 - 02/27/03 04:34 AM (21 years, 25 days ago)

actually i was more interested in discovering YOUR idea of what anarchy is not Emma Goldman. I already know what it is and was wondering if your definition is the same...geez it was just a question.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: anarchy [Re: Evolving]
    #1339502 - 02/27/03 04:41 AM (21 years, 25 days ago)

So the common usage of terms should never be expected in discussions with Alex?

No, not never, just sometimes. Anarchy is a case where the common usage of a word doesn't relate to it's meaning. The common usage of "hallucinogens" to describe mushrooms isn't valid either. Try and think about what you write. Don't just knee-jerk into something because you're nursing a grudge against me. You simply look foolish.

why so many people

Don't run away with yourself son. There's just you and a few of your right-wing pals. Don't confuse that with the truth.

Think about it

Perhaps you should think about why you feel the need to pursue a childish grudge against someone you've never even met on a shroom board. Then look at your life and consider how empty it must be.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: anarchy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1339601 - 02/27/03 05:24 AM (21 years, 25 days ago)

Alex is correct that dictionary definitions of various political systems are sometimes incomplete. Dictionary definitions strive for concision rather than completeness. It would be better to consult a specialized dictionary (one of political terms), or -- in the case of anarchy -- to consult the anarchists themselves.

from infoshop.org --

-- Anarchism is a political theory which aims to create anarchy, "the absence of a master, of a sovereign." [P-J Proudhon]

-- Change opinion, convince the public that government is not only unnecessary, but extremely harmful, and then the word anarchy, just because it means "absence of government"... [Proudhon]

-- As Peter Kropotkin put it, Anarchy comes from the Greek words meaning "contrary to authority."

-- The term anarchy comes from the Greek, and essentially means 'no ruler.' Anarchists are people who reject all forms of government or coercive authority, all forms of hierarchy and domination. [Brian Morris]


Note the dominant theme of all the above Anarchist thinkers -- no ruler, no authority, no dominance. In other words, no individual or group of individuals deciding what the others must do.

From this it is apparent that a band of thirty or so hunter gatherers with no chieftain or tribal council (or at least a band in which such entities refrained from any sort of direction of the band's actions) would be considered an anarchic society.

This begs the question of whether or not prehistoric societies did in fact organize (or, more precisely, didn't organize) themselves in such a manner. Since there is no written history or oral history from these people which provides any data on the question, any theory as to which politico-social organization such groups embraced is necessarily conjecture. Perhaps they had no leaders, perhaps they did.

Since virtually all species of primates have leaders and/or dominant individuals whom the pack follow, and since virtually all human societies with any histories remaining for us to study also have had leaders, it would be a bold and counter-intuitive step to presume that proto-humans or even early Homo sapiens sapiens had none.

Is it possible? Certainly. But "possibility" is not equivalent to fact. The truth is that until a "wayback" machine is invented and time travel is a reality, there is no way to say one way or the other.

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: anarchy [Re: Phred]
    #1339607 - 02/27/03 05:36 AM (21 years, 25 days ago)

I agree. I wasn't trying to infer that anything he (alex) said was wrong but i find it iteresting when people say things are wrong but don't give an example of the "right" way to describe it. My idea of anarchy (from the hip) is a society with no laws and no governing body. Basically every man woman and child to themselves. Anarchy doesn't mean violence, chaos, and terror. Anarchy depends on the people within the Anarchy group. If you have 30 Utopians involved (which is pretty close to impossible) then there would be peace, love and a generally nice environment. Unfortunatly i believe this will never happen.

A better real-life scenerio would be crime, violence, natural selection etc. While these don't make up anarchy, i believe this would be the real world results of such a society when we take today's people as participants.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Anonymous

Re: anarchy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1340050 - 02/27/03 08:25 AM (21 years, 25 days ago)

According to Hobbes, the nature of man is chaotic, ruthless, and downright evil. It seems many people believe this, and I can see where they derive it from. The world we live in now is ruthless and evil, but why?

Forcing people into a straightjacket only leads to them being submissive and powerless. Their true feelings and beliefs are manipulated into believing a single ideology, and the persecution of those who offer a new way of life... this will definitely bring down all hope of a utopian society.

The goodness of humanity won't be seen through the current system of this world, but only when everything is stripped down to an individual in a sea of ideas and dreams. Humans can live peacefully if only given the chance to be free, and that will never happen unless we agree to bring down whats oppressing us.

Edited by LoOnEr (02/27/03 08:28 AM)

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: anarchy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1340093 - 02/27/03 08:35 AM (21 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Anarchy is a case where the common usage of a word doesn't relate to it's meaning.



Brilliant, your comedic sense is impeccable. This isn't a line from 'Dumb and Dumber' is it?
Quote:

Try and think about what you write.



Maybe you should heed your own words.
Quote:

Don't just knee-jerk into something because you're nursing a grudge against me. You simply look foolish.



What grudge? I point out sloppy thinking, that's all. If you can't communicate clearly with commonly understood meanings, what is the point of even entering into a discussion? Do you expect all of us to be mind readers and somehow know you're holding a concept for a word that is so uncommon that it isn't even in the dictionary?
Quote:

Don't confuse that with the truth.



The confusion arises when you assign uncommon meanings to words and then expect others to understand. If you want to be understood, use words the way they are used in society.
Quote:

Perhaps you should think about why you feel the need to pursue a childish grudge against someone you've never even met on a shroom board. Then look at your life and consider how empty it must be.



No grudge, I just have never been exposed to someone so entertainingly steadfast in his ignorance. I find it a pleasure to read your posts.

Please, continue to bring levity to these forums and entertain us with further expositions of your mental contortions.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (02/27/03 10:33 AM)

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OfflineyelimS
bohem

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 717
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: anarchy [Re: Evolving]
    #1340307 - 02/27/03 09:41 AM (21 years, 25 days ago)

Evolving: what's to argue about? Your definition of anarchy is commonly accepted, no doubt about that, but this discussion is about REAL anarchy, not chaos. If that confuses you, it's your problem. I'm sure if this started out as a thread about libertarian socialism, someone would have misunderstood that as well.

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: anarchy [Re: yelimS]
    #1340453 - 02/27/03 10:27 AM (21 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Your definition of anarchy is commonly accepted, no doubt about that, but this discussion is about REAL anarchy, not chaos. If that confuses you, it's your problem.



Who's confused? The first definition I listed was, "the complete absence of government and law." That is REAL anarchy.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 4 months, 25 days
Re: anarchy [Re: ]
    #1341275 - 02/27/03 04:44 PM (21 years, 25 days ago)

"The world we live in now is ruthless and evil, but why? "

Because it directly mirrors the animal world. Look at a group of chimpanzees. They act based on the same emotions as humans, and they fight one another all the time. People have always had the urge to be powerful and respected, and throughout the animal kingdom, the best way to do this is by showing ones physical dominance.

You're agruing that humans briefly lost this trait, and then suddenly regained it. This seems kind of odd to me.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: anarchy [Re: Evolving]
    #1341336 - 02/27/03 05:32 PM (21 years, 25 days ago)

mental contortions

You've convinced me. You're not nursing a grudge... :smirk:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: anarchy [Re: Evolving]
    #1341353 - 02/27/03 05:41 PM (21 years, 25 days ago)

Who's confused?

You are.

The first definition I listed

Here is what you listed.

Anarchy's generally accepted meanings are...
1. the complete absence of government and law.
2. political disorder and violence: lawlessness.
3. disorder in any sphere of activity.
Syn. - lawlessness, disorder, tumult, rebelion, riot, insubordination.

Do you consider these "generally accepted meanings" to be an accurate description of anarchy or not? Or are you now backtracking and desperately trying to say "only the first one is"?

Told you son, knee jerking into something because you're nursing a grudge against me isn't a good way of being taken seriously.

You're wrong and you know you are.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: anarchy [Re: Phluck]
    #1341963 - 02/28/03 03:12 AM (21 years, 24 days ago)

Because it directly mirrors the animal world. Look at a group of chimpanzees. They act based on the same emotions as humans, and they fight one another all the time. People have always had the urge to be powerful and respected, and throughout the animal kingdom, the best way to do this is by showing ones physical dominance.

So you think we should live our life like the animals? Sure we resemble them because of our need to survive through evolution, but we have a powerful brain that can make "right" and "wrong" decisions.

You're agruing that humans briefly lost this trait, and then suddenly regained it. This seems kind of odd to me.

No, I never said that. It has always been in us, but isn't it about time we stepped back from our primitive instincts and base our lives on meaningful beliefs?

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: anarchy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1346056 - 03/02/03 02:12 AM (21 years, 22 days ago)

For those of us who know how to use a dictionary, it is understood that the first meaning listed is THE MOST COMMON USAGE (keep this in mind if you ever happen to use one). The first meaning listed is the most accurate one in relation to this discussion.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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