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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: My all time favorite proof of the impossibility of 'GOD' as an All-Powerfull Bieng. [Re: Boba JFET]
    #13304335 - 10/07/10 02:41 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Boba JFET said:
To get back to the OP, there is a paradox though because for god to be omnipotent, god has to be able to desire (assuming the kind of omnipotence that is contained by logic, which is also paradoxical). If god cannot desire, that is something god cannot do and that is contrary to god's omnipotence. But, as mentioned, for god to desire means that there is something god wants and does not have. Which is also contrary to god's omnipotence.

The solution in which god creates and can manipulate logic itself (and morals) pretty much eradicates any question about what god can or cannot do or be, but also renders discussion largely irrelevant, because we could not hope to understand anything about that sort of god.





:congrats:

Well put, I completly agree - thats why omnipotence is bunk, mute, useless, let alone the religious one with loads of preferences, needs, etc...


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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: My all time favorite proof of the impossibility of 'GOD' as an All-Powerfull Bieng. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #13304398 - 10/07/10 02:55 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
So what if rather than "doing" creation, God is creation? And all God is doing, is being. Infinite things can be created just by God existing, and no desire to do anything is needed.




Sure, but then again, what if god is just the universe...I mean if GOD has no intention, no doing, then creation, is not at all creation but rather a system, much like Nature. So you could just as easily say that GOD is Nature and nature is god - but more importatnly that god has no preference, no will, no intentions, just as nature exists chaotically and spontanously, so do gods intentions.




Is this your experience of the world? Random and chaotic?
Every religion I know of describes a system.

Religions are what deal with God as a concept. They also deal with God as having a set of rules/laws/codes to follow, much like a system in science. Do these rules hold up for creation? How do you know?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (10/07/10 03:03 PM)

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: My all time favorite proof of the impossibility of 'GOD' as an All-Powerfull Bieng. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #13304415 - 10/07/10 03:00 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

To get back to the OP, there is a paradox though because for god to be omnipotent, god has to be able to desire (assuming the kind of omnipotence that is contained by logic, which is also paradoxical). If god cannot desire, that is something god cannot do and that is contrary to god's omnipotence. But, as mentioned, for god to desire means that there is something god wants and does not have. Which is also contrary to god's omnipotence.





But since God is omni-potent he can simultaneously exist in two minds at once. One mind is experiencing desire and the second mind has conquered all desire.


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: My all time favorite proof of the impossibility of 'GOD' as an All-Powerfull Bieng. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #13304481 - 10/07/10 03:18 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Quote:

learningtofly said:
Could it be the case that God created all things simultaneously?

After all, time is not real.




Sure - but no, because 'god' would have nothing to motivate him to do so, as he compleltly self-sufficient and needs to create nothing, to be satisfied, as he already HAS it all, achieved through his ALL powerfull abilities.



how do you do something by not doing it?

what you're saying doesn't make sense


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: My all time favorite proof of the impossibility of 'GOD' as an All-Powerfull Bieng. [Re: soldatheero]
    #13306165 - 10/07/10 10:02 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Quote:

To get back to the OP, there is a paradox though because for god to be omnipotent, god has to be able to desire (assuming the kind of omnipotence that is contained by logic, which is also paradoxical). If god cannot desire, that is something god cannot do and that is contrary to god's omnipotence. But, as mentioned, for god to desire means that there is something god wants and does not have. Which is also contrary to god's omnipotence.





But since God is omni-potent he can simultaneously exist in two minds at once. One mind is experiencing desire and the second mind has conquered all desire.





But since he is omnipotent he can be in both those minds and be in NONE at the same time, as he can do the impossible!!!!

This argument is redundant, I have no clue how the fuck it makes sense to you.


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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: My all time favorite proof of the impossibility of 'GOD' as an All-Powerfull Bieng. [Re: learningtofly]
    #13306182 - 10/07/10 10:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Quote:

learningtofly said:
Could it be the case that God created all things simultaneously?

After all, time is not real.




Sure - but no, because 'god' would have nothing to motivate him to do so, as he compleltly self-sufficient and needs to create nothing, to be satisfied, as he already HAS it all, achieved through his ALL powerfull abilities.



how do you do something by not doing it?

what you're saying doesn't make sense





Well thats ironically what I am arguing for, that it makes no sense to say that god is omnipotent. Its impossible for something to be omnipotent and still have a will - it could be that nature exists as omnipotent, or that the universe exists as omnipotent, this could make sense, but anything with a desire and intent, fails the omnipotence requirments.


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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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Offlinetotallymyhat
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Re: My all time favorite proof of the impossibility of 'GOD' as an All-Powerfull Bieng. [Re: soldatheero] * 1
    #13307149 - 10/08/10 02:47 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Giving up materialism is necessary to understand how God can actually be everything, including you (of course).

Quote:

It's a rational attempt to explain the mind-body problem



Which it completely fails at doing.




I get that you have a different take on God and the Universe, but I'm not getting your argument. Mainly because it's not an argument. If you don't mind, what do you understand materialism to be, and why is it necessary to abandon in order to understand God? Also, how does it, as you put, completely fail? What, if any, rational alternatives to materialism do you propose?


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"When we are dead seek not our tomb in the earth, but find it in the hearts of men."  -Rumi

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: My all time favorite proof of the impossibility of 'GOD' as an All-Powerfull Bieng. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #13307518 - 10/08/10 07:04 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I really like this idea.

It obviously has the problem of proving that an omnipotent being cannot desire to create something, though at first blush this makes a lot of sense and is quite satisfying.  I just don't know how much we can infer about the nature of an omnipotent being...

I've never heard an argument like this before, so props for the originality :thumbup:


Quote:

totallymyhat said:
Quote:

soldatheero said:
Giving up materialism is necessary to understand how God can actually be everything, including you (of course).

Quote:

It's a rational attempt to explain the mind-body problem



Which it completely fails at doing.




I get that you have a different take on God and the Universe, but I'm not getting your argument. Mainly because it's not an argument.




lol

This is awesome

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: My all time favorite proof of the impossibility of 'GOD' as an All-Powerfull Bieng. [Re: totallymyhat]
    #13307922 - 10/08/10 09:43 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The materialism bit was just a side thing my argument against his OP is this.

He says God cannot be omnipotent because God desired to create him but God didn't create him and still exists. Why does he think God is not worthy of being called God unless he created him?

Also, action does not always require desire. Take a sleep walking individual, he can perform actions such as drinking and talking yet remain completely oblivious, no effort or will is required.

Even thoughts themselves happen passively and automatically.


The bit on materialism wasn't an argument it was a suggestion.

Quote:

If you don't mind, what do you understand materialism to be




The belief that the universe is ultimately a substance, and that only substance exists. Materialists deny that the human self is any way spiritual or a non-material substance. According to materialists all feelings, thoughts, even beliefs can be explained away as material processes.

Quote:

why is it necessary to abandon in order to understand God?




Given the above it is quite obvious. Materialism has us believe that we are merely an accumulation of matter, we are pieces made of smaller pieces. This leads us to believe we are isolated from one one another and everything else and everything is divisible and dual.

Materialism even explains love as a complex material process.
Materialism annihilates spiritualism.

How can you believe in God the sole indivisible existence when you believe in duality?


Quote:

Also, how does it, as you put, completely fail?




It fails because it cannot account for experience itself.

"To explain newly discovered phenomena such as the constancy of the speed of light, the behavior of subatomic particles, and experience itself, science must increasingly resort to metaphor and untestable conjectures such as folding spacetime, invisible strings, cosmic
harmonics, and multiple metaphysical dimensions. Science can no longer
explain in purely material terms what we know of our world. What was once a straightforward theory of matter and energy is becoming swamped in a sea of its own burgeoning metaphysics, exponentially expanding in complexity, a clear signof a dying system. It is time to reexamine the foundation of our thinking at its core and rebuild it."
-Christopher Ott



Quote:

What, if any, rational alternatives to materialism do you propose?




That only experience or perception itself exists. Perception evolves to create the rich complex world we see today, it evolves following cause and effect laws of perception.

Hence the image is not real, only the source of the image is real, indivisible infinite perception.

"God is infinite, and his shadow is also infinite. The shadow of God is the infinite space that accommodates the infinite Gross sphere, which, with its occurrences of millions of universes, within and without the range of man's knowledge, is the creation that issued from the point of finiteness in the infinite existence that is God."

"God is infinite reality, whereas cosmos is infinite illusion. But both are not infinite in the same sense. God is one infinite, and illusion is infinite in numbers. God is infinite unity, and illusion infinite duality. Always God is. All along illusion is not. Illusion or no illusion, God remains beginningless and endless, while illusion has a beginning in illusion and it also ends in illusion. The infinite illusion includes an infinite number of suns, stars, moons, planets and worlds. The whole of the creation goes on evolving ad infinitum in illusion."

Meher baba

Edited by soldatheero (10/08/10 12:34 PM)

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Offlinetotallymyhat
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Re: My all time favorite proof of the impossibility of 'GOD' as an All-Powerfull Bieng. [Re: soldatheero]
    #13312218 - 10/09/10 10:36 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Well I'm still really hungover, but...

Quote:

He says God cannot be omnipotent because God desired to create him but God didn't create him and still exists. Why does he think God is not worthy of being called God unless he created him?




I don't understand how you support this. Please explain why God, according to this argument, didn't "create him".

Quote:

He says God cannot be omnipotent because God desired to create him but God didn't create him and still exists. Why does he think God is not worthy of being called God unless he created him?




I get that this upsets you, but this isn't an argument against materlism.

Quote:

Given the above it is quite obvious. Materialism has us believe that we are merely an accumulation of matter, we are pieces made of smaller pieces. This leads us to believe we are isolated from one one another and everything else and everything is divisible and dual.

Materialism even explains love as a complex material process.
Materialism annihilates spiritualism.




Maybe I'm still drunk. Actually, I am still drunk, but this isn't addressing the argument at all. So what if materialism "annihilates" spiritualism? Your personal beliefs aren't relevant to the proposed argument. Oh yeah, I forgot to include in the quote and I'm too lazy to redo it now, but how is materialism dualism? Maybe read the mind-body problem and how either materialism or idealsim solves this first?

Quote:

"To explain newly discovered phenomena such as the constancy of the speed of light, the behavior of subatomic particles, and experience itself, science must increasingly resort to metaphor and untestable conjectures such as folding spacetime, invisible strings, cosmic
harmonics, and multiple metaphysical dimensions. Science can no longer
explain in purely material terms what we know of our world. What was once a straightforward theory of matter and energy is becoming swamped in a sea of its own burgeoning metaphysics, exponentially expanding in complexity, a clear signof a dying system. It is time to reexamine the foundation of our thinking at its core and rebuild it." -Christopher Ott




How exactly is science untestable? Is this guy trying to refute science because "it's hard"?

Quote:

That only experience or perception itself exists. Perception evolves to create the rich complex world we see today, it evolves following cause and effect laws of perception.

Hence the image is not real, only the source of the image is real, indivisible infinite perception.

"God is infinite, and his shadow is also infinite. The shadow of God is the infinite space that accommodates the infinite Gross sphere, which, with its occurrences of millions of universes, within and without the range of man's knowledge, is the creation that issued from the point of finiteness in the infinite existence that is God."

"God is infinite reality, whereas cosmos is infinite illusion. But both are not infinite in the same sense. God is one infinite, and illusion is infinite in numbers. God is infinite unity, and illusion infinite duality. Always God is. All along illusion is not. Illusion or no illusion, God remains beginningless and endless, while illusion has a beginning in illusion and it also ends in illusion. The infinite illusion includes an infinite number of suns, stars, moons, planets and worlds. The whole of the creation goes on evolving ad infinitum in illusion."
Meher baba




What are cause and effect laws of perception? Read Berkeley on idealism. Either way, still not addressing the argument. I say God is a malevolent fire wielding goat! See where I'm going with this? Not really on topic. I realize I'm being a bit offensive here and apologize, I'll be sober later to make more sense of this. Hopefully this isn't too hard to get through but who knows, I usually think I make sense when I drink but that's rarely true. Later.


--------------------
"When we are dead seek not our tomb in the earth, but find it in the hearts of men."  -Rumi

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Offlineevildee125
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Re: My all time favorite proof of the impossibility of 'GOD' as an All-Powerfull Bieng. [Re: totallymyhat]
    #13312264 - 10/09/10 10:50 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

what if.. god creates for shit and giggles.. not like we do, you know for gain blah blah etc.. but simply for the sake of doing so..


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