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OfflineNewbie
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Official Proposition 19 Discussion
    #13348476 - 10/17/10 01:44 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

There are a TON of threads discussing prop 19 appearing in the Pub lately.  Rather than spanning it out across multiple threads, I feel it best to centralize it. 

The proposition is outlined here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_19_(2010)

Some recent threads discussing it (for quotation purposes and whatnot):

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13395598#13395598
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13346228/gonew/1#UNREAD
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13342742#13342742
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13318221#13318221
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13306850#13306850
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13341580#13341580

In my personal opinion, I think if passed it's a huge leap in the right direction.  If I were rotting in prison because of it, I'd be pissed I was still there but there'd be a part of me that'd smile at the fact that at least one state in america is taking a step in the right direction.  Take it away guys!

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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Newbie] * 1
    #13348512 - 10/17/10 01:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

IMO there is only one real argument to be had regarding prop 19, and it's a very, very serious one.

People are in JAIL for selling and/or growing a plant.
Years of their lives, wasted, stolen from them.
This is a FUCKING OUTRAGE.

Every one of you who is even THINKING about voting no on prop 19, remember this:
If you do, you are complicit in the unjust incarceration of multiple thousands of innocent people.

Sorry to bring you crashing back to reality, but them's the facts.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.

Edited by laserpig (10/17/10 01:57 PM)

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OfflineNewbie
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: laserpig]
    #13348518 - 10/17/10 01:53 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

But keeping it illegal only allows for more people to be incarcerated.  The change has to start somewhere and I say better sooner than later.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: laserpig]
    #13348527 - 10/17/10 01:54 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
you are implicit in the unjust incarceration of multiple thousands of innocent people.





complicit

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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Newbie]
    #13348537 - 10/17/10 01:56 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

What I'm saying is that every Californian has a strict moral obligation to vote for prop 19, because even if they don't fancy the specific regulation schemes being proposed, to vote against 19 is to endorse the unjust incarceration of thousands of innocents.

*Thanks Pris.


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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: laserpig]
    #13348573 - 10/17/10 02:04 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Prop 19 isn't perfect, but it is a HUGE step forward. There has been so much money and energy pumped into this, that if it fails, the recovery will take a long time.

For those who are younger than 21, remember that the 3 years will pass one way or another, and weed will either be legal to grow and smoke (if 19 passes) or it won't be.


--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Green_T]
    #13348607 - 10/17/10 02:11 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Green_T said:
Prop 19 isn't perfect, but it is a HUGE step forward.




I agree. I'm beginning to think this has a real chance of passing. As someone once said "nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come".

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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Le_Canard]
    #13348654 - 10/17/10 02:23 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

This is what it looks like on the ballot. Should be easy to spot, since it is the first one under "state initiatives" :smile:



--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Green_T]
    #13348680 - 10/17/10 02:28 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Looks good! :laugh: I never thought I'd see this day this come up. If it passes in California, other states will be sure to follow.

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Offlinebig duder
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Green_T]
    #13348681 - 10/17/10 02:28 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I think its a only a matter of time before its legal in all states. Probably not till after the baby boomers parents are all dead, out of power and dont have a vote which is almost to that point. In my opinion thats why this bill is on the table and its dam near legal in around 15-20 states now I think with the medical thing. I hope they pass it so we can move on to making shrooms legal.

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OfflineSbstratAlchemist
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: big duder]
    #13349305 - 10/17/10 06:13 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

All but one recent poll shows Prop 19 winning.  It's going to come down to who shows up to vote.

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: laserpig]
    #13349452 - 10/17/10 06:45 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

First off, Im all for Prop 19


but if this is your best argument for it....

Quote:

laserpig said:
IMO there is only one real argument to be had regarding prop 19, and it's a very, very serious one.

People are in JAIL for selling and/or growing a plant.
Years of their lives, wasted, stolen from them.
This is a FUCKING OUTRAGE.

Every one of you who is even THINKING about voting no on prop 19, remember this:
If you do, you are complicit in the unjust incarceration of multiple thousands of innocent people.

Sorry to bring you crashing back to reality, but them's the facts.




Didn't the Governor of Cali just sign a law that prevents people from being arrested for possession?

Doesn't that do what your wanting?


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: niteowl]
    #13349490 - 10/17/10 06:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Possession was already just barely a crime in California.
Arnold's "decriminalization" changes very little.

You'll notice, if you read my post more carefully, that I said "growing and/or selling."

To focus only on the legality of possession misses much more than half of the picture.
IMO we all deserve the right to cultivate any plant we like, and use it or sell it as we please.
I think it is an absolute outrage that one can be imprisoned for gardening, and I have utter contempt for those who fail to take this into account.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Offlinerealfuzzhead
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: laserpig]
    #13349611 - 10/17/10 07:23 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Hope it stops raining here in socal so i can actually go out and promote this, there are sooooo many undecided voters that if you live in California and are a shroomery member, it is your duty to this whole site, and everyone in the other 49 states to do whatever you can to make this prop win.

I'm going to the local colleges to hand out flyers and let people know the truth.:happyweed:

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Invisiblecacharstar
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: laserpig]
    #13349719 - 10/17/10 07:44 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
What I'm saying is that every Californian has a strict moral obligation to vote for prop 19, because even if they don't fancy the specific regulation schemes being proposed, to vote against 19 is to endorse the unjust incarceration of thousands of innocents.

*Thanks Pris.






In my opinion prop 19 will be horrible to the industry. Yea many people knowingly broke an unjust law to engage in cultivation of marijuana and are incarcerated in jail;  But that is that.  Sux.

If 19 passes I think millions of federal dollars will be withheld in an attempt to gain control by the feds.  That and small time growers will be outta business unless I can start sending packages to you outta state.:tinfoil:  On the other hand doesn't prop 19 also allow for stricter penalties for growers not licensed?  Another issue.  That and do you really think the feds will let Oaksterdam open his warehouses? Prop 19 will probably pass. And I need a new job.  I think the quality of buds on the scene will diminish.  I see huge crops of outdoor flooding the market; homegrown.  It sux enough in the bay right now.  Go on cl and see what a qp is selling for. :facepalm:

How can I make money if these fuckers are flooding the mkt...


I have a 215 card.  I will vote no on prop 19 and I urge you to do so as well.  Protect the industry.  Possession of an ounce or less is already just an infraction in california.  We don't need this. That and if you are 18, do you really want to wait 3 years to smoke legally when you can get a card at 18 and smoke now?


--------------------
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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13349760 - 10/17/10 07:50 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

:crymeariver:

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Invisiblecacharstar
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Chespirito]
    #13349775 - 10/17/10 07:52 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

:crankey:


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13349791 - 10/17/10 07:56 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

cacharstar said:
How can I make money if these fuckers are flooding the mkt...

I have a 215 card.  I will vote no on prop 19 and I urge you to do so as well.  Protect the industry.



FUCK your "industry" you goddamn selfish prick.
I have nothing to say to you.

Pris, you can ban me again for this if you need to, but at least don't delete my words.


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Offlinescienceguy
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar] * 1
    #13349808 - 10/17/10 07:59 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Beer is legal, and the GOOD brewers still make money...

Competition is only scary when you're bad at what you do.  :wink:


--------------------
"Freedom starts between the ears."

Edward Abbey

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Offlinerealfuzzhead
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13349861 - 10/17/10 08:08 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

cacharstar said:
Quote:

laserpig said:
What I'm saying is that every Californian has a strict moral obligation to vote for prop 19, because even if they don't fancy the specific regulation schemes being proposed, to vote against 19 is to endorse the unjust incarceration of thousands of innocents.

*Thanks Pris.






In my opinion prop 19 will be horrible to the industry. Yea many people knowingly broke an unjust law to engage in cultivation of marijuana and are incarcerated in jail;  But that is that.  Sux.

If 19 passes I think millions of federal dollars will be withheld in an attempt to gain control by the feds.  That and small time growers will be outta business unless I can start sending packages to you outta state.:tinfoil:  On the other hand doesn't prop 19 also allow for stricter penalties for growers not licensed?  Another issue.  That and do you really think the feds will let Oaksterdam open his warehouses? Prop 19 will probably pass. And I need a new job.  I think the quality of buds on the scene will diminish.  I see huge crops of outdoor flooding the market; homegrown.  It sux enough in the bay right now.  Go on cl and see what a qp is selling for. :facepalm:

How can I make money if these fuckers are flooding the mkt...


I have a 215 card.  I will vote no on prop 19 and I urge you to do so as well.  Protect the industry.  Possession of an ounce or less is already just an infraction in california.  We don't need this. That and if you are 18, do you really want to wait 3 years to smoke legally when you can get a card at 18 and smoke now?





did you even read the bill? You sir, are a pussy. Its people like you who put thier personal gain over a chance for PROPER CIVIL LIBERTIES, NOT JUST TO CALIFORNIA BUT AS A DOMINO EFFECT FOR ALL U.S. STATES.
and if you are 18 you can still get marijuana in you get your medical card! prop 215. isnt effected by prop 19 at all.

god damnit, fuck you

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13349872 - 10/17/10 08:10 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

:megacrankey:

jesus christ, do you see that guy? he smokes weed and is against it, you sir are worse then the sheep eating up the governments propoganda.

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Invisiblecacharstar
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: laserpig]
    #13349901 - 10/17/10 08:18 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
FUCK your "industry" you goddamn selfish prick.
I have nothing to say to you.





My industry?  :ilold:





It is alright to disagree with me but to disrespect me that is another story.  Fuck what is the point of having a democracy of we are not allowed to have An opinion


This will be bad for california.  Can you not see the path this will take?  You will see.  So what you want to smoke weed legally.  Well guess what prop 19 wont legalize weed.  If anything it will make it harder to get it legalized on a national level.  It would be better to first change the national law with a prop that allows the states to do as they wish with it but for cali to undermine the federal policies on marijuana will only make it worse.  Fuck we fought a civil war over states rights and guess who lost...    Fucking hate on me but don't forget to vote.  It is in your hands.

And yes I smoke weed and am agents this prop and so are many of the ppl I know that are in The industry   

My industry :rofl2:


--------------------
:irishtoast:

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Invisiblecacharstar
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: scienceguy]
    #13349916 - 10/17/10 08:21 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

scienceguy said:
Beer is legal, and the GOOD brewers still make money...

Competition is only scary when you're bad at what you do.  :wink:




Words.


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:irishtoast:

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Offlinescienceguy
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar] * 1
    #13349929 - 10/17/10 08:24 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

"The Industry" is scared that they might have to figure out a way to be more profitable, or give up the exorbitant profits they've enjoyed as a result of growing one of the easiest plants to cultivate.

I'm sorry you're not creative enough to learn how to make it work (there are many ways to make weed a profitable living, especially if it was legal) or to get another job, but I don't see how that shortcoming on your part makes you think you should be party to continuing prohibition and negatively affecting the rights of others.

Shame on you.

:nonono:


--------------------
"Freedom starts between the ears."

Edward Abbey

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Invisiblecacharstar
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: scienceguy]
    #13349955 - 10/17/10 08:32 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

my argument agenst prop 19 is purly a wording issue. The prop is not perfect and will cause many problems. hate on me all you want but I will not back down on this.


Here is a good article.

Quote:

Arguments Against Proposition 19: Why the Marijuana Initiative is Bad for California
by Rich Deem
Introduction Prop 19 Harmless?
Proposition 19 (Regulate, Control and Tax Cannabis Act 2010) has been billed as a way to save tax payer money for law enforcement of "harmless" marijuana use and provide extra tax revenue for state and local governments. Many of the claims by proponents of Prop 19 are blatantly false.

Rich Deem
Marijuana (cannabis) is the most widely used illegal drug in many developed countries.1 California's Proposition 19, the Regulate, Control and Tax Cannabis Act 2010 (RCTCA) to be voted on this fall by the citizens of California, will decide whether marijuana will become legalized for cultivation, transportation and personal use by adults 21 years of age and older. If passed, this will be the first legalization of marijuana use for non-medical reasons in the United States.

What Prop 19 would doProposition 19 legalizes the personal cultivation (up to 25 square feet) and use and transportation of marijuana (up to one ounce).2 Of course, 25 square feet of marijuana plants produces much more than one ounce of marijuana. Although the initiative provides penalties for adults (over 18 years old) providing marijuana to minors, there is nothing in the law that prohibits minors from growing and providing marijuana to each other. Presumably their parents could be held liable, although it would have to be proven that they provided the marijuana initially.

Protected class of usersProposition 19 establishes a dangerous legal precedent by establishing marijuana use as a protected class under the law:

No person shall be punished, fined, discriminated against, or be denied any right or privilege for lawfully engaging in any conduct permitted by this Act or authorized pursuant to Section 11301 of this Act. Provided however, that the existing right of an employer to address consumption that actually impairs job performance by an employee shall not be affected.2

No on Prop 19Employers will be unable to prevent marijuana use by their employees unless they can prove that such use impairs job performance. Exactly how they would prove that marijuana use impairs job performance would be difficult, at best. It should be noted that alcohol abuse is not a protected class, whereas proposition 19 would create such a protected class for marijuana users.

Loss of federal grantsProposition 19 creates a state law that conflicts with federal drug laws. On the surface, this does not seem to be a big deal, since President Obama has stated that he won't enforce the federal law in California. However, there is another issue that could cause the loss of billions of dollars to the state. Public contracts and grants require grantees to effectively enforce the drug-free workplace requirements (which includes marijuana use) outlined by the federal government's Federal Workplace Act of 1988. Not only may schools lose their federal grants, but medical research institutions, including the one for which I work (Cedars-Sinai Medical Center), could lose millions of dollars annually.

Rights of property owners?The language of the initiative is unclear about the rights of property owners who rent to others. Section 11300 (a) provides that "cultivation on leased or rented property may be subject to approval from the owner of the property" (emphasis added).2 Since this provision does not state "shall be subject to approval," it is unclear if property owner approval is required. Property owners will be at the mercy of the courts' interpretation of this section, in light of the establishment of marijuana use as a protected class, if they attempt to block marijuana cultivation on their own property.

"Regulate and control and tax"?The title of Proposition 19, "the Regulate, Control and Tax Cannabis Act 2010" implies that marijuana is going to be regulated and controlled by the initiative. In fact, the law provides for no regulation or control, but leaves it up to local governments to initiate such controls and or regulations. In addition, there are no provisions to tax marijuana cultivation or use in the initiative. Instead, such taxation, if it ever happens will be left to local governments. In fact, a provision of the initiative specifically prevents the stat of California from taxing marijuana sales any more than the usual sales tax,3 in contrast to cigarettes and liquor. Since the enforcement of locally enacted taxation will be next to impossible, there will never be any significant revenue produced through this initiative.

Major supporters will profitMuch of the financial support for Proposition 19 comes from Richard Lee, who runs "Oaksterdam University," which teaches "students" the "fine arts" of cannabis growing, and S.K. Seymour LLC, a Medical Cannabis Provider, who would profit immensely through the estimated 90% drop in costs of marijuana, as supplies increase dramatically. There has been virtually no grassroots financial support for Prop 19.4

Adverse health effectsAs a recreational drug, marijuana is not quite as benign as most of its proponents would claim. Heavy marijuana use results in long-term effects on the brain, including lower responses in those areas which are affected by THC. Although users are able to compensate somewhat through the use of other brain areas, the long term effects of this damage, as users age, has not been determined. This damage may be responsible for impairments noted in short-term and long-term memory, along with a host of possible other psychiatric illnesses. A proportion of marijuana users become addicted and suffer from classic withdrawal symptoms upon abstinence. For a minority of users, marijuana is a gateway drug, and they proceed to use and abuse more powerful psychostimulants. Besides its effects upon the brain, marijuana use can lead to increased risks for respiratory cancers and may have some adverse cardiovascular and cerebrovascular effects in some users. Marijuana smoke has been placed on the California Proposition 65 list of carcinogenic materials, as required by California law for materials proven to cause cancer.5 Marijuana use during pregnancy has been shown to result in lower child intelligence, while increasing the incidence of mental health problems. The idea that marijuana is a harmless recreational pastime has been disproved through continuing scientific research. More information and documentation of the adverse health effects of marijuana use is available in a review of the current scientific literature.

Social costsMarijuana UseAlthough marijuana use does not universally negatively impact all individual's health, it will result in increased health care and mental health costs resulting from increased marijuana use and abuse among Californians.
6
How do we know marijuana use will increase if Prop 19 is passed? The map to the left shows the percentage of the population that use marijuana throughout the state of California. Marijuana use is nearly double in the northern counties of the state, where marijuana cultivation is much higher than in other counties. As a result of increase availability of marijuana should Proposition 19 pass, the number of people driving under the influence of marijuana will also increase dramatically, as it has in Europe, since its legalization there. In addition, there is no THC blood standard for what constitutes "driving under the influence" of marijuana, so police will fine it difficult to enforce marijuana DUI arrests. The cost in terms of increased deaths from automobile accidents could be in the hundreds to thousands of lives lost. What are they thinking? The American Academy of Pediatrics opposes the legalization of marijuana, because of increased likely abuse by adolescents.


7





Whatever you say is within your right.


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Offlinescienceguy
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13349985 - 10/17/10 08:42 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I say that's some pussy shit.  The time for action is now.  Nobody said it would be easy, but I can guarantee it will be worth it.  It's not going to be perfect at first, but how long are you willing to wait for the perfect bill, and how many more people's lives do you want to be complicit in destroying by upholding the ideas of incredibly rich prohibitionists, profiting even more than you on your selfishness?


--------------------
"Freedom starts between the ears."

Edward Abbey

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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar] * 2
    #13349996 - 10/17/10 08:45 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

cacharstar said:
It is alright to disagree with me but to disrespect me that is another story.



Why should I respect you when your attitudes are blatantly selfish and immoral?

Prop 19 is the first step in a legalization process.
It's not perfect, and it was never meant to be.
It was intentionally written to be as conservative as possible, so that it has a chance of actually passing.
Once it's passed, we build from there.

You made it abundantly clear in your original post that your reasons for being against 19 are a matter of you being comfy in your little niche in the medical marijuana system.
Yes, 19 might rock your boat a little, but this is a matter of the greater good.
Legalization, no matter how or when it happens, IS going to take some of the air out from under the wings of the current medical marijuana system -- but that is only because the current system is a loophole for thousands of people to dodge the law.
Without needing to perform that dodge, obviously less people will, and your little bubble gets deflated some.
Fucking deal with it.

Your comfy lifestyle is not worth continuing to send thousands of people to jail for the cultivation or distribution of a plant.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Offlinescienceguy
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: laserpig]
    #13350022 - 10/17/10 08:52 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I'm a medical grower, and I still support this bill.  I'd rather make my money growing fields of hemp for food, clothing, and fuel than weed anyway.


--------------------
"Freedom starts between the ears."

Edward Abbey

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13350088 - 10/17/10 09:12 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

cacharstar said:
In my opinion prop 19 will be horrible to the industry.




That is one of the MOST retarded things I've heard today.

Please show me ONE example of a free market causing quality/availability to go down.

Quote:

I will vote no on prop 19 and I urge you to do so as well.  Protect the industry.



:facepalm:

Your not worth the bullet it would take to end your miserable existence :nonono:


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: niteowl]
    #13350359 - 10/17/10 10:25 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Free market.  We are talking about an illegal substance there is no free martket.



If prop 19 passes many people will apply for licenses and start to grow.  The price will go down and the market will be flooded with average cheep weed.  Not bad for the consumer I agree.  But my point is it will still be federally illegal and not one defence of medical reasons has held up in federal court so you think a state law will help your defence.  Yea it sux that a plant is illegal.  Put your feelings aside for a moment.  I want weed to be legal.  Not semi legal. this will be great for the average pot smoker but for the state as a whole it will be a mess. Who will regulate it?  It is left up to the counties to regulate and tax it: that is a mess.  And furthermore how can you pay taxes on weed?  Are you going to put on your federal income statement profits from illegal marijuana production?  You want to set a precedence I understand that. But it won't work. 

I can't be the only person on this forum that sees the consequences of this bill.  Perhaps they are smarter then me to come on to a board full of pot smokers and come out against the bill.  Oh well hate all you want. But if you live in cali and the feds revoke welfare don't come to me...


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar] * 5
    #13350365 - 10/17/10 10:28 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

All the problems you point out are real.
BUT THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO DO IT.

There will never come a day when the president waves a wand and suddenly everything is perfect.
It's going to be a struggle all the way, and it has to start in the states.
This is how it starts. If we don't get it started, it will never be finished.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: laserpig]
    #13350403 - 10/17/10 10:42 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
There will never come a day when the president waves a wand and suddenly everything is perfect.
It's going to be a struggle all the way, and it has to start in the states.
This is how it starts. If we don't get it started, it will never be finished.





I understand.  But unless we start a campaign on the national level, there is no change.  you know weed is legal in Alaska right?  But it borders no other states so it does not effect the union as a whole. And weed is basically legal now here. who in cali has yet to pay the 35 dollars for a card? 

To be honest I just don't like that fucker Richard Lee that started this whole thing.  It is all about profits and getting him a crop of warehouse in Oakland.  He could care less about us.  He approached Oakland city council and offered to pay a 30% tax on sales if they would cap the number of clubs in Oakland. And if this takes hold, who do you think will come in and take over?  Big business.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13350412 - 10/17/10 10:46 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

A national campaign is impossible without real action being taken in the states.

My attitude here is basically that beggars can't be choosers.
Other people think that if we don't pass 19 this year, another bill will come around next year, which we can somehow guarantee will be even better.
I don't have that faith.
IMO if 19 gets shot down, it could up to a decade before anything like it comes up again.
I am not willing to wait that long.
It would be far faster to pass an imperfect bill, and work upwards from there.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13350421 - 10/17/10 10:49 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Laserpig is right. You crying because you may loose a bit of money is selfish and greedy.

:boo:

Prop 19 is the best thing that could ever happen if you want it to become 'fully legal'.

Small steps man.

This is the best chance for weed to become legal EVER ...
and for you to oppose legalization because of the reasons you mentioned is sad.

Make it legal first then hammer out the fine details, its not a hard concept.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: niteowl]
    #13350428 - 10/17/10 10:52 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

So not to sound rude but it is like saying because this fat aids infested chick wants to fuck and I want to get laid, I  will look over the obvious turn off and fuck her because I have no guarantee another chick will come along. 


:shrug:
Quote:

niteowl said:
Laserpig is right. You crying because you may loose a bit of money is selfish and greedy.

:boo:

Prop 19 is the best thing that could ever happen if you want it to become 'fully legal'.

Small steps man.

This is the best chance for weed to become legal EVER ...
and for you to oppose legalization because of the reasons you mentioned is sad.

Make it legal first then hammer out the fine details, its not a hard concept.




We all might lose.  Do you get federal grants to attent school?  Can you see where this is going?


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13350441 - 10/17/10 10:56 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

No, because AIDS is permanent, and the potentially damaging parts of prop 19 are not.
As I keep trying to get across to you, this is a STARTING POINT, not the end of the process.
If 19 passes, it will lend enormous momentum to the proponents of real legalization, and things will only get better from there.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13350450 - 10/17/10 10:59 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yea, I see it as the best chance EVER for a state to stand up to the federal government, and say .....

FUCK YOU !!!!
WE ARE GOING TO DO THIS BECAUSE IT NEEDS TO BE DONE !!!
THIS PLANT HAS BEEN ILLEGAL FOR FAR TOO LONG !!!

And your too chicken shit to do so because you may loose some profit :sad:


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: laserpig]
    #13350451 - 10/17/10 11:00 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
No, because AIDS is permanent, and the potentially damaging parts of prop 19 are not.
As I keep trying to get across to you, this is a STARTING POINT, not the end of the process.
If 19 passes, it will lend enormous momentum to the proponents of real legalization, and things will only get better from there.





I hope you are right. I just see a mess in the makin


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: niteowl]
    #13350464 - 10/17/10 11:05 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Yea, I see it as the best chance EVER for a state to stand up to the federal government, and say .....

FUCK YOU !!!!

And your too chicken shit to do so because you may loose some profit :sad:




It is not about proffit. Btw thanks for rating me a 0 for my opnion.  Do you forget that we fought a civil war over states rights?  That wound has yet to heal.  Can't you see the path this can take?  It is not about me losing money, I'll just find another scheme.  This is about way more then that.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13350522 - 10/17/10 11:26 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

cacharstar said:
It is not about proffit.




Thats all you have bitched about so far.

Quote:

Do you forget that we fought a civil war over states rights?




WTF are you talking about?
Do I think we need to have a civil war over weed? No.
But I also think that the first state that has a chance to legalize weed should

Quote:

Can't you see the path this can take?




Yes, and its all good. This is a move in the RIGHT direction and you want to shit on it :nonono:


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Newbie]
    #13350681 - 10/18/10 12:24 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

It's strange... Prop 19 might pass the same year the rest of the country elects a bunch of teapartyfags. I guess the raids will continue. They don't want to tell corporations how to run their businesses, but they want to tell the rest of us what we can smoke in our spare time and prevent gay people from marrying and women from having abortions. But if you want to start up an evil corporation to rape the earth and poison the population, go right ahead... and feel free not to serve blacks at your lunch counter because civil rights are unconstitutional.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Computerism]
    #13350812 - 10/18/10 01:14 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I saw an article recently (regrettably I don't have the link) about how at the same time that our individual rights are being eroded (specifically privacy, or at least that was the focus of the article), rights for corporations have never been stronger.
It's really a disturbing trend.
Not exactly relevant to prop 19 though, so I'll shut up about it.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: laserpig]
    #13350857 - 10/18/10 01:39 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

dude is this guy fucking serious? stoners voting no on 19??

FORGEEEDDABBOUDDIT, if you grow your own weed there is no fucking taax on it, and you can "give it to friends" free of tax.

and yeah big corporations will start up eventually but none quickly becuase they will be an obvious taget for federal prosecution. The market will be open for small time people like yourself, and

IT WILL CREATE A DOMINO EFFECT FOR OTHER STATES AND THE DRUG LEGALIZATION MOVEMENT IN GENERAL,
the silent majority of america will be able to witness that we dont all become fatass dumb hicks if we legalize marijuana, do you realize how important that is???

a person like you who smokes weed, and has a vote on the issue of legalization  but votes no because of "loopholes and bad writing" should be shot.

goodd damn, and it also gives us to challenge the feds!! if we can actually get these issues before a judge then we can get honest debate on he marijuana issue, do you realize how important that is????

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13350863 - 10/18/10 01:41 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, I do actually.
I think you hit reply on the wrong post.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13350870 - 10/18/10 01:43 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Think about the touism to california?? Great wine, hot girls and dank legal weed, think of the weed and alcohol parlors that will open up and be sick as fuck??

and if youre under 21 just get a medical card and you can legally smoke!

prop 19 is gold, not go out and get everyone you know to vote fucking yes!!!:datass:

you owe it to everyone else on shroomery who lives in states that arent as fucking awesome as california

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13350872 - 10/18/10 01:43 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

and dude not you, the guy who everyone was arguing earlier

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13350874 - 10/18/10 01:44 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Word.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13351358 - 10/18/10 08:02 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

This is like saying you wouldn't have been in favor of the civil rights movement because it might mean that they'd bring out the firehoses when you go out and march.

Of course there will be growing pains.  The legalization of hemp is one of the most dangerous things that is facing Big Food, Big Pharma, and Big Oil, and one of the most effective things you can do as a citizen nobody to take power back into your own hands from the bastards who lied to your great-grandfathers and mothers and stole it.  Those motherfuckers have lots of money and power, and will do anything to get you to think that this is a bad idea for you.  It's not.  Legalizing hemp is literally the most important thing this generation can do for the world.

By making a choice to support the legalization movement, you make a stand for supporting human rights.  By voting against it, for whatever reason, you openly admit that you believe that continuing to oppress an entire people group for exercising what should be their civil liberty to grow a plant is okay.  By what right do you force your beliefs of prohibition on others?  For your own profit?  Fucking pathetic, and complicity fascist.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13351480 - 10/18/10 08:58 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

cacharstar said:
Quote:

laserpig said:
What I'm saying is that every Californian has a strict moral obligation to vote for prop 19, because even if they don't fancy the specific regulation schemes being proposed, to vote against 19 is to endorse the unjust incarceration of thousands of innocents.

*Thanks Pris.






In my opinion prop 19 will be horrible to the industry. Yea many people knowingly broke an unjust law to engage in cultivation of marijuana and are incarcerated in jail;  But that is that.  Sux.

If 19 passes I think millions of federal dollars will be withheld in an attempt to gain control by the feds.  That and small time growers will be outta business unless I can start sending packages to you outta state.:tinfoil:  On the other hand doesn't prop 19 also allow for stricter penalties for growers not licensed?  Another issue.  That and do you really think the feds will let Oaksterdam open his warehouses? Prop 19 will probably pass. And I need a new job.  I think the quality of buds on the scene will diminish.  I see huge crops of outdoor flooding the market; homegrown.  It sux enough in the bay right now.  Go on cl and see what a qp is selling for. :facepalm:

How can I make money if these fuckers are flooding the mkt...


I have a 215 card.  I will vote no on prop 19 and I urge you to do so as well.  Protect the industry.  Possession of an ounce or less is already just an infraction in california.  We don't need this. That and if you are 18, do you really want to wait 3 years to smoke legally when you can get a card at 18 and smoke now?





I hope you don't make money because everyone that wants to smoke weed will grow their own and not buy it from some pompous jerkoff that wants to charge way more than it's worth for it.  Legalization = prices go down due to inherent risks involved no longer applying.  It's common sense that the people profiting from the current system are going to lose their asses and that's the whole point.  The quality will not diminish.  People who want to grow that are unwilling to risk the legal repercussions are just as likely to be good at growing.  If anything, there will be an exponential growth of good bud availability.

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: scienceguy]
    #13351497 - 10/18/10 09:07 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

To all those who think "we should vote no, because prop 19 isn't perfect":

Due to a drafting error in the 21st amendment, microbreweries were not allowed - even after the repeal of prohibition - until 1979.

It would have been extremely foolish for people in the 1930s to suggest to not repeal prohibition because microbreweries would not have been allowed.

At the same time, it would be foolish for people to vote no on 19 because it doesn't allow for things like smoking in public.

Look at the big picture - look at what it DOES allow. Wars are won a battle at a time.

This bill MUST pass. We must show politicians that loosening marijuana laws is no longer the minority viewpoint, but rather what the majority of the public wants, and that it is a position that is vote-able. That is when we'll see marijuana reform snowball.

:2cents:

EDIT:
Wondering what will happen to prices and quality? Availability and competition will increase.

What happens to prices when there is increased availability? What happens to quality when there is competition?

In Amsterdam you can go into a shop, name a strain, and get it for cheap. Prop 19 allows for that in California.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Green_T]
    #13353115 - 10/18/10 03:29 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Ok so for the average pot smoker this bill is great.  For the state as a whole not so great.  But we will see.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13353138 - 10/18/10 03:32 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

How is this bad for the state as a whole?


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: niteowl]
    #13353316 - 10/18/10 04:06 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Well the state is bankrupt and the supporters of the bill are claiming the added tax revinue will help ease the budget crunch.  However marijuana can be grown at home so no tax collected there. And the price will go down meannng less taxes from dispencery sales. But the main reason I think it is bad for the state as a whole is the added pressure from the federial government. We are desperately in need of federal money and I fear the passing of prop 19 will cause the feds to get funkey with our money. I think prop 19 will end up costing us more money as a whole. I don't want to be first on any liscensing list.  The first thing the DEA did as a thank you to the humbolt liscensed facilities is raid the top of the list.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar] * 2
    #13353997 - 10/18/10 06:44 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You can't make omelets if you're terrified of breaking some eggs.

You seem to be forgetting the billions your state could be saving not dragging marijuana "criminals" through a bullshit court system, to throw them in prison at the taxpayer's expense.

You don't need a dime of federal money if you grow enough hemp.  Learn to incorporate it's uses as fuel, food, medicine, and fiber, and you'll understand what Popular Science was talking about when it called hemp the first "Billion Dollar Crop" in 1938.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: scienceguy]
    #13354047 - 10/18/10 06:54 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You keep talking about growing hemp, but hemp is considered marijuana and under prop 19 and you would still only be able to grow a modest patch.  Not nearly enough hemp to survive. So you could posses an ounce of hemp.  Whoot whoot:whoo:


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13354051 - 10/18/10 06:56 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Another issue.  Will they do away with prop 215 cards?  I can posses 6 pounds and grow 99 plants.  I don't want to be restricted to a fucking ounce.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13354066 - 10/18/10 07:00 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

No, prop 19 does not repeal or in any way effect prop 215.

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13354071 - 10/18/10 07:00 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

prop 215 will still exist. no worries.. what county has 6 lbs... are you sure that is correct?

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar] * 1
    #13354090 - 10/18/10 07:05 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

cacharstar said:
You keep talking about growing hemp, but hemp is considered marijuana and under prop 19 and you would still only be able to grow a modest patch.  Not nearly enough hemp to survive. So you could posses an ounce of hemp.  Whoot whoot:whoo:





god damnbit you fucking idiot, read the motherfucking bill would ya??

Hemp farms would start up across california, and they of course would be able to grow more than 25 square feet, and dude, your fucking prop 215 card WILL NOT BE FUCKING EFFECTED. IT SAYS IT RIGHT THERE IN THE GOD DAMN BILL.

You are trying to protect your livelyhood at the expense of common mens civil rights, go fucking jump off the golden gate so we can have some real progress.

god damnit

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13354096 - 10/18/10 07:06 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

It's not perfect, but it's a start.  My long term goals are clear, and even though this bill isn't perfect to me, and doesn't allow me to cultivate hemp like an agricultural product in my backyard, I still understand that this brings me one step closer to that.  It's a work in progress.

Now, are you willing to to help stop human rights abuses, or are you going to continue to be part of the prohibition machine?


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13354097 - 10/18/10 07:07 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

annddd you are allowed to posess more than an ounce under prop 19, you just cant fucking walk around with it and flaunt it to everyone, you can have 25 pounds in your house for all they care god damnit.

And you can grow more than  25 sq feet, howq the hell will they get a warrent to come in your basement and measure your set up if they cant get a warrent for marijuana related issues anyways?!?!?

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13354103 - 10/18/10 07:08 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yea dam shure.  Under H&SC 11362.77(b)) a doctor can recremend more if the patients needs exceed  sb 420...


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13354114 - 10/18/10 07:11 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Fine you fuckers win.  I will vote yes:facepalm:


But I still think it will be a fucking mess.:tunnel:


Just vote don't be too stoned and forget.:wow:


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13354117 - 10/18/10 07:12 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

But I am still voting no on measure u!!!


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Offlinescienceguy
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar] * 1
    #13354124 - 10/18/10 07:14 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

It will be a mess, but it will be a mess that when cleaned up, will result in legal weed.

The civil rights movement wasn't won overnight, and the fight for equal rights for the LGBT community has been a series of small, but important battles.

This is another civil rights battle.  Don't let the prohibitionist try to convince you otherwise.  You Californians hold the key to freeing this country from the dark cloud of hemp prohibition.


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: scienceguy]
    #13356642 - 10/19/10 10:34 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

scienceguy said:
This is another civil rights battle.  Don't let the prohibitionist try to convince you otherwise.



That's what I keep tryin' to tell people!

I can't believe the tunnel vision some people have, that they can't recognize this as an issue of civil rights.
We're not trying to move from one method of economic finagling to another, we're trying to liberate ourselves from the restriction of personal freedoms.
Every step in that direction is a step worth taking.


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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: laserpig]
    #13356867 - 10/19/10 11:24 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

People get offended when one says marijuana prohibition is a violation of civil rights, which I can understand on some level. They say people can't choose their skin color (and thus discrimination is unfair), but they can choose whether or not they want to smoke marijuana.

However, is the addition of a choice such a bad thing?

I think a more neutral thing to say is that if you want to alter your mind, you should be able to choose something safer than alcohol. If you have the right to drink alcohol, you should also have the right to intoxicate yourself with something safer. Its like the difference between buying soda with food stamps, or gatorade.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Green_T]
    #13359737 - 10/19/10 09:39 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

A national endorsement:



For those who don't remember Joycelyn Elders, she lost her job as Surgeon General under Clinton for daring to suggest that masturbation might be a normal, healthy part of human sexuality(think of her as the anti-Christine O'Donnell).


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Edited by Silversoul (10/21/10 08:10 AM)

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Silversoul]
    #13365247 - 10/21/10 04:00 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

what a shame. i think masturbation is very healthy. i havent been sick in decades.


--------------------
notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: ManianFH]
    #13365838 - 10/21/10 09:57 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

just think of the future where kids will grow up with out DARE telling them marijuana is a dangerious poison. a generation that will grow up into a world where there is a weed plant every 20 ft.


and it all would have started here. with prop 19. the first stepping stone that won us the war. the D-day of marijuana.


:bigyesnod:


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Silversoul]
    #13365940 - 10/21/10 10:24 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
For those who don't remember Joycelyn Elders, she lost her job as Surgeon General under Clinton for daring to suggest that masturbation might be a normal, healthy part of human sexuality(think of her as the anti-Christine O'Donnell).



How fuckin' crazy is it that we still have to put up with this kind of religious bullying?

The collision between facts and Christianity is ugly as fuck.
Fortunately, only one can win in the end, and we all know which one it's gonna be
But god damn, it sure is taking a long time. :facepalm:


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: laserpig]
    #13366444 - 10/21/10 12:38 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Religious bullying is exactly what it is.  Christians bitch all the time about the "separation of church and state" being something that should allow them to puke their goddamn religious bullshit anywhere they want, protected by a state that will support their lunacy.

The whole concept was designed to protect normal people from the religious zealotry of others, and instead, it's about the "freedom" to put shit like the words "under god" into our goddamn pledge of allegiance.

It's why I can't get a loan on Sunday, and in a lot of places, can't buy booze on Sunday either.  It's why the FCC has so much power over what you and I get to watch or say on the radio.

And still, I hear the goddamn religious idiots bitch about being "persecuted."  Fuck you.  You wouldn't know what persecution was unless you were on the opposite end of your own shit festival.


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Edward Abbey

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InvisibleArden
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: scienceguy] * 4
    #13367211 - 10/21/10 04:12 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Arden]
    #13367243 - 10/21/10 04:25 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

^^ is that shit fo real?

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13368795 - 10/21/10 09:18 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Animated video in favor of prop 19


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OfflineRonaldFuckingPaul
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: DeadHearts]
    #13368877 - 10/21/10 09:33 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

lol


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: DeadHearts]
    #13369223 - 10/21/10 10:54 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DeadHearts said:
Animated video in favor of prop 19






:awetrippie:  :realawe:  :awebigvaped:

This one is good too



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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: cacharstar]
    #13369546 - 10/22/10 12:32 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The savings will be on the state level.  While the feds will still be enforcing federal law, the state's budget won't include the enforcement of federal laws in contradiction with state law.  That alone is could be billions.  Also, consider the reduced demand placed on state prisons.

Get a real job.  :crankey:

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: niteowl]
    #13369633 - 10/22/10 01:10 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

That is a really cool video niteowl



I still wish youd change the ratings to good vibes for my best friend brooke (http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showprofile.php?User=231250)

:wink::heart:


--------------------
notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: laserpig]
    #13373152 - 10/22/10 07:21 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
Quote:

scienceguy said:
This is another civil rights battle.  Don't let the prohibitionist try to convince you otherwise.



That's what I keep tryin' to tell people!

I can't believe the tunnel vision some people have, that they can't recognize this as an issue of civil rights.
We're not trying to move from one method of economic finagling to another, we're trying to liberate ourselves from the restriction of personal freedoms.
Every step in that direction is a step worth taking.



taxation and government control over peoples crops will not take us any direction i would want to go

I fear the future of pot some times.

we kinda have to just grow up at some poit and face the fact we where never "free" on paper any how

you are as free as you choose to be every moment of every day


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: notapillow] * 2
    #13373222 - 10/22/10 07:33 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

You realize that you'll be able to legally grow your own, right?
And that, just like any other product, multiple suppliers at different scales of production will exist?
In all probability, people up in NorCal will start growing weed in much the same way that people produce specialty wines and beer in microbreweries. AKA, quality, quality stuff.

You're assuming that once it's legalized, the gov't will hand it over to Monsanto and make it illegal for anyone else.
That's retarded.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: laserpig]
    #13373267 - 10/22/10 07:40 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
You're assuming that once it's legalized, the gov't will hand it over to Monsanto and make it illegal for anyone else.





incase you're like me and didn't know what hes talking about, Monsanto


never mind the president, lets over-grow the government.:feelsgoodman:


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Salomon]
    #13373342 - 10/22/10 07:55 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

amen

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: watisituya]
    #13373392 - 10/22/10 08:04 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I'm very much for legalization but prop 19 was written by big business for big business. It doesn't have the people or the plant's best interest, only big business's. People can't seem to see the forest through the trees. Most seem to be stuck on the concept of 'legalization' and are willing to take it anyway they can get it. Everyone is ready to jump at this and that's what they are banking on. CA HAS to do this and of course they are trying the most outlandish bill possible. If the people rejected it legalization wouldn't go away. CA can't afford not to get it legalized. They would come back with a way more worthy bill. One worthy of the people, not big business!

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Apes]
    #13373434 - 10/22/10 08:13 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Prop 19 allows the counties to tax and regulate cannabis themselves. Some counties are already drawing up what they would do if it passes. You know that 5x5 garden you're allowed to have? Word on the street is that the tax on having that garden could be as high as $20,000 a year. You could be in more trouble with the irs than pot could get you, especially considering California is a medical state.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: FractalDust]
    #13373449 - 10/22/10 08:18 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Yep. and if you're a grower like me then you know 25 square feet is not enough to have a true garden w/ mother plants, a veg area, and a flower room.

All people hear is the word legalization. And they can't hear anything else. They haven't read the fine print.

As Tom Wait's said, "The big print giveth and the small print taketh away"

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Apes]
    #13374540 - 10/23/10 01:55 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I'm hearing way too much 'Im gonna loose money so this is a bad idea' BULLSHIT

Fuck y'all and your profits.

:megacrankey:

If the law isn't set up for business to make money then it would NEVER FUCKING PASS :imslow:

Once businesses and the government have made their profit, then it won't be shit to amend the law.

!!!!!!!!!!!!BUT FIRST WE HAVE TO MAKE IT LEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!


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InvisibleCowgold
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Apes]
    #13374631 - 10/23/10 02:40 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Repealing alcohol's prohibition had no concerns for the mom & pop bootlegger.  :cryariver:

You're going to get ran out of business. That's the whole idea. Keep the organized criminals from making so much easy $$$ that they are no longer willing to break the law to sustain their business and all the unregulated practices they use to secure their business. 

Are you afraid of competing with a legitimate business or worse... becoming one?

The unethical and illegitimate businesses supported by drug prohibition has always been the criminal issue. Everyother drug issue is and has been civil.

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: niteowl]
    #13375114 - 10/23/10 07:57 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
I'm hearing way too much 'Im gonna loose money so this is a bad idea' BULLSHIT

Fuck y'all and your profits.

:megacrankey:

If the law isn't set up for business to make money then it would NEVER FUCKING PASS :imslow:

Once businesses and the government have made their profit, then it won't be shit to amend the law.

!!!!!!!!!!!!BUT FIRST WE HAVE TO MAKE IT LEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!




:thumbup:

The latest polls show it to be a toss-up.

GET THE FUCK OUT AND VOTE, PEOPLE!!!!

:kingcrankey:


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Apes] * 2
    #13375705 - 10/23/10 11:29 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Apes said:
Yep. and if you're a grower like me then you know 25 square feet is not enough to have a true garden w/ mother plants, a veg area, and a flower room.

All people hear is the word legalization. And they can't hear anything else. They haven't read the fine print.

As Tom Wait's said, "The big print giveth and the small print taketh away"




I have grown for years as well and realize the space needed (though I don't grow anymore because I moved out of California). You still seem to want to have a garden, but really this is for personal consumption.  You could have a mother plant and babies vegging in a small area inside and do an outdoor grow every year with just 1 or 2 plants and still have plenty to smoke. I have pulled over 2 lbs off large plants. Granted, one plant like that would take up probably more that 25 square feet but it is also more than I would smoke in a year. In Humboldt county there is no plant limit but there is a 100 sq. ft limit for medical marijuana, yet people still plant acres of their property with no problems. Do you really think that you are going to have a problem with this? The police would have no reason to come onto your property, and it's for personal use you don't really need that many plants. . I have a strong feeling your income  comes from this like every medical marijuana grower I know. Get a real job, It's not perfect but get over it.  It really is a ridiculous thing to complain about, especially since you have medical and don't have to change what you are doing at all. This is a definite step in the right direction "Oh no! I only 25 square feet!" who cares, most people will probably just buy clones in the spring and do and outdoor crop for personal consumption. If you don't work and are a medical grower who sells weed, why don't you stay off my well paved tax-paid roads. Taxes are a part of life, and if you don't agree where the government spends the money, than that has nothing to do with Proposition 19.

I guarantee you this proposition will change just like prop 215 and prop 420 were amended. There are obviously problems, like the problem that once you harvest your plant, its probably more than an ounce, especially before its dried. These issues have to be addressed, and if you think the government will arrest people for this without a public outcry you would be dead wrong, especially once this becomes a household item.

Edited by Rebirtha (10/23/10 11:35 AM)

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13376549 - 10/23/10 02:44 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

:congrats:


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: niteowl]
    #13379832 - 10/24/10 11:10 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Ive got a friend whos currently in jail in cali facing 4 and a half years for a ganja grow that was smaller than 25 square feet.
  As well as being detrimental to his health/sanity its also costing your taxpayers alot to keep him locked up!
  I say vote yes on prop 19 and free him and hundreds of other innocent men and women.

I also hope that our country (uk) sees the bennefit of this legislation and follows suit. Our economy could certainly do with the extra funds!

It may not be perfect but its defo a step in the right directin.

PLEASE IF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE ---- VOTE YES!!!


--------------------


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: shroomlover]
    #13380142 - 10/24/10 12:45 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I'm mailing in my absentee ballot tomorrow.  I've been telling everyone I know to register to vote for the last six months.  Spreading the word as much as I can.

Tell all your non-stoner friends to vote as well, we certainly need their votes.  Keep spreading the word, it's going to be down to the wire!!


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Plok]
    #13382212 - 10/24/10 08:17 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

voted :thumbup:

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: islanduniverse]
    #13388787 - 10/26/10 03:46 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

VOTED!

+1 for 19


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Shroomism]
    #13390371 - 10/26/10 01:25 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

This will help the situation in california, but the broader implications are important to me. I really hope that we don't get a negative reaction in california, and have it turn the tide of sentiment against the drug war.

best case, which I think is a possibility, is a reconsideration of drug policy generally, state-by-state and eventually federally

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: PoisonCrazy]
    #13390812 - 10/26/10 03:13 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I swear if you fuck this up California, I will NEVER forgive you.

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: LicHmicrO] * 1
    #13390904 - 10/26/10 03:33 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

What is so sad is that, there are pot smokers that will vote against this :nonono:


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: niteowl]
    #13391130 - 10/26/10 04:24 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

^^^

went promoting today at glendale community college, every professor that i tried to talk to, just looked at me and said "don't bother, i already voted", "voted yes?"  "duhh voted yes", alot of the students were uniformed or uninterested, but many said they were going to vote yes and asked where the polls were, handed out alot of flyers

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13391361 - 10/26/10 05:20 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Im skeptical of college kids actually getting out to vote

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Chespirito]
    #13391521 - 10/26/10 05:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Chespirito said:
Im skeptical of college kids actually getting out to vote




That is when people are actually politically very active, and especially so about marijuana and other social issues.


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Green_T]
    #13391852 - 10/26/10 07:13 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Green_T said:
Quote:

Chespirito said:
Im skeptical of college kids actually getting out to vote




That is when people are actually politically very active, and especially so about marijuana and other social issues.



ehhh, not so. College kids don't vote very well. Once people start voting they tend to keep voting, which almost guarantees students will be outnumbered, even as a %

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OfflineHappy2fly
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: PoisonCrazy]
    #13394524 - 10/27/10 10:29 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PoisonCrazy said:
Quote:

Green_T said:
Quote:

Chespirito said:
Im skeptical of college kids actually getting out to vote




That is when people are actually politically very active, and especially so about marijuana and other social issues.



ehhh, not so. College kids don't vote very well. Once people start voting they tend to keep voting, which almost guarantees students will be outnumbered, even as a %




College kids like me were able to elect a WWF wrestler, Jesse "the mind" Ventura, as governor of MN!


--------------------
The fire has many things to teach.
But so does the human experience.. which is like fire, sometimes you just need to stoke the coals and sometimes you just need to add a log or reposition the log matrix. But a well built fire will be much more self-sustaining than a poorly built one, and they all need love to grow. And don't fuck around or your might burn yourself. Must always respect the fire. - Shroomism

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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Happy2fly]
    #13396037 - 10/27/10 04:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)



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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: I AM SWIM]
    #13399201 - 10/28/10 04:20 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Prop 19 Trails in Two More Polls, But Glimmers of Hope Remain
Quote:

California's tax and regulate marijuana legalization initiative, Proposition 19, is trailing in two more polls, adding to a run of disappointing poll results as election day draws near. According to the Talking Points Memo Polltracker, five separate polls in the past week have Prop 19 losing by an average of 50.3% to 42.6%. (A Yes on 19 internal poll not included in the Polltracker has the measure ahead 45% to 42%.)

A SurveyUSA poll released Wednesday had the measure trailing 44% to 46%, well with the poll's 4% margin of error. As SurveyUSA put it, "not yet enough breathing room for 'No' to be considered a clear favorite, but enough of a 'Yes' erosion for backers to be gravely concerned."

A CNN/Time poll released Tuesday was worse. It had Prop 19 losing 53% to 45%, with a +/-3.5% margin of error, among likely voters. (The numbers were slightly better for registered voters, 51% to 47%). The measure trailed among both men (46%) and women (44%) and whites (42%) and non-whites (49%). Only among liberals (76%), voters under 50 (57%), Democrats (55%), and the San Francisco Bay area (55%) was Prop 19 polling a majority.

The CNN/Time poll measured responses from 1,328 registered voters and 888 likely voters. The poll was conducted by phone interview.

The SurveyUSA poll is worrisome because a series of SurveyUSA polls as recent as October 18 had Prop 19 winning, but it does hold some faint glimmers of hope. It measured both likely and actual voters—early voting has been going on for several weeks now—and it also polled cell phone users. Among people who only had cell phones, Prop 19 led, 48% to 36%. It also led among people who rarely vote in mid-term elections, 53% to 39%. And it led among people who had not yet voted, 45% to 42%, while trailing among those had already voted, 43% to 54%.

Those poll finding suggest that the initiative could still emerge victorious if it can get the young and tech-savvy and the "unlikely voters" who may be motivated by the issue to actually get out and vote. Prop 19 and its allies have been whipping their get out the vote campaign hard, and this week's million dollar infusion  courtesy of George Soros may still give it the oomph to get over the final hurdle on Tuesday.



-Stop the Drug War.org

It is trailing in the latest polls. As this article states, it depends on the younger people actually getting out to vote. Remember not everyone who smokes is as passionate about this issue as we are: remind people this issue is on the ballot. Post something up on your facebook the day of the election or the day prior to remind people about this important issue.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

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Invisibledanielx
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Green_T]
    #13400669 - 10/28/10 12:41 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

its a real shame prop 19 isn't passing. Coming from a Californian, even the weed smokers down here aren't in unanimous support of it. If we can't rally our own, how do we possibly expect to win? Its a real shame that Richard Lee had to write the bill with his pocketbook in mind, not the general well being of the community.

I'd love to eat my words, but you heard it here first folks.


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Long live kratom :kratom:

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OfflineI AM SWIM
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: danielx]
    #13400765 - 10/28/10 12:56 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

just wait til tomorrow, u will see the magic of :feelsgoodman: doin' thangs with prop 19

it was gonna be doin' thangs today, but it's gonna be doin' thangs tomorrow, there was a slight delay in doin' thangs, but still there was a lil bit of doin' thangs.


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OfflineRhapsode
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: I AM SWIM]
    #13401492 - 10/28/10 03:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

you're overdoing it with doin' thangs, don't kill that shit :scared:

a friend of mine, a medical user, posted "prop 19 = lame" on facebook. another friend immediately replied with "prop 215 = win." there were, by the time i read this status, 30 comments, most people trying to change the OP's mind and the OP retardedly berating them.

i came in, brought up how it's a civil rights issue, refuted every point he made and basically called him out on his dumbfuckery and selfishness. he said he agreed with me but was still voting no.

again i called him out, saying he says he agreed with me but everything he said previous to my post says otherwise, and that he was again voting no for selfish reasons. i implored him to vote yes on prop 19 and told him i could refute any disagreements he had.

he posted today saying that he agrees with the overall points i made and said he was still voting no as of yet, but he's beginning to be swayed and will do some research before making his final decision.

today, i'm hoping i can convince him to change his mind.




i cannot believe the amount of stupidity i've seen in interpreting this issue. :facepalm:


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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan
:strokebeard:

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OfflineI AM SWIM
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Rhapsode]
    #13401511 - 10/28/10 03:11 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rhapsode said:
you're overdoing it with doin' thangs, don't kill that shit :scared:





i'd only be overdoing it if i was overdoing it,

i'm overdoin' it.


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Offlinescienceguy
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Rhapsode]
    #13401633 - 10/28/10 03:34 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rhapsode said:
i cannot believe the amount of stupidity i've seen in interpreting this issue. :facepalm:





I know, from pot smokers no less!  Wait...


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"Freedom starts between the ears."

Edward Abbey

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Offlinepropensity
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: scienceguy]
    #13402576 - 10/28/10 06:18 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Newbie I don't think you should have closed that thread with the taiwanese video.

That was more about the ridiculous video and hardly about prop 19 in general.


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Offlinerealfuzzhead
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: propensity]
    #13402608 - 10/28/10 06:24 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

gotta fuckin win...

gotta fuckin win..


all the teachers and msot of my friends mom are voting yes

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OfflineManianFH
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13404598 - 10/29/10 02:24 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I dont see how this prop was written in Richard Lee's best interests. He put his own money out there our of concern for social equality; the people against prop 19 using that argument are easily transparent for their own selfish reasons.


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notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."

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OfflineRhapsode
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: ManianFH]
    #13404668 - 10/29/10 02:54 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

most of the arguments i've seen against prop 19 have come from self-serving card holders who don't wish to give up their privileged cannabis.

it's sickening, especially because one of the people i'm having a debate with is somewho i fell out of touch with, but who was a great friend and free-thinker who's too caught up in his selfish desires to see the greater good.


his argument against prop 19? "i think all the people voting yes are too lazy to get their cannabis cards."

:facepalm: :sad:


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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan
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OfflineSublimeFlaBoy
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Rhapsode]
    #13405164 - 10/29/10 08:36 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I live in Fla so this won't impact me directly but I hope it passes because it will encourage other states to pass simular measures and may eventualy lead to the fed changing it's bullshit anti-weed laws.


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: SublimeFlaBoy]
    #13406516 - 10/29/10 02:35 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)


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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: PreparationH]
    #13408334 - 10/29/10 09:27 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)


NORML; please support prop 19, folks


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EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT


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Offlineradicaljonny
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Re: Official Proposition 19 Discussion [Re: Salomon]
    #13410827 - 10/30/10 02:47 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I, like many in this thread, am always shocked to see people say they are AGAINST the legilization of cannabis...especially people who have grown to appreciate this beautiful herb we all love so much.

With that said, I will say I think drug society or "the pot industry" is as corrupt a concept as any other industrial or society driven ideal. 

Cannabis is a plant.  A plant, like many other plants, that has medicinal and recreation uses [hell, there are whole fields of medicine using only plants and herbs that have been in use for thousands of years]. 

And as I see it, through some very corrupt, idealistic and twisted thought process humans decided it would be the right move to outlaw certain plants.  As if to say, "We are here and have the right to exist but these plants do not! They are merely imposters on our land! Anyone caught with such plants will be punished!!"

uhh...now back in times when people of color were thought to be unholy men and woman were considered less than men, I am not suprised that many reached the conclusions they did...

BUT NOW, we are in a time of global connectivity.  Humans have become one in awareness.  In the past 60 years we have began to shed the low-level thinking we held so tightly to for thousands of years.  More walls are being broken down everyday! The walls we fought for so long to keep high and strong.  Ideas of seperation are being replaced by ideas of oneness.  It is about time we realize we cannot outlaw plants...we cannot outlaw nature.  And sure enough we should not punish each other for such realizations!

To deny such thinking based on maintaining some sort of industry or society is the exact reason it became illegal in the first place! Somethings are more "true" than any industry or society could be...things like plants, nature, compassion...things that all lead to one thought...End this ridiculous prohibition on this beautiful plant and free our brothers and sisters who have lost soooo much thanks to this unjust and corrupt law.

And for those who continue to support these absurd laws--I hope and pray that you, your family and friends never fall victim to the very laws you continue to support so that you can make a quick buck!


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"We are fascinated by these words, but where we meet is in the silence behind them."

Edited by radicaljonny (10/30/10 02:53 PM)

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