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frith
God
Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 7,512
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: DieCommie]
#13327914 - 10/12/10 09:11 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
Chespirito said: What schools have you enrolled in? Ive never been in a university science class that was interested in me passing a test. Even including the bullshit intro to physics courses the first year
Same here. Ive had concepts and understanding hammered into me, even when I just want information on how to pass the test!
i have a computer background so it may be different for other fields.
if you are going for a networking course chances are you will be taught using Cisco.. rarely is it something else used like Vyatta or Nortel or whatever..
on the system administration side, youre really only going to get Microsoft despite the fact that Linux runs around 60% of the web pages out there or that most companies with a graphic arts department or advertising division is running OSX.
youre taught how to blend into a beige, boring, corporate landscape and not how to come up with an original idea..
Gates, Jobs, Ellison, Zuckerberg.. they are all college dropouts.
and of course there are exceptions to every rule..
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Arden
לנשום
Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 7,666
Loc: Α & Ω
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: frith]
#13327954 - 10/12/10 09:17 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
youre taught how to blend into a beige, boring, corporate landscape and not how to come up with an original idea..
By its very nature, students with novel ideas may be ignored and rendered sub-par over those whose ideas correspond well with given norms, especially if they resonate with the principles of the instructor.
Challenges or dismissals are taken personally and usually met with conflict. This is good, since science should be an open source and competitive enterprise, but when dealing with social institutions, those in power, coincidentally, are the ones who have more capabilities to defend and project their ideas--suggesting information isn't always processed in an un-biased, "nothing but the facts, ma'am" sterile environment. There is always power play and social roles that determine what gets added to the card stack.
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frith
God
Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 7,512
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: Arden] 1
#13328032 - 10/12/10 09:29 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Arden said:
Quote:
youre taught how to blend into a beige, boring, corporate landscape and not how to come up with an original idea..
By its very nature, students with novel ideas may be ignored and rendered sub-par over those whose ideas correspond well with given norms, especially if they resonate with the principles of the instructor.
Challenges or dismissals are taken personally and usually met with conflict. This is good, since science should be an open source and competitive enterprise, but when dealing with social institutions, those in power, coincidentally, are the ones who have more capabilities to defend and project their ideas--suggesting information isn't always processed in an un-biased, "nothing but the facts, ma'am" sterile environment. There is always power play and social roles that determine what gets added to the card stack.
agreed.
i have a real problem with only learning one way of doing something.. if the thing being taught doesnt fit with a particular situation then you might not have the knowledge of other systems to successfully implement a different solution. i have to teach myself a lot of information because a school that charges thousands of dollars a year either wont or doesnt have the ability to teach students about them.
even at the basic levels.. students arent taught word processing.. they are taught Microsoft Word. theyre not taught video editing.. theyre taught Final Cut Pro. those distinctions are subtle but its a HUGE part about education as a concept.
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Arden
לנשום
Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 7,666
Loc: Α & Ω
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: frith]
#13328708 - 10/12/10 11:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
even at the basic levels.. students arent taught word processing.. they are taught Microsoft Word. theyre not taught video editing.. theyre taught Final Cut Pro. those distinctions are subtle but its a HUGE part about education as a concept.
Good point.
J. Krishnamurti spoke a lot about the importance of teaching our children how to think more for themselves and to interact with the world without overly relying on the programs and constructs that we force onto them. His philosophy on education in general is one that I admire.
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Chespirito
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 3,259
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: frith]
#13330161 - 10/13/10 10:22 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
frith said:
Gates, Jobs, Ellison, Zuckerberg.. they are all college dropouts.
The people you are referring to genuinely did not need a college degree. Zuckerberg copied Facebook and could already program adequately enough. Jobs has good business sense and piggy backed on Wozniaks genius. Gates is a good businessman, never known for his programming ability.
The people I look up to are Holonyak, the guys that started Intel (Moore and Noyce), Kilby, the Google guys, etc... I can appreciate Gates being good at reading the market correctly, or Zuckerberg's website winning out over the almost identical one started by a guy at Columbia, but it is hardly something I aspire to.
Your characterization of universities is simply false. Ive never met a university where PhD's are offered science professor that gave a damn about teaching to a test
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badchad
Mad Scientist
Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,377
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: Chespirito]
#13330283 - 10/13/10 10:49 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think it's also worth mentioning that undergraduate studies generally focus on the basics and fundamentals of a particular subject.
It's like a pyramid. You need to get a solid base before moving to the pinnacle. That "base" is an undergrad degree.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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frith
God
Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 7,512
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: Chespirito]
#13330300 - 10/13/10 10:54 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chespirito said: Your characterization of universities is simply false. Ive never met a university where PhD's are offered science professor that gave a damn about teaching to a test
again, i come from a technical background where certification exams are a common part of the industry.
a networking course will absolutely teach for CCNA/CCNP.
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Chespirito
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 3,259
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: frith] 1
#13330467 - 10/13/10 11:37 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Alright well I just think that if you are enrolled in a course whose stated goal is to teach to a certification exam, it's somewhat hard to fault it for that. I know CS majors who took various networking CS courses who would be totally oblivious of that exam.
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever
Registered: 03/03/06
Posts: 33,222
Loc: the city of dis
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: Arden] 1
#13330510 - 10/13/10 11:45 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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i have to give the professor more than the benefit of the doubt here, and from the story he seemed to handle the matter rather professionally.
prof is teaching a hard science class, and has a ton of info to get to his students (IME time is crucial in the hard sciences and pre-med classes, and lecture etc. really is planned out to the minute--much more so than in my humanities)
student makes an accurate, but tangential point.
prof allows student to make point, does not shut him down.
prof returns to class material
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morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,400
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 22 hours, 55 minutes
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: Taco Chef]
#13330609 - 10/13/10 12:12 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
novumorganum said: i have to give the professor more than the benefit of the doubt here, and from the story he seemed to handle the matter rather professionally.
prof is teaching a hard science class, and has a ton of info to get to his students (IME time is crucial in the hard sciences and pre-med classes, and lecture etc. really is planned out to the minute--much more so than in my humanities)
student makes an accurate, but tangential point.
prof allows student to make point, does not shut him down.
prof returns to class material
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: morrowasted]
#13330857 - 10/13/10 01:01 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Arden said:
The moral: This is like studying asprin (acetylsalicylic acid), without even a brief realization that salicylic acid is derived from the bark of the willow tree.
Quote:
salicylic acid, also called ortho-hydroxybenzoic acid, Salicylic acid occurs naturally in small amounts in plants of the genus Spiraea. [Credit: E.R. Degginger]a white, crystalline solid that is used chiefly in the preparation of aspirin and other pharmaceutical products. The free acid occurs naturally in small amounts in many plants, particularly the various species of Spiraea. The methyl ester also occurs widely in nature; it is the chief constituent of oil of wintergreen. Salicylic acid was first prepared by the Italian chemist Raffaele Piria in 1838 from salicylaldehyde. In 1860 the German chemists Hermann Kolbe and Eduard Lautemann discovered a synthesis based on phenol and carbon dioxide. Today the compound is made from dry sodium ... (100 of 277 words)
It is found in quite a few plants and is also synthesized, which accounts for the bulk of it's industrial production today. Although it can be extracted from willow bark that is not where we get it from.
I think novum is probably right. With the added observation that the student is a showoff. I hated blowholes like that in college. They wasted my time and money and everybody else's with their need to call attention to themselves.
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AntiEverything
im not a doctor
Registered: 07/07/06
Posts: 6,003
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: Arden]
#13330901 - 10/13/10 01:09 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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you sound arrogant
edit: was refering to the OP
-------------------- You are at once both the quiet and the confusion of my heart. -Franz Kafka
Edited by AntiEverything (10/13/10 06:40 PM)
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: AntiEverything]
#13330919 - 10/13/10 01:12 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Funny, thats what the original post made me think.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: AntiEverything]
#13330924 - 10/13/10 01:14 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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I am. Now. Deservedly so. But I wasn't when I was in college, which is what the OP seems to be.
I was taking a poli sci 101 class and on the first day some similarly pompous student inquired of the professor, "will we be penalized if our political beliefs don't agree with yours?" The professor responded that there was no way any of our political beliefs would agree with his. Kindly left unsaid was that we were all ignorant. The professor was, of course, 100% correct. I loved it.
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Arden
לנשום
Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 7,666
Loc: Α & Ω
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: zappaisgod]
#13331039 - 10/13/10 01:33 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
I think novum is probably right. With the added observation that the student is a showoff. I hated blowholes like that in college. They wasted my time and money and everybody else's with their need to call attention to themselves.
Again, this isn't college. I'm embedded in grants and internships. I'm not sitting in a fucking 101 class.
If you're learning, how is new information--apparently the case here--a waste of time or money? Oh, that's right, time and money is for the degree not the experience, I forgot. Whether 2+2 comes from an old guy at the front of the room, or little Susan who sits behind you, knowledge is knowledge.
Quote:
you sound arrogant
Quote:
Funny, thats what the original post made me think.
"Hip hip hooray!" for those who managed to read between the lines. Not only did I speak against one-upmanship in this thread, but it was in my closing remarks in the first thread. To beat a dead horse, the point is not a competition of egos or dominant peacocking (i.e. "arrogance"). Instead it's to highlight how the traditional class room structure creates boundaries, and indirectly, to point out the blind, unquestioned authority that is placed in higher education.
Regarding "arrogance":
Tall poppy syndrome (TPS) is a pejorative term used in the UK, Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand to describe a social phenomenon in which people of genuine merit are resented, attacked, cut down, or criticised because their talents or achievements elevate them above or distinguish them from their peers.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: Arden]
#13331320 - 10/13/10 02:32 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Arden said:
Quote:
I think novum is probably right. With the added observation that the student is a showoff. I hated blowholes like that in college. They wasted my time and money and everybody else's with their need to call attention to themselves.
Again, this isn't college. I'm embedded in grants and internships. I'm not sitting in a fucking 101 class.
So what? People paid money to be there and you wasted their time with a bunch of pointless bullshit. You called him a professor. I don't give a shit what level class you were in. You also blew total bullshit about salicylic acid. Who gives a fuck?Quote:
If you're learning, how is new information--apparently the case here--a waste of time or money? Oh, that's right, time and money is for the degree not the experience, I forgot. Whether 2+2 comes from an old guy at the front of the room, or little Susan who sits behind you, knowledge is knowledge.
So you think you should impose your idea on what they should be learning on them when they paid for something else? Which leads to something that somebody else said about me:Quote:
Quote:
you sound arrogant
Yes, you do. Undeservedly so.Quote:
Quote:
Funny, thats what the original post made me think.
"Hip hip hooray!" for those who managed to read between the lines. Not only did I speak against one-upmanship in this thread, but it was in my closing remarks in the first thread. To beat a dead horse, the point is not a competition of egos or dominant peacocking (i.e. "arrogance"). Instead it's to highlight how the traditional class room structure creates boundaries, and indirectly, to point out the blind, unquestioned authority that is placed in higher education.
I don't care what you posted in some other thread and I don't care what you think about other people's choices. I can assure that not one single person there paid a dime to hear you add an off topic remark about the historical uses of hallucinogenic mushrooms. Nor do I think they "smirked and giggled" because you said "mushrooms". Some people have trouble reading social affect. You may well be one.Quote:
Regarding "arrogance":
Tall poppy syndrome (TPS) is a pejorative term used in the UK, Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand to describe a social phenomenon in which people of genuine merit are resented, attacked, cut down, or criticised because their talents or achievements elevate them above or distinguish them from their peers.
I don't think that someone whose apparent signature achievement is twitting professors with irrelevant bullshit should be worried that they are a victim of tall poppy syndrome.
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imagine
Psychic
Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 758
Loc: CA
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: zappaisgod]
#13331662 - 10/13/10 03:45 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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are you working on your BA? or MA concentrated in bio behavior?
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twighead
mͯó
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: Arden]
#13331677 - 10/13/10 03:49 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Almost all professors I've had except for the real awesome down to earth (whatever that means) ones have gotten defensive if anyone as so much moved to correct them. We were discussing a piece of music and my professor said that the 6/8 time signature means 6 eighth notes per measure which technically it is added up.... but that's not really what it means - its 2 groupings of 3 eighth notes and the dotted quarter note gets the beat foo - thangs be compound.
Needless to say he pretty much just wrote me off as wrong without even considering it.
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Rocker232
Stranger
Registered: 10/17/08
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: Synocybin]
#13331960 - 10/13/10 04:46 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Synocybin said:
I love stopping teachers in their tracks when they teach something that I feel I know a bit more about
I have a class called metascience and there is vast amounts of information that I know more about than the teacher, but its pointless. I called him out once and he just brushed it off so I just zone out and ace the tests now.
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With Allure I Look to the Sky With Awakened Eyes
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fazdazzle
Wanderer
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Re: "Gotcha again, professor." Round 2. [Re: Rocker232]
#13332173 - 10/13/10 05:27 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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You're point is somewhat true, but idealistic, Arden.
All of my upper class professors would consider what anyone has to say before brushing them aside, unless it's obviously wrong, but they will point out why it's wrong...and as far as putting more energy into comments that don't direct relate to the topic at hand, IME it depends on the personality of the professor. What novum said about time constraints in hard sciences is true, but even so, in my biochem class, my prof goes off topic occasionally and is ok with off topic questions from students. And come to think of it, this is in regard to questions; if someone made a statement about something off topic, my biochem prof would probably shrug and say, "...And that could be true," or whatever, and then continue lecture.
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