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Offlinejimbotron
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The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud
    #13334953 - 10/14/10 09:01 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

http://www.grist.org/article/koch-brothers-tea-party-connections-confirmed-video/

Quote:

The billionaire Koch brothers have long claimed that they have no direct connection to the Tea Party, denying that their vast oil wealth is directly funding corporate front groups like Americans For Prosperity (AFP), the key organizers of the fake grassroots Tea Party movement.

David Koch told New York Magazine earlier this year, "I’ve never been to a tea-party event. No one representing the tea party has ever even approached me."

But the Guardian reports that footage has emerged showing David Koch at the podium during an AFP gala receiving direct and detailed reports from his astroturf AFP army on their efforts to organize tea parties around the nation.







Wow. Will they just stop the fucking charade already? It's pathetic.

People might respect the Teabaggers more if they'd just admit they're funded by billionaires and moved on. Why all the lies?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud [Re: jimbotron] * 1
    #13334967 - 10/14/10 09:06 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Wahhh... I don't understand this "tea party movement" therefore I am going to make a fool of myself posting irrelevant drivel pretending that the tea party represents something that it doesn't.


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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud [Re: jimbotron]
    #13334971 - 10/14/10 09:08 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

So you're saying that everyone in this video was lying.

Is that your argument? Just trying to figure out what you know and I don't.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud [Re: jimbotron]
    #13334974 - 10/14/10 09:08 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Are you saying it matters who funds a political advocacy group- that it affects the merits of their proposals?

All the teaparty crap seems to presume the groups and people are some monolithic entity, yet they never, never, back up this premise.

Jimbotron, you refer to the "teaparty" in the singular.  What is your basis for treating the group and its members as if it is a united entity?

Please also back up your allegation that the group is a fraud if your allegation is true.  Seems a pure adhominem.

It really does seem some people are incredulous at the thought that a decent portion of the country is just sick of being screwed with and forced to pay for all manner of idiocy, administered by an unnecessary centralized government aparatus.

Why is this so difficult to believe?

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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud [Re: johnm214]
    #13334996 - 10/14/10 09:16 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

For fuck's sake, the man said that he had never spoken to a Teabagger. Here he's speaking to dozens of them. There's really no disputing this.

So the man at the top is a liar. Okay, strike one.

The people here are telling him that they used his oil money to organize "grassroots" rallies. I don't know where you come from, but the way I learned it, if you want to have a grassroots rally you fund it with a fucking bake sale or something. Strike two.

And, of course, at the end of the video, they ask the people AT these rallies where the money is coming from, and they insist that there ain't no billionaire involved. They're either lying or they've been conned.

Strike three.

Whether people have organized into independent Tea Party cells is irrelevant of the fact that the big rallies, the ones that put them on the map, the ones that supposedly proved that zillions of people were spontaneously organizing on their own dime... were funded by two very rich men.

"Billionaire throws a rally, people show up" doesn't sound as inspiring as "thousands independently organize and pay for rally", does it? That's the point. Don't see why people bend over backwards to pretend otherwise.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud [Re: jimbotron]
    #13335025 - 10/14/10 09:26 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Why did you indicate you were replying to me?

You responded to nothing in my post challenging your position and did not seem to attempt to challenge anything I said either.

If your position is defensible, then defend it.

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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud [Re: jimbotron]
    #13335029 - 10/14/10 09:27 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Actually, maybe the problem here is very simple.

Whenever I see an organization with a name like "Americans for Prosperity" or "Citizens for Freedom" or "Mothers for Apple Pie" I immediately think BULLSHIT FRONT GROUP and anticipate a bunch of obvious lies.

I have never, ever, ever been failed by this line of thinking.

Am I the only person who's figured this out?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud [Re: jimbotron]
    #13335043 - 10/14/10 09:34 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Epic. Fucking epic.

Dude, have some dignity.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud [Re: johnm214]
    #13335058 - 10/14/10 09:42 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Are you saying it matters who funds a political advocacy group- that it affects the merits of their proposals?




Depends. Strictly speaking, I'd argue that it is more likely to affect the actual proposals they bring; they are likely to ignore meritorious proposals that may harm their bottom line. Do you seriously disagree with me here?

In the real world, of course, many of their proposals are vaguely or deceptively worded; remember the logging companies offering to remove "hazardous fuels" (aka trees) from our forests? If a fox lobbies for unguarded henhouses, how do YOU interpret it?

In a case like this, where you have an oil company masquerading as an anti-corporate populist movement, yes, I do believe it affects the merits of their proposals. It's like if, I dunno, a whaler dressed up as a hippie and began demanding a return to unrestricted whale hunting. I would probably suspect that something was amiss.

Quote:

All the teaparty crap seems to presume the groups and people are some monolithic entity, yet they never, never, back up this premise.

Jimbotron, you refer to the "teaparty" in the singular.  What is your basis for treating the group and its members as if it is a united entity?




Oh come on. Never ever?

Quote:

The common view that the Tea Party movement is a rebellious, libertarian threat not only to the Republican establishment but also to traditional Christian conservatives is upended by a new survey that shows a broad overlap between the religious right and voters who identify with the Tea Party.

For example, nearly half (47 percent) of Americans who consider themselves members of the Tea Party movement also consider themselves part of the "Christian conservative movement," and among the more than 8 in 10 Tea Partiers who identify as Christian, nearly 6 in 10 (57 percent) also consider themselves part of the Christian conservative movement.

The biennial American Values Survey, released in Washington on Tuesday, was conducted by the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI) and shows that two-thirds of Tea Partiers say abortion should be illegal in all or most cases, while 45 percent say there should be no legal recognition for same-sex relationships. That is hardly the profile of a libertarian fringe and more closely reflects the Republican base.

..

Compared to the general population, for example, Tea Partiers more likely to be non-Hispanic whites (80 percent vs. 69 percent of Americans overall), and they are far more likely to be Republicans (76 percent are Republicans or lean Republican) and are planning to support GOP candidates (8 in 10).




80% are white Republicans voting Republican. 'Nuff said.

Quote:

Please also back up your allegation that the group is a fraud if your allegation is true.  Seems a pure adhominem.




See previous post.

Quote:

It really does seem some people are incredulous at the thought that a decent portion of the country is just sick of being screwed with and forced to pay for all manner of idiocy, administered by an unnecessary centralized government aparatus.

Why is this so difficult to believe?




It's difficult to believe because "screwed with and forced to pay for all manner of idiocy, administered by an unnecessary centralized government aparatus" sounds a lot like THE BUSH YEARS.

And at this point you will invariably reply that you were the GOOD Republican, the one who complained the whole time. Blah blah blah. Every single fucking teabagger insists that they didn't approve of Bush, even though they voted for him twice. Every single one!

Bush left office with an approval of like 23%. Same number of people who call themselves teabaggers. Same number of people who say Obama's a muslim, a Kenyan, the antichrist. Same number of people who say the schools should teach Genesis instead of evolution. They're the same fucking people, they loved Bush, they hate Obama, they are the Republican base, and they have been since Ronald Reagan or Richard Nixon, depending on whether they're on a walker or in a wheelchair.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud [Re: jimbotron]
    #13335137 - 10/14/10 10:11 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I don't know anyone who calls him or herself a "teabagger".  That is a label that has been adopted by the intellectually bereft cowards on the left to in some way stigmatize people who disagree with their retarded socialist agenda rather than get slaughtered on the debate floor.  Weak sauce, pure and simple, from weak minds.

Take for instance this bit of buffoonish logic from the idiot left.  Since people who identify themselves as Tea Partiers almost exclusively support Republicans they are a creation of the Republican Party.  This is prima fasce absurd, not just due to the falsity of it (the Republican establishment is not real happy about them) but that the alternative condition required would be that they would have to support Democrats.  Democrats!  What mindless bullshit.  As for myself I would support Satan before a Democrat at this point.  Or a rock or a weasel or anything at all not associated with the Democrat Party.  Here's where the Dems lost any semblance of representing the American people.  They selected San Fran Nan (D. Berserkley) as Speaker, one of the slimiest most liberal politicians ever elected to public office.

Further evidence of a disconnection between the Tea Partiers and the Republican Party is their fairly successful campaign to eradicate the RINO moles within the party.  Just ask Mike Castle, the machine anointed nominee for Delaware.  Like me, they prefer the Satanic witch to a Dem or Demlite candidate.

Finally there is the entire bullshit that this is somehow topdown.  Sadly, Republican leaders found themselves incapable of leading.  That includes Koch, although I don't believe he is a Republican Party politician.  No, he and all the others are Johnny-come-latelies to the surge.  The fact that they got on the bus doesn't mean that they built or are driving it.  If anyone can lay claim to starting this it is Rick Santelli, who spoke truth and common sense very eloquently and forcefully. 

Your commie kleptocrat pals are going to get their asses kicked, jimbo.  Viciously.  Following the election I expect you and every other gyroscope to babble that since the Republicans didn't win every single election it is somehow a defeat.  At which I will LOL and work to further eliminate 2012 the rest of the commie scum that has infiltrated our government to the great detriment of the people.  Bwahahahahaha.  Loser.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud [Re: jimbotron]
    #13335188 - 10/14/10 10:30 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> So you're saying that everyone in this video was lying.

I didn't watch the video.

> Just trying to figure out what you know and I don't.

I know that the tea party is a movement, not a political party.  It is not a singular as you tried to make it out to be.  For the most part, tea party supporters are people that are pissed off at the spenders in congress.  They are demanding that congress stop the uncontrolled spending, and they are willing to vote in a satan worshiping wingbat to make their point.  There are no 'leaders' in the tea party, because the tea party is a movement, not a political party.  Literally, anybody can declare themselves to be part of the tea party... again, it is a movement, not an actual political party.  If this idea is too hard to grasp, ask yourself who led the hippy movement in the 60's?  Could a politician in the 60's not support the hippy movement, yet have never been to a love fest or spoken with a hippy leader?


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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud [Re: Seuss]
    #13336113 - 10/14/10 02:15 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I'll address those questions but I'd like you to address this one:

Why does the biggest financial backer of the Tea Party feel it's necessary to LIE about his involvement with the group? And yes, I'm using the L word. He said quite specifically and categorically:

Quote:

"I’ve never been to a tea-party event. No one representing the tea party has ever even approached me."




There he is, on video, at a Tea Party event, with Tea Party organizers lining up to tell him how many rallies they held using his money. If you won't watch the video, just take my word for it -- that's what it is. Now re-read the quote.

He lied. Lied through his teeth. Admit it.

Okay. Now about why this matters. I don't think the Tea Party movement can be so easily separated from this man, and I'll illustrate it with a simple question:

When did you first hear about the Tea Party? When did anyone hear about it? When did, as you tell it, millions of Americans spontaneously decide to organize into independent groups that all had the same name?

Rick Santelli ranting on a shitty cable network? Yeah right. It was when these huge rallies were held all over the country -- and we were told that these rallies were conceptualized and funded by concerned grandmas, kids, Democrats and Republicans from all walks of life. In actuality, of course, the whole show was put on by David Koch's AFP and Dick Armey's FreedomWorks (Dick Armey, likewise, claims that his group has no affiliation with the Tea Party, and that they just happen to attend his rallies.)

Two corporate Republican front groups. Don't believe me?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreedomWorks

Quote:

FreedomWorks and Americans for Prosperity both originated from a campaign called Citizens for a Sound Economy, which split in two in 2004. CSE was set up by businessman David Koch (Koch Industries), who has also promoted libertarian think tanks (Cato Institute and Reason Foundation).[2] Citizens for a Sound Economy (grassroots machine) merged with Empower America (policy expertise) in 2004 and was renamed FreedomWorks, with Dick Armey, Jack Kemp and C. Boyden Gray serving as co-chairmen, Bill Bennett focusing on school choice as a Senior Fellow, and Matt Kibbe as President and CEO.




Citizens for a Sound Economy. Get the "Mothers for Apple Pie" joke yet? Notice how all the people in charge are Republican former congressmen and/or operatives, and it's all from the guy who writes allowance checks to the useless right-wing think tanks (a.k.a. "wingnut welfare")?

Face it. This "independent" movement was started by Republicans, it consists of Republicans, it supports Republicans. The Tea Party is the Republican base, it's just been given a new name by a billionaire oilman. They support the same policies, and they're about to go vote for the same Republicans.

And if you disagree with that, explain why they're going to re-elect David Vitter.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud [Re: jimbotron]
    #13336271 - 10/14/10 03:00 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


It's difficult to believe because "screwed with and forced to pay for all manner of idiocy, administered by an unnecessary centralized government aparatus" sounds a lot like THE BUSH YEARS.

And at this point you will invariably reply that you were the GOOD Republican, the one who complained the whole time. Blah blah blah. Every single fucking teabagger insists that they didn't approve of Bush, even though they voted for him twice. Every single one!




What the fuck are you talking about?  I didn't vote for Bush and I'm not a Republican.


Even if I was, so what?  Your contentions are based on nonsense you're making up as you go along that wouldn't have any relevance even if it was true (what if I did vote for Bush, what the hell does that have to do with anything?)


You continue the ad hominems with no explanation what this has to do with the merits of the tea party issues.

Respond to the criticisms offered.  You've not done so except to invent nonsense of no relevance and claim somehow that some percentage of whatever you define tea partyers to be are republicans and that this makes the movement a monolithic entity. 

Quote:

In a case like this, where you have an oil company masquerading as an anti-corporate populist movement, yes, I do believe it affects the merits of their proposals. It's like if, I dunno, a whaler dressed up as a hippie and began demanding a return to unrestricted whale hunting. I would probably suspect that something was amiss.




Why?  You've just made another bare assertion, I understand you think this has some relevance to the tea partyers' positions, but you've not said why.

I don't have any idea why a whaler dressed as a hippie demanding whaling and your perception of that has anything to do with this.

These are ad hominems, essentially, and clearly irrelevant to the merits of the positions.  Defend the relevance and respond to the criticism.

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Re: The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud [Re: johnm214]
    #13336533 - 10/14/10 04:09 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Copy and pasting from this thread:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13331972

Shins said:
Quote:

Recently i have been realizing that Ron Paul could likely be controlled opposition.

"They" like to play both sides of the dialectic,  and Ron Paul seems almost too good to be true.


His wife is also an Eastern star free mason,  and his kids are in rainbow girls - a masonic organization.

Is Ron Paul an undisclosed free mason playing the good guy?




***

Jacktharipper said:
Quote:

I've read such things too, and his frequent appearances on Alex Jones may suggest this further (if indeed Jones is a similar fake "guy on our side")








***

Shins said:
Quote:

He also tends to get a lot of mainstream media attention which adds to the suspicion.




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OfflineAmericanPsycho
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Re: The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud [Re: jimbotron]
    #13336550 - 10/14/10 04:13 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said:
Why all the lies?




I think this is the important question.  Because they're all corrupted compulsive liars?


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InvisibleShins
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Re: The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud [Re: jimbotron]
    #13336556 - 10/14/10 04:15 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

11. In the third rank we shall set up our own, to all appearance, opposition, which, in at least one of its organs, will present what looks like the very antipodes to us. Our real opponents at heart will accept this simulated opposition as their own and will show us their cards.




Quote:

14. THESE ATTACKS UPON US WILL ALSO SERVE ANOTHER PURPOSE, NAMELY, THAT OUR SUBJECTS WILL BE CONVINCED TO THE EXISTENCE OF FULL FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND SO GIVE OUR AGENTS AN OCCASION TO AFFIRM THAT ALL ORGANS WHICH OPPOSE US ARE EMPTY BABBLERS






Protocols of the Learned Elders Of Zion - XII - Control of the press

Whether or not the protocols are a fake (debatable) It seems uncannily accurate.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud [Re: AmericanPsycho]
    #13336564 - 10/14/10 04:18 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Who is "they"?  Do you mean me?  Because if so you can kiss my ass.


I never heard of Koch until a few weeks ago and I don't give two shits about him.  He doesn't speak for me and he hasn't sent me one shiny dime.

Keep twirling, gyroscopes.  It is the people who say your ideas suck.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13336570 - 10/14/10 04:20 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

By "They" i mean the shadowy ruling elite.


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OfflineAmericanPsycho
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Re: The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud [Re: Shins]
    #13336656 - 10/14/10 04:47 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

11. Our real opponents at heart will accept this simulated opposition as their own and will show us their cards.








Nope.  And are you saying they plan to use us for our organs? LOL


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InvisibleShins
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Re: The Tea Party: Now Officially a Fraud [Re: AmericanPsycho]
    #13336672 - 10/14/10 04:53 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

AmericanPsycho said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

11. Our real opponents at heart will accept this simulated opposition as their own and will show us their cards.








Nope.  And are you saying they plan to use us for our organs? LOL




I have no idea what you're talking about :lol:


If you mean harvest our energy like in the matrix - yeah I'd say something like that,  but in the metaphorical sense.


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