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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Spooge]
    #13349215 - 10/17/10 05:51 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Veganism and vegetarianism is NOT the way to stop animal cruelty...

You just need to be more aware of where the specific meat that you eat is coming from.  If you feel so guilty about the way that the animals that you eat are treated, then get your meat from somewhere else (if other options are available).

My father is a cattle farmer.  His cows have acres and acres of fields to graze on, and generally get supplemented daily with hay also.  He generally slaughters one or two cows a year, and gets enough beef from it to fill up the freezers of everyone in our immediate family.  He also sells a few steers every year to other local farmers who want good beef.  Yes, I am biased on the subject - but I know that it is possible to eat meat without supporting the cruelty of the industrial beef industry.  Yes, the steers lives are shorter than they would be if just left alone in the field but they are slaughtered humanely and have excellent lives up until that point (probably better than most wild animals).  The female cows are never slaughtered for meat (unless they break a leg or something and are doomed anyway) I know that most meat sources are not so kind to their animals, but just because some are bad doesn't mean they all are.

And there are a few facts to keep in mind:

-Most domesticated species can NOT survive without humans to care for them and protect them. They have been bred specifically to make meat (or milk/eggs/whatever) for human consumption. Yes, they should be treated humanely, but they should also fulfill their purpose.

-Supporting humane meat sources instead of (inhumane) corporate meat sources is probably better for the animals themselves than abstaining from meat altogether.

-Small-scale farms need support in order to continue their humane practices.  Keeping cattle in good conditions is not cheap, selling off some of the herd yearly for some money is about the only way that small farmers can afford to keep the majority of their cows in comfort for all of their long lives!

I understand vegetarianism if you live in a place where the only place you can buy meat is from a supermarket that doesn't tell you where they come from, or from a fast food joint.

If you do have alternative sources, however, keep this in mind!


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Shroomerette]
    #13349458 - 10/17/10 06:46 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

-Most domesticated species can NOT survive without humans to care for them and protect them. They have been bred specifically to make meat (or milk/eggs/whatever) for human consumption. Yes, they should be treated humanely, but they should also fulfill their purpose.





Who are we to assign a purpose to the livesw of others, if that purpose means killing them for it?


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Shroomerette]
    #13349498 - 10/17/10 06:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

-Supporting humane meat sources instead of (inhumane) corporate meat sources is probably better for the animals themselves than abstaining from meat altogether.





Although I am an avid meat eater who never cared where and what it was I ate, this is the approach I'm going to try and adopt.

No more meat from the big grocery stores.  I have a local farmer's market that I plan to take full advantage of

We'll see though.  meat is a staple in my diet, I eat it way more than I should.  Especially after seeing that video, among others.

I need some diet changes

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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Asante]
    #13349545 - 10/17/10 07:06 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Quote:

-Most domesticated species can NOT survive without humans to care for them and protect them. They have been bred specifically to make meat (or milk/eggs/whatever) for human consumption. Yes, they should be treated humanely, but they should also fulfill their purpose.





Who are we to assign a purpose to the livesw of others, if that purpose means killing them for it?




Well they wouldn't be around if our ancestors had not domesticated them.  They will not continue to be around if nobody eats them or products derived from them.  Would you like to release them into the wilderness so they can be free? Or keep cows as pets?  Or just let them go extinct when farmers can't make a living by keeping them and are forced sell their land or transition it to some other purpose?

I'm pretty sure that if you released them into the wild they would all be dead within a year - or become a huge nuisance and eat up all the soybean crops that vegans depend on to survive.

Maybe it would be better to have the whole species die out instead of having some exist just to suffer for most of their lives, but I don't think it's the best way.

And Zooofthemoon: good for you!


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Edited by Shroomerette (10/17/10 07:06 PM)

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OfflineTri High
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Shroomerette]
    #13349585 - 10/17/10 07:15 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Animals can adapt way better than you're realizing.

And you're giving vegans, nay people!, way more credit than they're worth.

useless eaters, the lot of us.  consumers.  destruct0rs.

Fuck humanity.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Shroomerette]
    #13349601 - 10/17/10 07:18 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerette said:
And there are a few facts to keep in mind:

-Most domesticated species can NOT survive without humans to care for them and protect them. They have been bred specifically to make meat (or milk/eggs/whatever) for human consumption. Yes, they should be treated humanely, but they should also fulfill their purpose.




load of crap, cows didnt forget how to eat simply because man has bred them

Quote:

-Supporting humane meat sources instead of (inhumane) corporate meat sources is probably better for the animals themselves than abstaining from meat altogether.




why is corporate meat so immoral, earlier there was a link to an organic
outfit being cruel to their little veals, I bet they were corporate too,
in fact I'd bet anything that the vast majority of farms, 99% at least
are in fact incorporated, even the mom and pop places

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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Tri High]
    #13349626 - 10/17/10 07:26 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Yes humanity is pretty awful, I agree with that. Mostly just because there are way too many of us. The world would be better off if there were far fewer of us, or if we weren't here altogether. 

I also agree that some of the domestic animals could adapt pretty well to freedom.  Pigs are already great at it...they escape and a few years later they look and act like wild boars. However, since I have the most firsthand knowledge about cows, I still think that if you released all the cows the majority would die from starvation or predators.  I guess we could do like they do in India and let them wander around our streets and feed them occasionally.  I don't see that happening personally...

Also it is cool that cows take something that we can't eat (grass and hay) and turn it into something that we can eat. How efficient is that?


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Spooge]
    #13349647 - 10/17/10 07:31 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ZoooftheMoon said:
  Pris, if you are taking the ignorance stance like it's not happening, please prove me wrong.  Show me some video footage and well sourced journalism that proves otherwise?




you mean well sourced like the peta and other animal rights orgs
produce, I'm not saying it doent happen at all, I'm saying that it's
minimal, less than 1%, farmers cant make money off of abused animals



Quote:


Pris, you like to pick apart sentences and paragraphs to suit you.




it doesnt change the context of what's said, it just shows some foolishness in the argument


Quote:

Not everywhere does this, but a lot of the larger operations as seen in many videos, pump the animals full of growth horomones, antibiotics and other things.  They have milk cows hooked up to machinery, standing in one place most of the day.  The average life expetancy of a cow CAN be around 18-20 years, yet the average for a milk cow hooked up to machines all day is around 4 years.




actually the average work cycle for dairy cattle before retirement is
around 12 years, sure retirement in this instance doesnt include a gold
watch and a vacation home on Boca. these cows get milked a couple times
a day, unless you can produce a time lapse video showing that they are
milked for extended periods, for most it's 20-30 minutes before they're
dry, after that you're just stopping milk production from those animals
for extended periods, why would they murder their profits?

pumping antibiotics into cattle is ineffective, it's been figured out
long ago that it's counterproductive and you obviously dont know much
about the hormones used, you're just repeating what you hear

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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13349663 - 10/17/10 07:34 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Shroomerette said:
And there are a few facts to keep in mind:

-Most domesticated species can NOT survive without humans to care for them and protect them. They have been bred specifically to make meat (or milk/eggs/whatever) for human consumption. Yes, they should be treated humanely, but they should also fulfill their purpose.




load of crap, cows didnt forget how to eat simply because man has bred them

Quote:

-Supporting humane meat sources instead of (inhumane) corporate meat sources is probably better for the animals themselves than abstaining from meat altogether.




why is corporate meat so immoral, earlier there was a link to an organic
outfit being cruel to their little veals, I bet they were corporate too,
in fact I'd bet anything that the vast majority of farms, 99% at least
are in fact incorporated, even the mom and pop places




Of course they don't forget to eat.  They just won't have many ideal places to eat though probably.  Farmers will probably turn their land to growing some kind of crop, and you bet they will fence it to keep all the hungry cows out.  In most places that will leave them forests, and people's lawns to eat from, and cows are not meant to eat leaves and twigs and whatnot that they would be able to find in the forests.  I would forsee a lot of traffic accidents from them trying to get at lawns.

I don't fully understand your second point there, but I wasn't trying to say that all corporate meat is evil or that all non-corporate meat is from humanely treated animals. The things that most people seem to have issues with are the videos of massive amounts of animals being mistreated by corporations.  I was kind of making a generalization there.


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OfflineTri High
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Shroomerette]
    #13349700 - 10/17/10 07:41 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

It's not because there's too many of us, exactly, in my opinion, but I'll agree to disagree with you.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Shroomerette]
    #13349704 - 10/17/10 07:41 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerette said:
Of course they don't forget to eat.  They just won't have many ideal places to eat though probably.  Farmers will probably turn their land to growing some kind of crop, and you bet they will fence it to keep all the hungry cows out.  In most places that will leave them forests, and people's lawns to eat from, and cows are not meant to eat leaves and twigs and whatnot that they would be able to find in the forests.  I would forsee a lot of traffic accidents from them trying to get at lawns.





most meat farmers would sell their land and retire, they know livestock,
not dirt, they typically arent equipped to handle swapping over,
something that's extremely costly


and yes, the cattle would get into traffic like deer, squirrels, moose,
possum and every other critter so we'd have to put them all down and
have billions of rotting corpses in order to save just one human life
Quote:

The things that most people seem to have issues with are the videos of massive amounts of animals being mistreated by corporations.  I was kind of making a generalization there.




people tend to see one video and believe what the narrator says, that
it's widespread throughout the industry, the industry in the US isnt
the rest of the world but to hear you guys talk about it the people that
got into cattle would have been executing the jews if the cows weren't handy

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OfflineSpooge
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13349724 - 10/17/10 07:44 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

And you just keep reiterating your stance over and over again.

Quote:

you mean well sourced like the peta and other animal rights orgs
produce, I'm not saying it doent happen at all, I'm saying that it's
minimal, less than 1%, farmers cant make money off of abused animals




You still didn't provide anything as requested.  What I've seen is better then anything you've tried to convince me off.  You say it's minimal...where is the convincing data?  I'm a person willing to change my stance if you have something that can sway me.

Quote:


it doesnt change the context of what's said, it just shows some foolishness in the argument




In that particular instance it did change the context.  I was trying to express how I knew that animals eat animals, which includes humans eating other species.  You took the "animals eat animals. fact." that I said and responded, "humans are animals and humans kill animals for survival. FACT"...which is something I had concluded in that very paragraph.  You, picking apart one part of the sentance and tried to one up me or something.  I think I clearly agreed with you before you even responded with your one liner.  Did I not?

Quote:

actually the average work cycle for dairy cattle before retirement is
around 12 years,




Again, maybe I'm being naive on what I've already seen or read, but where's YOUR proof of this claim?

Quote:

this instance doesnt include a gold
watch and a vacation home on Boca. these cows get milked a couple times
a day, unless you can produce a time lapse video showing that they are
milked for extended periods, for most it's 20-30 minutes before they're
dry, after that you're just stopping milk production from those animals
for extended periods, why would they murder their profits?





This sounds reasonable.  What an existence though.  Being led in to be hooked up to machines in a small stall a few hours a day.  In saying that though, I guess it's not much different than an office worker who goes to work only because he has to and sits in a cubicle 8 hours a day.

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OfflineSpooge
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13349738 - 10/17/10 07:47 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

people that
got into cattle would have been executing the jews if the cows weren't handy




No one said that

I made an analogy concerning one particular statement by a member, but no one said anything like that.  Now who's out of context :smirk:

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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13349740 - 10/17/10 07:47 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah they would sell the land to someone who would use it for agriculture, or to build a housing development, or something useful. I doubt anyone would buy it so that the freeloading cows could keep getting dinner there XD

Yes I completely agree with you on the second point.  I am testifying firsthand that all meat products are not derived from tortured animals :smile:. I don't know how widespread it is, but if people get their meat from animals that they know have had good lives then they have no reason to feel guilty about eating it!


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OfflineNymphaea
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Shroomerette]
    #13349749 - 10/17/10 07:48 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerette said:
Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Quote:

-Most domesticated species can NOT survive without humans to care for them and protect them. They have been bred specifically to make meat (or milk/eggs/whatever) for human consumption. Yes, they should be treated humanely, but they should also fulfill their purpose.





Who are we to assign a purpose to the livesw of others, if that purpose means killing them for it?




Well they wouldn't be around if our ancestors had not domesticated them.  They will not continue to be around if nobody eats them or products derived from them.  Would you like to release them into the wilderness so they can be free? Or keep cows as pets?  Or just let them go extinct when farmers can't make a living by keeping them and are forced sell their land or transition it to some other purpose?

I'm pretty sure that if you released them into the wild they would all be dead within a year - or become a huge nuisance and eat up all the soybean crops that vegans depend on to survive.

Maybe it would be better to have the whole species die out instead of having some exist just to suffer for most of their lives, but I don't think it's the best way.

And Zooofthemoon: good for you!




Your right, they wouldn't be around if our ancestors didn't choose to domesticate them, they wouldn't be around in the form they have now.  They would still have their DNA that allowed them to survive in the wild.

I'm not saying domestication was wrong, it happened naturally through evolution.  I am just saying it may have had some unfortunate consequences.  Domestication and agriculture fueled the boom in human population over the last 10,000 years.  Interestingly, some of the scariest diseases come from animals now days.  And our biggest killers, heart disease and cancer, are heavily linked to the food we eat.  Making a conscious choice on such an instinctual behavior such as eating is extremely hard. 

Humans are wed to agriculture and domestication now days.  Like the cows who can no longer survive in their "natural" environment like they could 10,000 years ago, we can no longer survive in our "natural" environment like we could 10,000 years ago.

Evolution is driven by domination, perhaps that is why we are so good at it?  If that is true, if we are species of dominator's, then what does that say about the current world system?  What does that say about our country?  What does that say about our constant state of war, our military industrial complex?  What does that say about our disputes with China and Russia.

Holy SHIT I'm RANTING

lol

:vaped:

:potleaf:

I'm about to eat some firecrackers.

Anyways, I think if we want to save ourselves from ourselves, we must also learn to save this planet from ourselves.


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Shroomerette]
    #13349757 - 10/17/10 07:49 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

but if people get their meat from animals that they know have had good lives then they have no reason to feel guilty about eating it!




That's enough for me.  But that on it's own...doesn't that seem a bit demented?  I'm sure that's not how all people feel.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Spooge]
    #13349758 - 10/17/10 07:49 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ZoooftheMoon said:
You still didn't provide anything as requested.  What I've seen is better then anything you've tried to convince me off.




you're trying to restrict me while you have none, I wont play that game


Quote:

Quote:

actually the average work cycle for dairy cattle before retirement is
around 12 years,




Again, maybe I'm being naive on what I've already seen or read, but where's YOUR proof of this claim?




where's your proof that they only live a couple of years and spend most of the day hooked to machines?

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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Nymphaea]
    #13349773 - 10/17/10 07:51 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I liked your rant Nymph.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Nymphaea]
    #13349793 - 10/17/10 07:56 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Nymphaea said:
Your right, they wouldn't be around if our ancestors didn't choose to domesticate them, they wouldn't be around in the form they have now.  They would still have their DNA that allowed them to survive in the wild.





I was told that domesticated cats and dogs wouldnt survive in the wild
yet there's huge populations of feral animals all over the world, feral
pigs that were once in captivity, got loose and have lived a happy life,
breeding an being pigs. what survival instinct was bred out of them?
would they run from a pack of wild dogs, a bear or cougar or has that
been bred out of them just like the instinct the eat grass

why couldnt they survive?

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OfflineSpooge
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Re: I think I'll eat Tofu more often from now on. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13349798 - 10/17/10 07:57 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

you're trying to restrict me while you have none, I wont play that game
Quote:



You use similiar tactics all the time.  Even in a thread where more than one video, link and picture has been posted.  What have you posted besides your "I feel..." statements?

I want proof.  requesting it from someone spouting some pretty hefty certainties is not "restricting you".


Why am I forced to continue finding links and videos and you only need to provide opinions on the material?  I think it's time YOU buck up and start providing stuff.

This is from my province even

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:0kRm4YYJNOAJ:72.249.118.135/files/bc_spca_factsheet_dairy_production_1.pdf+milking+cows+have+low+life+expectancy&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjcsLsoEHXLJVra9fvaSiebQJpRL-ETTUntdpKyr8fwyC_rrnws0_DMjq72dSt1X1EeDqGwRQjLCDXaPKcNtBefVsXnd4ZPhRrFs_nX_jYC_q98DNOIZK1jtFU0psaCvPzY98vX&sig=AHIEtbTv-RRLyJo_u-rQobX1RD6bG35rMw

"The average life-span of a dairy cow on a commercial farm is about 5 years (2.5 lactations)."

"In 2010, there will be an average of 9.2 million cows
being milked each day in America's dairy herds. This
year, thirty-five percent of those cows will be "culled"
from their herds and sent to slaughterhouses to be
replaced by younger and more productive animals. That
adds up to 3,220,000 dairy cows slaughtered.

This year, 415,000 cows will die as a consequence of
their role in producing the milk"

Not regarding age, but I threw it in to show the death rates

http://ajudem-nos.blogspot.com/2010/01/how-many-cows-die-to-feed-americas-milk.html

As well, I said that your comments on the cows only being milked 2-3 times a day sounded reasonable.

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