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OfflineDarwin23
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Re: Why I Hate Republicans [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13361810 - 10/20/10 11:54 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Actually it isn't mindless or requiring nothing but that still puts it miles ahead of just about every social worker job.  And no, not everyone can do it.  It requires you to actually produce, at least until you are fully vested in the union.  And most productive jobs aren't union or factory jobs anyway.  And you really are an amazingly arrogant little creature.  "Oh I go to collidge and are 'marter than you."  You know what, kid?  After you have gotten done supporting yourself and a family come back and tell me how much better you are than somebody who makes cars.  WAFA.


 

Relax man, I'm not trying to disrespect you. I've been saying this whole time, those people that work in factories deserve just as much, but every statistic you look at says you will make more money with a better degree. I'm not saying I'm better, please don't take it like that. I know nobody, who graduated the same year as me, that lives on their own with the income from one job.

As for all the statistics being bullshit, why even trust any figure then? Colleges are a business, I'm not denying that. I have to take required classes in certain areas. This leaves me taking bullshit classes like History of Rock and Sociology of Race. That in no way should put me ahead of someone else for a job, but if the employer is looking at someone with a GED and someone with a Bachelor's, it's no contest. I'm not saying AT ALL that a degree makes you a better person, but it opens up more jobs to you. I know you don't believe the statistics but just so I'm not making shit up:

Info Please

College Board

Bureau of Labor Statistics


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Take a look at my journal

Edited by Darwin23 (10/20/10 11:55 AM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Why I Hate Republicans [Re: Darwin23]
    #13361837 - 10/20/10 12:01 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Your links do not discriminate between real degrees and crap degrees.  I would hazard a guess that for most people not getting a degree in engineering or other market relevant field (MBA comes to mind as does MD, not so sure about JD) they have actually wasted their time and money to such an extent as to cause a net negative on their earnings.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Why I Hate Republicans [Re: Darwin23]
    #13361899 - 10/20/10 12:16 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Union workers in factories make hella money dude.  I have a B.S. and I make 20k a year, which is fine but much less than a factory worker.  Factory workers are probably very over-payed, as evidenced by the factory jobs moving over seas.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why I Hate Republicans [Re: DieCommie]
    #13361962 - 10/20/10 12:34 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Not to mention the UAW, which managed to destroy two auto companies with grotesque wages.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Why I Hate Republicans [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13362058 - 10/20/10 01:01 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

http://collegeaffordability.blogspot.com/2010/10/underemployed-college-graduate.html

'Struth.  Money shot:

It may be a laudable goal to increase the amount of college graduates in the work force, but it is truly misguided. Society would be better served if it instead focused its resources towards vocational educations and certifications, a less costly and more effective alternative.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Why I Hate Republicans [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13362066 - 10/20/10 01:03 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with that ^^  Too many people go to college, and they go for a high paying job not for the education.  If you want a high paying job, you should learn a trade.  College is for a liberal arts education.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why I Hate Republicans [Re: DieCommie]
    #13362090 - 10/20/10 01:08 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that a liberal arts education is best found outside of college.  Because there is nothing classically liberal about the education you can get from the overwhelmingly constricted population filling their lecterns.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Why I Hate Republicans [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13362110 - 10/20/10 01:11 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Its liberal because you have to take many different subjects outside of your focus.  This doesn't happen when you learn a trade.  Im very appreciative that my education was 'liberal' in this sense.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Why I Hate Republicans [Re: DieCommie]
    #13362259 - 10/20/10 01:50 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Well I would expand that to include a wide range of viewpoints to be included in exactly your definition of "liberal".  Sadly that does not exist in academia, probably the most stunted cauldron of ideas in all of modern American thought.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Why I Hate Republicans [Re: Darwin23]
    #13362429 - 10/20/10 02:35 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Darwin23 said:
Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Except that when everyone (or most people) is making less money, the purchasing power of the currency is higher, because the primary players in the economy (the workers) value the currency more.  Furthermore, since companies are paying their workers less, their products are cheaper and more affordable to those same workers.




That's another logic driven argument that makes so much sense, in theory. So, if we look at unemployment rates in 2006 they were 4.7%. Now in 2010 they're somewhere in the mid 9.0's (I've heard 10% but, I can't seem to find a national rate, everything is saying specific state rates). So for the sake of argument, let's put it at 9.4%, that would be double the unemployment rate. Median income also took a hit (couldn't find any national data). In some parts of the country it was as little as a 1% (El Paso) drop while in others it was almost 10% (DuPage County,IL). Yet, the only data I can find on price deflation was a 0.6% drop in cost of living. To put that in perspective, if the monetly bills were $1,000 they would decrease to $994.




What point are you trying to make here?

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Why I Hate Republicans [Re: DieCommie]
    #13362930 - 10/20/10 04:44 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Union workers in factories make hella money dude.  I have a B.S. and I make 20k a year, which is fine but much less than a factory worker.  Factory workers are probably very over-payed, as evidenced by the factory jobs moving over seas.




Yes, but if I understand the source of this 20k, it is only partial compensation for your services, and is almost entirely funded by government sources, so I don't think comparing yourself to a factory worker is the same thing (well, besides GM where the workers are sucking harder on the tit than a public university or its employees could ever hope to).  No sleight against you, I hope to proceed in a similar direction, but lets not pretend this is a free market.

off topic, but around here, the physical sciences have a much more conservative faculty than the university as a whole (i.e. compared to the grievance studies zappa mentions), but it always amused me how these folks never seem to think twice of the public assistance recieved by them or their institution which helps employ them.  Always found it a bit strange listening to a prof criticize liberal spending when the same guy is a government worker employed by a plethora of public grants to do research that largely is undesired by private entities.

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OfflineDarwin23
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Re: Why I Hate Republicans [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #13362940 - 10/20/10 04:47 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
What point are you trying to make here?




Even though the theory makes perfect sense, when the economy is suffering, it doesn't necessarily mean prices will go down, because or prices haven't even though are economy is really bad right now.


--------------------

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Why I Hate Republicans [Re: Darwin23]
    #13363059 - 10/20/10 05:12 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Darwin23 said:
Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
What point are you trying to make here?




Even though the theory makes perfect sense, when the economy is suffering, it doesn't necessarily mean prices will go down,




I wasn't talking about a suffering economy, I was talking about a healthy economy.

Quote:

because or prices haven't even though are economy is really bad right now.




You said yourself, they did go down.

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OfflineHippieChick8
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Re: Why I Hate Republicans [Re: Darwin23]
    #13364240 - 10/20/10 09:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Darwin23 said:
Quote:

I believe any person that works a full time job deserves an income they can live on.




I've made this same statement before in this forum.  Most of the people in this forum do not believe in a living wage.  They believe if you do not have the mental capacity to advance to "manager" or work some kind of job that requires "technical skills" than you do not *deserve* to be paid enough to afford a basic place to live, utilities and food.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Why I Hate Republicans [Re: HippieChick8]
    #13364423 - 10/20/10 10:30 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Anybody who works a full time job in the US does get an income they could live on.  The whiners just complain because they cant afford as many luxuries as their neighbor.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Why I Hate Republicans [Re: DieCommie]
    #13364587 - 10/20/10 11:10 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

HippieChick8 said:
Darwin23 said:
Quote:

I believe any person that works a full time job deserves an income they can live on.




I've made this same statement before in this forum.  Most of the people in this forum do not believe in a living wage.  They believe if you do not have the mental capacity to advance to "manager" or work some kind of job that requires "technical skills" than you do not *deserve* to be paid enough to afford a basic place to live, utilities and food.




I understand why you may think this, but I disagree and feel if you look at the issue you'll agree this is inaccurate.

Your primary error is in presuming that others do not differentiate between what is desirable or should be and what is a right enforcable by violence against another.

You are saying that those in this forum do not believe in a living wage or that someone 'deserves' it under certain situations, however; if you consider that what people are actually saying is that these people have no right to use violent force to obtain these things from a given person, I think you'll understand why your synopsis is inaccurate.

I imagine everyone agrees with you that a living wage is nice and great and dumb people should have roller coasters and anything else they want.  The actual issue of contention is whether that person can forcefully take such from arbitrary people.


Darwin23, You have several outstanding criticisms of assertions you've made.  Rather than going on declaring new things to be so I think you should address those claims you've made previously and not established as true

Quote:

I don't believe there should be rich and poor. I believe any person that works a full time job deserves an income they can live on. Many CEO's get rich by underpaying their employees, that is my fundamental problem with Capitalism. I in no way believe I (or anyone else) deserve(s) to get something for nothing (I'm not whining for government aid). I don't believe in taking from the rich and giving to the poor, unless it's taxes paying for something like the educational system, not foodstamps or WIC.




Fine, everyone should get a living wage if they work full time.  The question is who is it that this right may be excercised against, and if the answer is nobody, what does this have to do with government?

You say you don't believe taking from the rich and giving to the poor, however; if this is so then there should be no debate, and yet there is.  How do you reconcile this claim with the several points of unresolved contention between yourself and others in this forum regarding socialist-type law?

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OfflineHippieChick8
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Registered: 06/25/09
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Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Why I Hate Republicans [Re: DieCommie]
    #13368884 - 10/21/10 09:33 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Die Commie said:
Quote:

Anybody who works a full time job in the US does get an income they could live on.  The whiners just complain because they cant afford as many luxuries as their neighbor.




It is extremely difficult for those who rent and/or have a car payment to cover their expenses earning the minimum wage.  Before anyone mentions public transportation, just keep in mind that many minimum wage earners cannot afford to live in the city where they work and must commute from a rural area or another city.  My husband used to hitchike when his car wasn't running.  I suppose some of y'all think of that as "leeching" a free ride even if you weren't obligated to pick him up.  Now he picks up hitchhikers.  Did it ever occur to you that some folks are just struggling to get by, and they aren't thinking of their neighbor's luxuries?

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OfflineHippieChick8
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Re: Why I Hate Republicans [Re: johnm214]
    #13368964 - 10/21/10 09:51 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

johnm214 said:
Quote:

I imagine everyone agrees with you that a living wage is nice and great and dumb people should have roller coasters and anything else they want.



This is ridiculous and I never even insinuated what dumb people should or shouldn't have.  I said people willing to work full time should be able to afford a place to live, utilities, and food.

Quote:

You are saying that those in this forum do not believe in a living wage or that someone 'deserves' it under certain situations, however; if you consider that what people are actually saying is that these people have no right to use violent force to obtain these things from a given person, I think you'll understand why your synopsis is inaccurate.



Who is using "violent force to obtain these things", the poor person just trying to eke out a living working at a minimum wage job?  That is laughable.  You must be talking about the IRS.  That is your enemy, not the low wage earners.  The low wage earners are not taking or stealing money out of your pocket by any means of force. (Unless they are physically robbing you).  If the low wage earners do not have the mental capacity to advance in their jobs, what do you suggest that they do, kill themselves?

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Why I Hate Republicans [Re: HippieChick8]
    #13369011 - 10/21/10 10:02 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

HippieChick8 said:
Who is using "violent force to obtain these things", the poor person just trying to eke out a living working at a minimum wage job?  That is laughable.  You must be talking about the IRS.  That is your enemy, not the low wage earners.  The low wage earners are not taking or stealing money out of your pocket by any means of force. (Unless they are physically robbing you).





My enemy?  I don't pay tax for all practical purposes, so this has no present relevance to me necessarily.

I don't understand your assertion that the "low wage earners" aren't taking from [people] by force and that the IRS is [people's] enemy.  Wasn't your entire post justifying the provision of wealth to those low wage earners you mentioned previously, along with the other classes agrieved for whatever reason?  If you do not maintain they have this privledge and right then there is no debate- how could there be?

Quote:

If the low wage earners do not have the mental capacity to advance in their jobs, what do you suggest that they do, kill themselves?




I don't suggest they do anything- not my buisness.  I neither created them nor will I kill them.  In fact, I am them, and I am personally going to school and hopefully will not be a low wage earner at some point, but that's neither here nor there, since I have no duty to provide solutions or advice for any other low wage earner but myself.

I believe you may be conflating the nature of existance with my position- that people die if they don't eat is not a consequence of my argument, that's life.  All I'm saying is that there is no right of another to seize wealth that is not his so that he may live in the way he would prefer.

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