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Crobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
#1327889 - 02/23/03 01:42 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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ok
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EchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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For your information, here are the rules again (with slight modifications in bold):
Every player is allowed to submit ONE principle of organization or rule that defines the "right", the "good", the "just", or the "ideal" State. Once a principle has been submitted, it cannot be submitted again (multiple votes for the same principle do not give more weight).
Every submitted principle will be considered valid (unless vetoed) and be incorporated into the mock "Constitution".
Instead of submitting a principle, a player may choose to use his or her ballot to "veto" a principle that has already been submitted. Once a principle has been vetoed, it cannot be submitted again, and the player who proferred the veto is ineligble to submit a principle of his or her own.
The first person to initiate play will be allowed to submit TWO principles. Players 2 & 3 will be able to submit ONE VETO IN ADDITION TO THEIR SUBMITTED PRINCIPLES. They may keep this veto in reserve and use it at any point in the game. The LAST player will NOT be allowed to submit a principle, only to veto an existing principle or simply to remain silent.
Some principles will logically contradict one another, even though the second of the two was not necessarily submitted as a "veto" of the first. In such cases every effort will be made to accomodate compromise versions of the two principles, if such a thing is possible. If it is impossible, the two principles will cancel one another out (the second principle acting there as a de facto "veto").
In general, the game will be more interesting if the submitted principles are neither too specific nor too broad. If somebody submits, for example, that "The best State is no State" (i.e., pure Anarchy), most of the other principles (which logically presume the existence of a State of SOME sort) will contradict it and essentially render it pointless. On the other hand, if somebody submits something like "15% of government revenue should be spent on Medicare" we are leaving the realm of principles and entering the realm of policy.
The following registered players are the only ones allowed to play in this round:
Larrythescaryrex (if he's around) Dilauded (or whatever he's called now) Skikid16 PeachMan I Fart Blue Rono mushmaster stonedfish MushyMay Crobih pattern Innvertigo
Since I'm wearing both hats as player and as referee, in the interests of fairness I will leave it to someone else to go first.
In any event, I envision this first round as a kind of trial run. If it is successful, maybe more people will participate next time around and the results will be considerably more interesting.
The floor is now open for the first player to submit his or her TWO principles of "The Ideal State" . . .
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Anonymous
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1: The right to do as desired in the privacy of one's home shall not be infringed, provided said action does not infringe on another's basic rights as a human being (life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness).
2: The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Some definitions- Right: obvious, a principle which exists for every person under every circumstance Infringe: in ANY way to violate or reduce the power of a right. If a right is not to be infringed, any laws containing said right are automatically illegal
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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3. freedom of religion, speech, and the press, and grants the right to petition for redress and to assemble peaceably.
-------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Anonymous
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Personal Freedom: drugs, prostitution, pornography, gambling, and firearms shall be legal for adults. no laws against obsenity or indecent exposure.
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MushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD
Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: Here Goes! [Re: ]
#1332226 - 02/24/03 03:26 PM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Was that not too broad? It seems to overlap some of the other principles.
-------------------- MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 1 year, 29 days
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4) Every child, at the age of 16 and under has the right to free education.
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
Edited by Rono (02/24/03 03:31 PM)
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pattern
multiplayer
Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 4 years, 16 days
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5) All peaceful acts shall be legal. A peaceful act is defined as the action of a person which does not harm another person.
-------------------- man = monkey + mushroom
Edited by pattern (02/24/03 03:46 PM)
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Here Goes! [Re: pattern]
#1332986 - 02/24/03 11:40 PM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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kinda broad i would say
-------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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EchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Innvertigo is the 2nd player and is therefore entitled to a veto later on in the game, should he choose to exercise it.
I believe MushyMay is correct that mushmaster's principle simply restates, more or less, the principles enumerated by stonedfish and Innvertigo. I would therefore recommend to mushmaster that he make good use of his turn and submit a different principle.
This being the case, Rono is officially the 3rd player and is therefore also entitled to a veto later in the game, should he choose to exercise it.
Pattern's principle is problematic because it does not adequately define "harm." Does economic fraud count as "harm" or not? Why or why not? I would like to invite Pattern to define his principle more fully before we decide whether it is too broad or not. Pattern may wish to stick to his principle as stated, but that presents a big temptation to somebody else to veto it.
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Anonymous
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ok. i recind my ammendment. i will use mine to veto the amendment that "all peaceful acts be legal"... on the grounds that business fraud is peaceful, polluting is peaceful, etc.
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MushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD
Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: Progress Report [Re: ]
#1334393 - 02/25/03 10:08 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm using my vote to veto stonedfish's 2nd principle:
2: The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
-------------------- MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Progress Report [Re: MushyMay]
#1334523 - 02/25/03 10:53 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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uh oh...
-------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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EchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Here are the principles still standing:
1: The right to do as desired in the privacy of one's home shall not be infringed, provided said action does not infringe on another's basic rights as a human being (life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness).
2. freedom of religion, speech, and the press, and grants the right to petition for redress and to assemble peaceably.
3. Every child, at the age of 16 and under has the right to free education.
To this I will add my own principle:
4. Political leaders shall be chosen by democratic majority election. The privilege (not right) to vote is contingent upon: A) reaching the age of majority, and B) passing a basic competency test of functional literacy and knowledge of the constitution of the land. The test will not be prohibitively difficult: just basic functional literacy and knowledge of the key principles.
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EchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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I just want to give everyone a reminder that once a principle has been vetoed, it cannot be brought back to life by virtue of a second submission by somebody else. The purpose of this game is not actually to create an ideal state (we don't have the means at our disposal to do that anyway) but rather to try to find out what basic principles are minimally acceptable to everyone, in order to find the common ground that we all share.
I'm also beginning to think that since so few people seem to be participating, maybe we should try giving everybody TWO principles to submit (three for stonedfish, since he went first) just to make things a little more interesting and complex. What do you think?
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 1 year, 29 days
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or we could just include everyone in the political forum...not just those on the list...
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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EchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: Progress Report [Re: Rono]
#1334648 - 02/25/03 11:33 AM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
or we could just include everyone in the political forum...not just those on the list...
That's a possibility, but it would change the dynamics of the game completely. Random folks could just come along vetoing everything in sight, the game would become more one of strategy than of finding common principles, and there would also be the problem of knowing when to stop--set an arbitrary deadline, maybe? For this round, my feeling is we should stick to the registered players. Next round we can open it up to the whole forum and see what happens.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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i'd say only include those that actually debate in this forum.....dare say: post count?...or sumthin' we all know who comes around a lot.
-------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
Edited by Innvertigo (02/25/03 11:42 AM)
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Crobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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1. full transparency of all the state stuff. 2. drugs for everyone, except underage and pregnents. 3. internet in every home
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EchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: Progress Report [Re: Crobih]
#1335019 - 02/25/03 01:32 PM (21 years, 1 month ago) |
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I appreciate your enthusiasm, crobih, but you need to limit yourself to one PRINCIPLE. I don't know what you mean by "drugs for everyone." Do you mean the state should actually PROVIDE people with drugs? Well, that would be a first. Your first idea sounds pretty good--full transparency for all state deliberations and actions. That may create some problems in terms of national security, so you may want to revise it a bit, but anyway it's your call. In any event, please try to limit yourself to ONE.
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