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 OctoberLeigh
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 Schizophrenic or Shamanic? 
#13318510 - 10/10/10 10:12 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ok shroomery. I'm curious to hear how you all feel about what McKenna is saying in this vid. How many of you think that many people who are labeled as being "mentally ill" are actually just misunderstood? Is it possible that somewhere locked away in an institution, there is a person who's mind may be capable of going farther than most and rather than learn from them, society chose to separate them from the rest of the world and fear their differences instead of trying to understand?
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nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard
Registered: 11/07/03
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I didn't watch the video, but I agree that those who don't agree with the "norm" of society are often punished for it.
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"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."
John C. Lily
  
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 collie man
Jai guru deva om
Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 3,665
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99% of humanity sucks.
I have had really mind blowing conversations with people "suffering" from schizophrenia.
How can we classify something we know so little about?
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morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
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I got diagnosed with schizophrenia once following a heavy meth/acid/shroom binge. 
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OctoberLeigh
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Re: Schizophrenic or Shamanic? [Re: morrowasted]
#13318599 - 10/10/10 10:43 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
collie man said:
I have had really mind blowing conversations with people "suffering" from schizophrenia.
So have I and it really makes me wonder.
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke
Registered: 04/14/09
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i've heard this speech before, and imo mckenna hasn't spent enough time around schizophrenics
i agree with his basic concept about being outside the norm, but some people are legitimately off their rocker and almost the antithesis of shamanic in a way
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twighead
mͯó
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Re: Schizophrenic or Shamanic? [Re: the bizzle]
#13318648 - 10/10/10 10:59 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ja... Schizophrenia is just a broad encompassing term for dozens if not hundreds or thousands of different unique mental states.
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OctoberLeigh
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Re: Schizophrenic or Shamanic? [Re: the bizzle]
#13318728 - 10/10/10 11:18 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
the bizzle said:
i've heard this speech before, and imo mckenna hasn't spent enough time around schizophrenics
i agree with his basic concept about being outside the norm, but some people are legitimately off their rocker and almost the antithesis of shamanic in a way
Some people are legitimately off their rocker for sure but all of them? I just can't buy it. Sometimes I wonder if I were to be diagnosed where might I rank? I know I'm not the same as everyone else but I'm definitely not sick. If I had a dollar for every time a person misjudged me based on what they saw on the outside alone I could retire quite young. It's interesting to me how he talks about scarification and stuff like that being "a return to what is felt by the body." I'm covered in tattoos from head to toe and have more than a few piercings as well. I always get a kick out of it when people I know share their first impression they got with me. They say things like "I never expected you to be so smart" or my other favorite is "I can't believe what a nice person you are. You have such a big heart" If appearance alone can cause us to misjudge what about what goes on inside. If that doesn't look the same as the rest of the world how much more harsh can the judgment be in that case?
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Aidsdragon
Derps for Glory
Registered: 07/23/10
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I could see the whole shaman thing with someone thats schizo but probably like a 6 out of 10 on that schitzo spectrum or lower like http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/schizoid-personality-disorder/DS00865 or http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/schizotypal-personality-disorder/DS00830. Really alot of those personality disorders are probably disorders only in the context of the worker bee society especially adhd, schizotypal, and schizoid ones.
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Meths a marathon, not a sprint and Langer knows it.
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circularvortex
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I'll paraphrase from a Castaneda book:
Those that can travel between worlds at will are powerful warriors. Those that lose control and spend all their time in another world are simply mad.
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, federal, or fashion police laws. All posts are works of fiction.
For well you know that its a fool who plays it cool
By making his world a little colder.
Under closer inspection I realised it was a funky ball of tits from outer space.
  
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nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard
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Quote:
circularvortex said:
I'll paraphrase from a Castaneda book:
Those that can travel between worlds at will are powerful warriors. Those that lose control and spend all their time in another world are simply mad.
I think that's a good way to put it
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"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."
John C. Lily
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propensity
۞̷ ̶۞̷ ̶
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Quote:
circularvortex said:
I'll paraphrase from a Castaneda book:
Those that can travel between worlds at will are powerful warriors. Those that lose control and spend all their time in another world are simply mad.
Castaneda is probably my favorite author.
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۞̷̛̗̗͉͇̰̅͒ͯͩ̆ͯ̑͘ ̶̖̭ͧ͛ͬ͑ͣͦ̍ͧ͐͟͢ www.cactophage.com ۞̷̛̗̗͉͇̰̅͒ͯͩ̆ͯ̑͘ ̶̖̭ͧ͛ͬ͑ͣͦ̍ͧ͐͟͢
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Arden
לנשום
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Quote:
How many of you think that many people who are labeled as being "mentally ill" are actually just misunderstood?
There is no such thing. 'Mental illness' is an ever-changing, open system of evaluation (usually resulting in isolation) for states of being that are incompatible with society and individuals.
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke
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Quote:
OctoberLeigh said:
Quote:
the bizzle said:
i've heard this speech before, and imo mckenna hasn't spent enough time around schizophrenics
i agree with his basic concept about being outside the norm, but some people are legitimately off their rocker and almost the antithesis of shamanic in a way
Some people are legitimately off their rocker for sure but all of them? I just can't buy it. Sometimes I wonder if I were to be diagnosed where might I rank? I know I'm not the same as everyone else but I'm definitely not sick. If I had a dollar for every time a person misjudged me based on what they saw on the outside alone I could retire quite young. It's interesting to me how he talks about scarification and stuff like that being "a return to what is felt by the body." I'm covered in tattoos from head to toe and have more than a few piercings as well. I always get a kick out of it when people I know share their first impression they got with me. They say things like "I never expected you to be so smart" or my other favorite is "I can't believe what a nice person you are. You have such a big heart" If appearance alone can cause us to misjudge what about what goes on inside. If that doesn't look the same as the rest of the world how much more harsh can the judgment be in that case?
definitely not all of them. If you took a psychological placement test, and answered "yes" to "have you ever had thoughts that seemed magical in nature?" or something like that, you would be classified as something, when really that is not at all an indicator of any type of illness
however, I used to feel that there was no such thing as mental illness, only a different type of perception...
until I spent enough time around schizophrenics. Psychosis is no joke. I don't understand it, but I can tell you for absolute certain that these people can become a major danger to themselves, to say the very least. I just don't have the words. You have to see it for yourself that yes, mental illness is a real thing
but october, I think your post has more to do with appearances and judgmental people.
Sure, there are people who are improperly viewed as crazy...but please do not misjudge a psychotic person as a shaman
...for one, shamans aren't so paranoid that they check 12 inch cupboards for murderers,
and a person in a psychotic episode seems to be extreeeeemely indulgent in their self (their fears, god-complex, etc), which is the antithesis of shamanic
more importantly, don't think that a psychotic person is just has an alternative perception. They do, but one that can be very very self-destructive. I have always been against schiz meds -- they have terrible side effects and I feel we simply don't truly understand schizophrenia --- but let me tell you, as much as I want perception to be free, and as fucked up as I think the meds can be, it beats the alternatives I have witnessed.
Quote:
circularvortex said:
I'll paraphrase from a Castaneda book:
Those that can travel between worlds at will are powerful warriors. Those that lose control and spend all their time in another world are simply mad.
I think the thing of key importance for a schizophrenic, or any other person, is to be able to be aware of what "thoughts" and feelings are being thrown at them from their schizophrenic side, and to know how to disregard/not indulge in them.
the problem is that some of the things schizophrenic people experience are so intense or dominating, that they get lost in taking it too seriously
Believe me, I have considered that possibly the voices and such are real, but I've also witnessed enough to know that at least sometimes they could not possibly be real, such as an air conditioner vent saying "I'm going to kill you" and such (not even one of the better examples I've witnessed).
I think this castaneda quote is accurate. Think of all the times you have ever been unjustly paranoid, or insecure, or whatever. The voice in your head was telling you what is what, you listened to it and it was wrong, and somehow built around some inner part of your self...
the only time I've ever hallucinated voices while not on drugs was in the most stressed state I have ever been. I heard my dad yelling in a monstrous voice, but I knew it wasn't real. While tripping, I've heard people I know talking through the sounds coming from doors or guitars, etc, but I was able to know that it was a product of my own personality. I think schizophrenics, some much much more than others, lack the rational ability to discern that the experience is a product of something not being right with their mind and/or body. Also, whatever it is that they experience is probably more intense and harder to deal with...whatever it is, it is not fully understood yet, but it is not quite shamanic
i have also considered that maybe some of these people really are plagued by malicious entities...which I can't truly say is true or untrue...but note that I said malicious, which does mean that they are dealing with some serious problems one way or the other...meaning that in one way or another they certainly have some sort of illness
misunderstood, yes... misdiagnosed, perhaps...but not necessarily misdiagnosed as being a danger to themselves, if they clearly are.
anyways my point being that McKenna's attitude about it is naive. His concept might ring true for a small fraction, and for that fraction I agree with what he is saying, but for the most part his view is naive. He hasn't witnessed enough psychosis at the time of saying this
on a slightly different topic, I'd love to hear from some schizophrenic people that have learned how to deal with their condition themselves, and what they have to say about it
p.s. also important to note that "schizophrenia" is a term used to describe many varied conditions (similar enough, but also quite varied)
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OctoberLeigh
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Re: Schizophrenic or Shamanic? [Re: the bizzle] 1
#13320094 - 10/11/10 10:34 AM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think the thing of key importance for a schizophrenic, or any other person, is to be able to be aware of what "thoughts" and feelings are being thrown at them from their schizophrenic side, and to know how to disregard/not indulge in them.
the problem is that some of the things schizophrenic people experience are so intense or dominating, that they get lost in taking it too seriously
)
That Castaneda quote is great. Also I completely agree with what your saying about people who can't tell what's being thrown at them from their schizophrenic side. If those feelings are way too intense for the individual who is experiencing them to separate from reality then that's a scary thought.
I wonder how it starts. When these people were young kids was it the same for them but maybe not as intense? If so would that be the best time and perhaps the only small window available to correct the problem? There is no way to make the voices stop but do you think it is possible for the person who's hearing those voices to be taught to understand where they are coming from. Something must feel slightly different from reality. If that difference is understood at the early stages do you think it could be a useful tool used by the schizophrenic to distinguish the feeling from reality and not act on it?
Thankfully I am not afflicted with this problem and I don't hear voices but when I trip I experience heavy hallucinations both auditory and visual. This happens almost every time for me and I'm never afraid. Something feels different about it and no matter how vivid and real it may seem, I always know where it's coming from.
Because I have no fear of it I find ways to tune into it as much as I can because there is always a point to what I see and hear in that altered state of consciousness. I feel like it's a gift from another place and it always teaches me something.
Do you think the average, not too far gone schizophrenic could be taught to do the same if the problem is intercepted at the right moment before things get out of hand? Do you think some of these people have the ability to tap into the psychedelic realm without a substance being used to induce this state of mind? If so, do you think they have a useful gift rather than an illness?
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke
Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
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I don't have the answers to those questions but I really enjoyed your post 
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OctoberLeigh
Stranger
Registered: 09/30/10
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Re: Schizophrenic or Shamanic? [Re: the bizzle]
#13320813 - 10/11/10 01:17 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thank you I enjoyed your response 
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lechuck
hash smoker
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1,124
Loc: mediterranean sea
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I had a Schizophrenic episode a few years ago, worse times in my life, feeling someone was chasing me and wanted to kill me for months.
now I am fine, 100% over it.
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OctoberLeigh
Stranger
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Posts: 764
Loc: new york
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
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Re: Schizophrenic or Shamanic? [Re: lechuck]
#13320938 - 10/11/10 01:43 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Wow...I'm happy to hear your ok now. Do you mind me asking what triggered it?
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lechuck
hash smoker
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1,124
Loc: mediterranean sea
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
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a very bad woman, her criminal friends, a lot of amphetamines.
I drooped like 20 pounds.
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