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OfflineObliviousSeeker
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Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 184
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long)
    #13306672 - 10/08/10 02:36 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

I've had this account before becoming Christian which is roughly 3 years now.  I've smoked DMT, taken strong acid and ate mushrooms 20+ times.  I mention this not because I am proud of it but because I want people reading this to know.   

I have noticed that the majority negative feelings toward Christianity originate with bad experiences with religion.  The primary culprit is Catholicism.  I went to Catholic school until 4th grade so I understand.

This post is not about documenting the unbiblical behavior of the Catholic church.  It is to present the biblical doctrines of grace to you. 

The Doctrines of Grace (5 points of Calvinism)

Calvinism is based upon Sola Scriptura (the bible alone as the final authority for doctrine).  All conclusions come from sound exegesis of scripture only. 

    Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

    Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
    Unconditional Election
    Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
    Irresistible Grace
    Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

      These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points.

      Total Depravity:
      Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
      The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
    Calvinism also maintains that because of our s fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

      Unconditional Election:
    God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

      Limited Atonement:
    Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

      Irresistible Grace:
    When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.

      Perseverance of the Saints:
    You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

taken from: http://www.mslick.com/tulip.htm
additional resources: http://www.monergism.com

"3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." Ephesians 1:3-6


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13306823 - 10/08/10 03:17 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Smelly poop.

:penis:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinetotallymyhat
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #13307098 - 10/08/10 04:27 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

I think it's commendable that you try to focus on the positive aspects of your religion. It seems to give you much fulfillment. Also it appears that sharing this is derived from thoughtful and well-meaning intentions. However, how do you justify simply picking and choosing which parts you adhere to? How would you respond to say... Leviticus? There are no doubt many positive verses throughout the Bible, but there are equally many atrocious. I think many people's objections to Christianity have to do with the fact that the grace you speak so highly of, is/has been used to persecute nearly every imaginable group of people.


--------------------
"When we are dead seek not our tomb in the earth, but find it in the hearts of men."  -Rumi


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13307237 - 10/08/10 05:47 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ObliviousSeeker said:
It is to present the biblical doctrines of grace to you. 




Seems to be a pretty flawed and relatively pointless doctrine without any kind of credible basis. :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: totallymyhat]
    #13307283 - 10/08/10 06:29 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

yes, but leviticus seems to be inapplicable to the christian per the "he who is without sin" speech of the J man and his coming having fulfilled the old covenant- which he talks about somewhere.


Of course, the nutters still like to quote it to condemn homosexuality and whatnot, but if your just going off the text and ignoring the teachings of the various jesus clubs, it does seem fair to ignore the old testiment's laws- at least those Mosses and friends made


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #13307355 - 10/08/10 07:21 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Smelly poop.

:penis:




Wow.

:facepalm:


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #13307361 - 10/08/10 07:25 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Oh no, alfafalfa got offended, I wonder how I am going to live with this! :frown:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13307375 - 10/08/10 07:34 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ObliviousSeeker said:
I've had this account before becoming Christian which is roughly 3 years now.  I've smoked DMT, taken strong acid and ate mushrooms 20+ times.  I mention this not because I am proud of it but because I want people reading this to know.   

I have noticed that the majority negative feelings toward Christianity originate with bad experiences with religion.  The primary culprit is Catholicism.  I went to Catholic school until 4th grade so I understand.

This post is not about documenting the unbiblical behavior of the Catholic church.  It is to present the biblical doctrines of grace to you. 

The Doctrines of Grace (5 points of Calvinism)

Calvinism is based upon Sola Scriptura (the bible alone as the final authority for doctrine).  All conclusions come from sound exegesis of scripture only. 

    Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

    Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
    Unconditional Election
    Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
    Irresistible Grace
    Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

      These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points.

      Total Depravity:
      Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
      The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
    Calvinism also maintains that because of our s fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

      Unconditional Election:
    God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

      Limited Atonement:
    Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

      Irresistible Grace:
    When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.

      Perseverance of the Saints:
    You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

taken from: http://www.mslick.com/tulip.htm
additional resources: http://www.monergism.com

"3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." Ephesians 1:3-6





God can't exist with desire and be all powerful and/or benevolent. Read some of the threads going on now about god for further explanation.

Religion is really just a way to control poor people from mutiny, from banding and violently taking from the rich, without the rich having to forcefully protect themselves.

Really, imagine, your a peasant poor, malnourished, working long hours, you witness enough riches in one rich man to free a village from slavery, you know that to attain those riches, you must be violent and kill. The rich guy however, forces upon you the notion that killing sends you to an eternity of burning and torture...you figure, hey might as well just struggle it out, when I get to heaven it will be my turn for the riches.

Many instances in the bible show praise to the poor. Indeed, many gospels directly speak about paying taxes and money.

It really makes plenty of sense, especially considering that the rich controlled centralized forms of education unlike today, making that way easier a way to control masses of pissed and angry impoverished slaves to keep tilling their fields making their bread, butter, meats, veggies, wine, drugs, producing fine sexual specimens, etc etc.

I know that this is probally alot to swallow, heck its been difficult for me to do so in about a years time.

Quote:

Jesus Talks About Paying Taxes
24 When Jesus and his followers came to Capernaum, the men who collected the Temple tax came to Peter. They asked, "Does your teacher pay the Temple tax?"

25 Peter answered, "Yes, Jesus pays the tax."

  Peter went into the house, but before he could speak, Jesus said to him, "What do you think? The kings of the earth collect different kinds of taxes. But who pays the taxes—the king's children or others?"

26 Peter answered, "Other people pay the taxes."

  Jesus said to Peter, "Then the children of the king don't have to pay taxes. 27 But we don't want to upset these tax collectors. So go to the lake and fish. After you catch the first fish, open its mouth and you will find a coin. Take that coin and give it to the tax collectors for you and me."




Quote:

Luke 20:20-40
Paying Taxes to Caesar
Keeping a close watch 20 on him, they sent spies, who pretended to be honest.
They hoped to catch Jesus in something he said so that they might hand him over
to the power and authority of the governor. 21 So the spies questioned him:
“Teacher, we know that you speak and teach what is right, and that you do not
show partiality but teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. 22 Is it right
for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?”
23 He saw through their duplicity and said to them, 24 “Show me a denarius.
Whose portrait and inscription are on it?”
25 “Caesar’s,” they replied.
He said to them, “Then give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is
God’s.”
26 They were unable to trap him in what he had said there in public. And
astonished by his answer, they became silent.




:cheers:


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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InvisibleIcelander
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Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #13307536 - 10/08/10 09:12 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Smelly poop.

:penis:




:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinetotallymyhat
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: johnm214]
    #13307632 - 10/08/10 09:57 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Of course, the nutters still like to quote it to condemn homosexuality and whatnot, but if your just going off the text and ignoring the teachings of the various jesus clubs, it does seem fair to ignore the old testiment's laws- at least those Mosses and friends made




Granted, but I thought Jesus endorsed the old testament? Like in early Matthew?


--------------------
"When we are dead seek not our tomb in the earth, but find it in the hearts of men."  -Rumi


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OfflineObliviousSeeker
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Registered: 08/25/06
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: totallymyhat]
    #13309009 - 10/08/10 04:19 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

totallymyhat said:
I think it's commendable that you try to focus on the positive aspects of your religion. It seems to give you much fulfillment. Also it appears that sharing this is derived from thoughtful and well-meaning intentions. However, how do you justify simply picking and choosing which parts you adhere to? How would you respond to say... Leviticus? There are no doubt many positive verses throughout the Bible, but there are equally many atrocious. I think many people's objections to Christianity have to do with the fact that the grace you speak so highly of, is/has been used to persecute nearly every imaginable group of people.




The bible commands us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves.  Jesus said "All of the Law and the prophets hangs on this command." 

I don't quite understand what you mean when you say grace has been used to persecute people since grace is, well, grace.  Forgiveness and grace and patience are just some of the many positive attitudes the bible instructs its readers with. 

But we are also given serious warnings from the bible and it is expected that bad things will come, even things that pretend to be good, religious, or Godly, but are not.
"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour." (1 John 2:18)

Last night at my church's bible study I met a young man named Nate who has been living in Cairo, Egypt for many years now.  He is only 25 and gave a presentation for us.  He has moved there because of his love for Jesus Christ and the gospel and his passion for going to children in need.  Cairo has a population of 22 million people and there are hundreds of thousands of "street kids" there.  This is an example of a true Christian who is in love with Jesus.

The things of this world, the material things, are all passing away and will not last.  But the rewards of doing the will of God lasts for eternity.  Salvation comes by faith alone in Christ alone.  But we have the opportunity to reap unimaginable rewards in eternity by laying down our own lives for the lives of others and to follow Christ.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13310039 - 10/08/10 08:52 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

I too hold to the Doctrines of Grace, the one and only true gospel.

All those semi-Pelagians, and those TOLERANT of semi-Pelagians, are lost and DO NOT have the truth.

This includes Charles Spurgeon, who called John Wesley a brother.  Wesley was dead set against grace and devoted his life to crushing it.  Instead of denouncing Wesley as a heretic, Spurgeon joined Wesley in crushing true grace by making it a non-essential doctrine.  Any true Christian would have denounced Wesley and Spurgeon.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: fivepointer]
    #13310293 - 10/08/10 09:55 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

:ass::poop:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Icelander]
    #13312869 - 10/09/10 03:26 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

You need to repent and believe the gospel.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13313950 - 10/09/10 09:28 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I have noticed that the majority negative feelings toward Christianity originate with bad experiences with religion.  The primary culprit is Catholicism.  I went to Catholic school until 4th grade so I understand.



Actually, I had rather positive experiences at the Catholic High School I attended.  Calvinism, on the other hand, strikes me as most offensive and perverse interpretation of Christianity I've ever heard.  We're supposed to believe that God created billions of people with the express intention of sending the vast majority of them to be tortured for eternity, and there's nothing any of them can do about it?  That's pretty psychotic if you ask me, though I could see it making for great horror fiction.  I actually wonder if H. P. Lovecraft was covertly promoting Calvinism with his Cthulhu mythos.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Silversoul]
    #13314020 - 10/09/10 09:48 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

I guess you weren't an alter boy.:lol:

I do agree about the fivepointers... er... Calvinists.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinetotallymyhat
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Icelander]
    #13314357 - 10/09/10 11:42 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ObliviousSeeker said:
The bible commands us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves.  Jesus said "All of the Law and the prophets hangs on this command." 




I don't "follow" the bible. It's mythology. There is more evidence for the existence of Harry Potter than Jesus.

Quote:

I don't quite understand what you mean when you say grace has been used to persecute people since grace is, well, grace.  Forgiveness and grace and patience are just some of the many positive attitudes the bible instructs its readers with.




I was being sarcastic. Christians have gracefully killed millions. I know, I know, those christians were "led astray". Yet they read the exact same book. If interpretation is so vital to "getting it right" why did god contradict himself so much?

Quote:

But we are also given serious warnings from the bible and it is expected that bad things will come, even things that pretend to be good, religious, or Godly, but are not.
"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour." (1 John 2:18)




I'm going to suffer eternal torment for not believing in your god's grace?

Quote:

Last night at my church's bible study I met a young man named Nate who has been living in Cairo, Egypt for many years now.  He is only 25 and gave a presentation for us.  He has moved there because of his love for Jesus Christ and the gospel and his passion for going to children in need.  Cairo has a population of 22 million people and there are hundreds of thousands of "street kids" there.  This is an example of a true Christian who is in love with Jesus.




Good for him. Sincerely. The world needs people like that. However, the effects of christianity can also have terrible consequences seeing as they claim to be the only source of morality and insist other countries adopt it. See: Rick Warren, Martin Ssempa in Uganda.

Question: Seeing as with Calvinism everything is predestined, doesn't that mean god knowingly created people he intends to torture forever regardless of their choices? Graceful.


--------------------
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: totallymyhat]
    #13314400 - 10/09/10 11:53 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

I'm going to suffer eternal torment for not believing in your god's grace?

:lol:

My boy you will be condemned to burn for eternity by an all loving God.:hellfire:


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Icelander]
    #13314489 - 10/10/10 12:19 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

All who spend an eternity in Hell, DESERVE IT!  Even the saved deserve Hell, they get what they don't deserve GRACE!

There is no injustice in sending people to Hell.  God is the ultimate judge, all His judgments are true and right by definition.  Because you can not comprehend God's standard of righteousness and judgment you make God out to be the unjust one, when you are the unjust one with a perverse right/wrong standard.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #13314780 - 10/10/10 01:55 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Smelly poop.





BIG Smelly poop.

Do I have to ignore yet another bigot. Christians, so-called, haven't the slightest clue that the gospels were written by and for Jewish Christians as liturgy for their new practices according to the Jewish calendar of holy days.
Augustine concocted Original Sin to make the church-controlled sacraments absolutely necessary for 'salvation,' since Christ was infused by the sacraments. Jesus would've held to Jewish theology of a Good and Evil Intention (Yetzer Tov and Yetzer Hara), not total depravity. This is a perverse doctrine. The legitimate Christian notions are from Jewish sources, the Hellenized aspects (like 'Incarnation' of God through a woman) is pure Greek mythology. That is why most Jews didn't accept the later Christian doctrines. They had their own mythology, and didn't want to go Greek. Besides mythology (which is sacred in its own right), there is metaphor and midrash, and metaphysics. Reading biblical material as literal or historical is delusional or puerile. Period. In either case, ignorance rules, and if it's delusional adults, they tend to be fanatical and dangerous. There is nothing Christ-like about any 'Christian' who does not simply love, but who judges and condemns others.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: fivepointer]
    #13314806 - 10/10/10 02:03 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
All who spend an eternity in Hell, DESERVE IT!  Even the saved deserve Hell, they get what they don't deserve GRACE!

There is no injustice in sending people to Hell.  God is the ultimate judge, all His judgments are true and right by definition.  Because you can not comprehend God's standard of righteousness and judgment you make God out to be the unjust one, when you are the unjust one with a perverse right/wrong standard.




I don't believe I've stated what morals I adhere to. It was a simple question, if God is infinitely loving, why did he create people he knew he would send to hell and suffer? I assume the counter to this one will be the old "mysterious ways" clause. However if God is so mysterious and works in ways we cannot fathom, why is he so specific on things like abortion, homosexuality, masturbation, slave owning, etc?. It can't be both mysterious on one hand and perfectly explainable on the other. Still, this is all assuming someone invokes the mysterious ways catch-all.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: totallymyhat]
    #13315423 - 10/10/10 09:25 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

totallymyhat said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
All who spend an eternity in Hell, DESERVE IT!  Even the saved deserve Hell, they get what they don't deserve GRACE!

There is no injustice in sending people to Hell.  God is the ultimate judge, all His judgments are true and right by definition.  Because you can not comprehend God's standard of righteousness and judgment you make God out to be the unjust one, when you are the unjust one with a perverse right/wrong standard.




I don't believe I've stated what morals I adhere to. It was a simple question, if God is infinitely loving, why did he create people he knew he would send to hell and suffer? I assume the counter to this one will be the old "mysterious ways" clause. However if God is so mysterious and works in ways we cannot fathom, why is he so specific on things like abortion, homosexuality, masturbation, slave owning, etc?. It can't be both mysterious on one hand and perfectly explainable on the other. Still, this is all assuming someone invokes the mysterious ways catch-all.



The reprobate serve the purpose of demonstrating God's righteousness and justice.  The elect demonstrate God's love and mercy.  Both serve God's purpose, the glorification of who God is. 

Contrary to popular opinion of today, the reprobate are NEVER loved by God.  They are vessels fitted for destruction.  Only the elect are loved from eternity past to eternity future.  Many verses show how God hardens the reprobate.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: fivepointer]
    #13315432 - 10/10/10 09:34 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Right, this is my point. I'm not questioning whether god does or doesn't love a certain group. God created people for no other purpose than to torture them. Graceful.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: totallymyhat]
    #13315462 - 10/10/10 10:10 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

totallymyhat said:
Right, this is my point. I'm not questioning whether god does or doesn't love a certain group. God created people for no other purpose than to torture them. Graceful.



They are not meant to demonstrate grace, only justice.  Again you concentrate on the punishment, not the justice.  The punishment is FAIR and JUST, it just seems harsh and unjust because people do not understand God's standard of righteousness.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #13315480 - 10/10/10 10:29 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Smelly poop.





BIG Smelly poop.

Do I have to ignore yet another bigot. Christians, so-called, haven't the slightest clue that the gospels were written by and for Jewish Christians as liturgy for their new practices according to the Jewish calendar of holy days.
Augustine concocted Original Sin to make the church-controlled sacraments absolutely necessary for 'salvation,' since Christ was infused by the sacraments. Jesus would've held to Jewish theology of a Good and Evil Intention (Yetzer Tov and Yetzer Hara), not total depravity. This is a perverse doctrine. The legitimate Christian notions are from Jewish sources, the Hellenized aspects (like 'Incarnation' of God through a woman) is pure Greek mythology. That is why most Jews didn't accept the later Christian doctrines. They had their own mythology, and didn't want to go Greek. Besides mythology (which is sacred in its own right), there is metaphor and midrash, and metaphysics. Reading biblical material as literal or historical is delusional or puerile. Period. In either case, ignorance rules, and if it's delusional adults, they tend to be fanatical and dangerous. There is nothing Christ-like about any 'Christian' who does not simply love, but who judges and condemns others.



Total Depravity is not based on Augustine, it is based on scripture.  Scripture is the sole authority of all doctrine, not Augustine, not Spong.  You have to throw out scripture to throw out Total Depravity.  It is apparent you have already thrown out scripture as the Word of God.  It is delusional or puerile to call yourself a Christian and throw out the very foundation of the faith, the Bible.  Spongites follow Spong and despise the Word of God, and all the doctrines of the faith.  Spongites need to repent and believe the true gospel, not the fantasies of a deluded man.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: fivepointer]
    #13315512 - 10/10/10 10:55 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Another fine, graceful Christian that justifies an injustice through scripture.  I'm sure similar conversations occurred just prior to the Salem Witch Trials, the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition.  "We'll just torture them till they denounce witchcraft and accept Christ as their loving savior."  LOL

FF


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: fivepointer]
    #13315572 - 10/10/10 11:19 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

I am a Christian and do agree with the theology in the original post mostly. They are beautiful truths to one who has been touched by God and been given new life. Though they are man trying to put God into a box. They are useful points, but anybody who has studied the Bible knows there are difficult passages that seemingly contradict another. Some of Calvinism focuses on one aspect of God's truths and ignores others to make neat and tidy theology.

Fivepointer, dude come on. Your attitude here is not like Christ's. We do not see Jesus condescendingly spouting out truth and exhibiting the pride that you seem to have. It disturbs me that you display no compassion for those who do not know God. Jesus did not say follow me, but only if you are elect. For God so loved the WORLD that He sent his Son. The Lord is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

God has love for every one of us. He is not well pleased with any of His servants except Christ and by grace those whose trust is in Him. Our hope is in Him alone and though you know that, do not forget it while holding your theology so high in your mind. To call men like Spurgeon and Wesley lost is ridiculous. Though the gate and way that lead to life are narrow, you seem to think it is exclusive to a certain elite who know something, not those who ARE something. Jesus said we would be known by our love. You display an immaturity in your application of these great truths. They set me free and while I will not compromise the gospel, I do not think it wise to focus on aspects of the Scipture that are difficult even for those who follow the Lord to grasp. Predestination is true but so is free will. Explain that. Don't get too heavy on one side. God is completely sovereign and He has given us a will of our own.

It is awesome to hear from another in the original post who has navigated out of psychedelic confusion and been established on the only unshakable foundation.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: palmersc]
    #13315605 - 10/10/10 11:31 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

palmersc said:
the only unshakable foundation.




How would you know?


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #13315625 - 10/10/10 11:39 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

So the answer to the question is God isn't about love, but justice? He created people he knew would suffer for the sake of justice? Got it.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: totallymyhat]
    #13315676 - 10/10/10 11:54 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

The point with ALL religions is that nobody knows.  There are no established facts.  Religion is by definition based on faith in something unprovable.  Nobody knows if they are right till they are dead.  Those that do proclaim to know for a fact are deluding themselves (edit: or trying to separate you from your wallet).  They do not allow themselves to admit that because it would disturb the foundation of their faith. They cannot allow themselves to doubt.

I have faith that it's all bunk. I don't KNOW because I haven't died yet.  Neither does anyone else typing in this forum, and that includes the Pope in Rome or that fellow in Atlanta that's been accused of porking the teenage boys in his group.

FF


Edited by Fungy Fipps (10/10/10 12:23 PM)


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: totallymyhat]
    #13315696 - 10/10/10 11:59 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

totallymyhat said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Of course, the nutters still like to quote it to condemn homosexuality and whatnot, but if your just going off the text and ignoring the teachings of the various jesus clubs, it does seem fair to ignore the old testiment's laws- at least those Mosses and friends made




Granted, but I thought Jesus endorsed the old testament? Like in early Matthew?





You referring to the 'you have heard x, but I say unto you y' thing in the sermon on the mount?  Basically I just take that at its word.  Jesus clearly changed the law, so it is not indellible, and I don't recall any clear statement that the law continues.  Moreover, he didn't clearly say or imply that the old law was even valid, all he said was "you heard..." and then provided the new law.  There is plenty of room for this to be consistant with the old law being abolished

From what I recall, wasn't all the old testament crap god or moses's law for the tribes of israel?  If so, why would this have any relevance to christians today?  That's certainly not a popular view, but that's the way I see it.

In any case, the more clear statement that Jesus doesn't necessarily continue the old testament law is pasted below.  As I recall, there is also plenty of refrence to Jesus fulfilling the old law throughout the bible which may mean it is of no effect and the 'new covenant' is what should be followed from then onwards.


Quote:

"And early in the morning He came again into the Temple, and all the people came unto Him; and He sat down, and taught them."

"And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto Him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto Him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the Law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest Thou?"

"This they said, tempting Him, that they might have to accuse Him."

"But Jesus stooped down, and with His finger wrote on the ground, as though He heard them not. So when they continued asking Him, He lifted up Himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again He stooped down, and wrote on the ground."

"And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst."

"When Jesus had lifted up Himself, and saw none but the woman, He said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?"

"She said, No man, Lord."

"And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."


(John 8:2-11 KJV)


This doesn't seem very compatible with a view that the old testament continues in force.  He refrences her acts as sinful, but they were declared such several times in the new testament.  He seems to imply Mosaic law is of no effect, and that is how I read this.  At minimum it is unclear and a pretty piss poor instruction from god, like much of the bible.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: palmersc]
    #13315749 - 10/10/10 12:16 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

unshakable foundation

Poor lad. Your estimation has now attained to that of humanity's during the Middle Ages. "Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny." 
Consider the possibility that you worship a theistic concept, not the Ultimate Reality which is God, which has no human attributes of which a human being can affirm. Even a panentheistic concept (not pantheistic) is superior than the puerility of an Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky theism which belonged to the myth-writers of biblical fame. In the older Chinese culture, the name Tao meant 'The Way.' When Jesus allegedly said "I am the way...," it's the SAME Way, if you had any grasp of what the Chinese meant.  One will never understand what the true meaning of one's religion embodies until one steps outside its mental constructs. Otherwise one will forever be lost - unable to see the whole forest for the trees. Another decade of life in this existence and perhaps you will awaken from the 'Matrix' of mind which confounds and confuses the mythic from the literal. Hopefully a full demythologizing of biblical writ is in your future, and a mature metaphysic will take its place.

The same goes for anyone else who is grasping, white-knuckled, to a religious fantasy - a mentality born of protracted adolescent terror of mortality and death. Late adolescent angst and death anxiety is not the basis of a mature faith. It is juvenile ear-plugging while reciting scriptures so as to block out the voice of reason heard from others. Reason will not destroy faith, but it will destroy childish thinking about matters which utterly transcend reason! Despite one's adherence to scriptural words, penned for reasons you do not understand and mistakenly take for history, the doubt still remains that there is nothing "unshakable."  Delusional thinking (learned delusional thinking) is NOT equivalent to faith. Understand the ancient Jewish liturgical calendar and the meaning of Jewish holidays, and with some guidance, you'll see why the New Testament was written as a fulfillment of the Tenach. Is anybody still able to think for him/herself? Is anybody's faith strong enough to demythologize scriptures without fearing that their faith will be rendered useless by greater Truth? If so:



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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: fivepointer]
    #13315777 - 10/10/10 12:26 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
All who spend an eternity in Hell, DESERVE IT!  Even the saved deserve Hell, they get what they don't deserve GRACE!

There is no injustice in sending people to Hell.  God is the ultimate judge, all His judgments are true and right by definition.  Because you can not comprehend God's standard of righteousness and judgment you make God out to be the unjust one, when you are the unjust one with a perverse right/wrong standard.





:hellfire::doggystyle::pope:

Your POV is really sick. You must have been really badly mistreated as a young child to be filled with such hatred for mankind. I rarely pity any humans but I pity anyone who ends  up thinking like you do.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Icelander]
    #13315929 - 10/10/10 01:22 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

God has given us a conscience.  Our conscience convicts us when we do wrong.  We are in need of cleansing and God has offered to everyone that cleansing and redemption through Christ.  No matter what evil thing you have said or done, He will lovingly forgive you and glorify you and you will stand before God in righteousness through faith, and will see His face.

"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Romans 8:29-30)


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13315934 - 10/10/10 01:24 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Go post that horse shit to someone else.:ass::poop:


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13315952 - 10/10/10 01:29 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ObliviousSeeker said:
We are in need of cleansing and God has offered to everyone that cleansing and redemption through Christ.




That's just nonsense. :snub:


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13316032 - 10/10/10 01:56 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

"ObliviousSeeker"  :lol:  So you know?


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #13316093 - 10/10/10 02:16 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Hey Markos,
 
I cannot get through to you, but there is one who can and does which is why I trust the real work to Him. I testify to His power in my life by words in this forum and by a transformation of character in my day to day relations. He is the way quite literally, and if you knew Him you would know the meaning of that statement. I am not at all threatened by your assumptions about the substance of my faith. It is not the type of faith that must be revived by turning a blind eye to reason, but instead is a gift from God that is upheld by the unshakable Spirit of reason. I see God’s work all around me. It is undeniable to the reasonable mind. We agree there, but you do not know God. That’s the only boast God allows His children to make is that we know Him. I know what is called Christianity in our culture today makes a mockery of the power of God so I can understand the disgust you display and have wrongly assumed true for anybody who takes what is written in Bible at face value. Many people apathetic about the nature of reality happen to call themselves Christians.
 
There is a battle between good and evil. Truth and lies. The nature of this battle is that there is deception. Being convinced of something does not make it true, I agree with you. But I am not convinced in my ability to navigate my way through the lies. I know the One who is the way and will keep me in the way. Not some bearded guy in the sky by any means, haha. God is beyond anything I can conceive. That is the nature of the eternal and infinite, and He has granted to those who will believe an eternity to search out His unending riches and truths. And my faith is strengthened because that communion with the Most High does not begin when I die, but right now. For real, which fills me with joy and peace that surpasses understanding.
 
Deception is what I say to you. Though you have a brilliant mind you are not immune. Other brilliant minds have put forth rational self empowering philosophies that you seem to have latched onto.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: palmersc]
    #13316121 - 10/10/10 02:23 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

:penis: :penis: :penis:


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And never known your face
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Here is true peace
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Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #13316192 - 10/10/10 02:46 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Matthew 5:17-20

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.




Am I reading this wrong? I understand that following this he goes onto revise the 10 commandments right, but this is what I'm confused about I guess.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: totallymyhat]
    #13316260 - 10/10/10 02:59 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Jesus raised the bar and did not do away with the law. He went to the heart of the commandments instead of the superficial surface observance of the law done by the Pharisees.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: palmersc]
    #13316272 - 10/10/10 03:02 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

In a sense he did away with the letter of the law and established the law of the Spirit which can only be fulfilled in the power of the Spirit. Nothing Jesus taught is contrary to the law recorded by Moses though.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: palmersc]
    #13316388 - 10/10/10 03:32 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

palmersc said:
Jesus went to the bar.




--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: palmersc]
    #13316607 - 10/10/10 04:33 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

palmersc said:
Other brilliant minds have put forth rational self empowering philosophies that you seem to have latched onto.




But of course, everything you have latched onto is stuff you thought up yourself.

...right?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: palmersc]
    #13316858 - 10/10/10 05:38 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Ya see, I was where you are 30+ years ago. It is not a matter of intellectual brilliance, it is a matter of human development. Everyone grows older, but not everyone grows up. Wisdom is not a function of age, it is a function of experience and discernment. Discernment of 'spirits,' which is to say 'states of consciousness.' Spirit (Pneuma, Spiritus, Ruach) is an archaic term. It also confounds inner and outer, but whether deemed spirit or consciousness, neither are physical. Neither occupy space-time. Both terms signify a great mystery. So do not tell ME that I am deceived, when you are still stuck in an archaic mode of thought that cannot discern what the word 'spirit' means in a modern, experiential context. Spirit may be described metaphorically  in the Bible as "a rushing wind," but that is only because the Greek word pneuma means both breath/wind as well as a consciousness. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Consciousness that artists the world over have depicted by halos and nimbuses around the heads of holy people. I have 30+ years of inquiry following a formal seminary education from a reputable institution (one which Rev. Spong praised in the preface to his last book, btw).

Are you yet 30 years old? I doubt it. Your ego development is still characteristic of adolescence (regardless of how old you are chronologically), protracted perhaps, but adolescent nevertheless. You have combined the cock-suredness of youth with the bold Pauline attitude, and by aligning yourself with such writings, you have inflated your ego with self-righteousness. Like Icarus, life itself will melt your egoic-wings and you will fall. It is only a matter of time that some major defeat will bring you down, and your disappointment will lead to doubt, disillusionment, and a Dark Night of the Soul. If you heed not what I have just outlined briefly, then just wait and see. If you want to get a better idea of the spiritual path, read St. John of the Cross' Dark Night of the Soul. He was an eminent depth-psychologist before the word psychology was invented. Psyche, the basis of psychology, means mind, soul and butterfly. Butterflies undergo a metamorphosis from a loathsome little earthbound grub to a gloriously colored airborne, hence 'spiritual' creature. Few 'Christians' ever attain to true spiritual status. They have no Holy Consciousness/Holy Spirit, only strictly human, animal-soul attributes of judgement, vengeance, cruelty, and lust (often repressed into self-hatred and projection onto others). Be careful who YOU judge. Take care not to judge at all, because that task is reserved for God, not for Christians. Christians are bid to love. Period. Where have YOU been? Feel free to shake the virtual dust off yourself from exposure to my perspective, but that means do not revisit my virtual place again. Go where your perspective is welcomed, as the Bible says so literally. Don't bother to respond to me again with your ego-inflated self-righteous parroting, else you will be practicing the hypocrisy that has so characterized the multitudes of Christian wannabees. Very very few Christians have I met in my lifetime, because it means being a Christ, and as is evident from this forum alone, it is easier to be human and judge than it is to be divine and forgive.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #13317031 - 10/10/10 06:28 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Mark, I forgive you.  I forgive you for being a slave to a 2000 year old fairy tale and not having the rational mind to think your way out of it.

I wish you luck, but I think you may need more than that.

FF


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Fungy Fipps]
    #13317106 - 10/10/10 06:46 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Forgiveness is the sign of an evolved being.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #13317194 - 10/10/10 07:05 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Markos,

This is a public forum but I will not again address you in particular if you do not wish to discuss the faith. Discussions such as these have made way for a few PMs so I say something every now and then. Not often.

Yes, love is the most excellent way. My walk is to be more like Jesus, to reflect the love the Lord has poured into me as I strive to walk in the way. An impossible task for mere flesh, but God has made a way, and it is a reality in my life as I see my desires and tendencies drawn to my Lord's. Though it be drop in the infinite bucket God has given me access to in Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

I pray to have the confidence of young David as he grabbed a few stones and went off to battle trusting the Lord. I am young, only 25, and I know the Lord is breaking me slowly of my over inflated self. My intentions are not to point to myself but to Jesus. I'm in a battle that has already been won by Jesus, and when tough times come I will cling to the cross and if I lose my grip He will not let me go.

I believe you to be heading in the wrong direction no matter how established in these 30 years. I have had a few glimpses of the divine and while I am still near the trailhead, your position is not on the map sir. God help us both.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: palmersc]
    #13317468 - 10/10/10 08:17 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

your position is not on the map sir

Look up, I'm above your path watching it from the Eternal Now. You're the one who is lost friend -  trapped in time, history, and mostly, your egoic-mind.

...You've been reading it without living it
Now that's the golden prison we can always find
Living in stories, and living in books
Or we can live and leave all the stories behind...
- Play On Love,  Jefferson Starship

Fare thee well, but harm ye none.  :bye:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Fungy Fipps]
    #13317503 - 10/10/10 08:23 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Fungy Fipps said:
Mark, I forgive you.  I forgive you for being a slave to a 2000 year old fairy tale and not having the rational mind to think your way out of it.

I wish you luck, but I think you may need more than that.

FF




I think you've gone and confused the fuzzy dice on your rear view mirror with the plastic Jesus on the dashboard. Pick a metaphysic please, but only one. Simplicity will help you sort out your confusion.
Educate yourself first before you try to school an elder. Otherwise you'll look completely foolish on a public forum. Myth is a different order of archetype than a fairytale, folklore, or dreams. Since you don't know one from another, or whence they come...Shhhhhhh  :shoosh: 


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (10/10/10 08:29 PM)


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OfflineObliviousSeeker
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #13317891 - 10/10/10 09:46 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

John Shelby Spong comes from a very liberal position of scholarship regarding the bible.  He has stated in public debate "I do not believe the bible to be the Word of God."  So that wouldn't exactly jive well with conservative, biblical Christian scholarship which you'll find with theologians such as John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, B.B. Warfield, R.C. Sproul, etc.  There is harmony throughout the bible from beginning to end, clearly seen by all willing to look at it from a position of honesty and a hunger for truth.

"Spong on Paul" -


More of Spong in debate with James White -


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13317903 - 10/10/10 09:49 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ObliviousSeeker said:
JThere is harmony throughout the bible from beginning to end, clearly seen by all willing to look at it from a position of honesty and a hunger for truth.




How can one be sure that is their true vantage point?


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #13317976 - 10/10/10 10:08 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

The middle east has produced two of the most stupid and malevolent religions on earth imo. Along with the most idiotic half wit and warlike followers to be found anywhere. If it's not killing the infidels its sending the non believers to hell. :satansmoking:

Too bad it's not up to me what to do with them all.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #13318011 - 10/10/10 10:13 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Quote:

ObliviousSeeker said:
JThere is harmony throughout the bible from beginning to end, clearly seen by all willing to look at it from a position of honesty and a hunger for truth.




How can one be sure that is their true vantage point?




By examining the differing perspectives offered by individuals involved in such scholarship, studying debates between scholars on these subjects and most importantly taking the time to read the bible for yourself and see which side accurately represents what the text says in context using sound hermeneutic and exegetical principles.  This effort is necessary to discern what side is giving you an honest presentation and it definitely requires owning a bible for yourself and studying it.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13318152 - 10/10/10 10:40 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing

I don't intend any disrespect, but man this smacks of the brown nose at work who praises the boss loud enough for him to hear, all the while facing away from him to make the boss think the praise is genuine. Like you're trying to score brownie points with god to make sure you get a train ticket to heaven when you die. :shrug:

If you really believe this stuff, why do you find it necessary to tell people?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Diploid]
    #13318239 - 10/10/10 10:59 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing

I don't intend any disrespect, but man this smacks of the brown nose at work who praises the boss loud enough for him to hear, all the while facing away from him to make the boss think the praise is genuine. Like you're trying to score brownie points with got to make sure you get a train ticket to heaven when you die. :shrug:

If you really believe this stuff, why do you find it necessary to tell people?




I appreciate your courtesy and your inquiry.  The answer is simple: the bible tells us to "Speak the truth in love" as well as to "preach the gospel to every creature", "Make disciples of all the nations.", "Be ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within you."  Many people have never heard the gospel preached in its fullness and often get hold of a lot of bad information regarding Christianity in general.  God knows the heart and if one's intentions are not good there will certainly not be any reward given from the Lord in eternity.  Moreover, the assurance of our salvation is found in Christ and only in Christ.  Any effort on my part is not sufficient to secure my position in God's kingdom; it is Christ's work on the cross that is sufficient for everyone willing to believe in His name.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13318286 - 10/10/10 11:10 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Why do you believe what the Bible says? :lol:


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13318451 - 10/10/10 11:56 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

he answer is simple: the bible tells us to

There are dozens maybe hundreds of other god books. Most don't say any such thing.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: NetDiver]
    #13318459 - 10/10/10 11:58 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Ok so can we agree the bible is cool with me owning slaves now? As long as I don't beat them in the mouth or the eyes. I've still yet to hear how one reconciles Leviticus seeing as there's "harmony from beginning to end."


--------------------
"When we are dead seek not our tomb in the earth, but find it in the hearts of men."  -Rumi


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: totallymyhat]
    #13318584 - 10/11/10 12:35 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

totallymyhat said:
Ok so can we agree the bible is cool with me owning slaves now? As long as I don't beat them in the mouth or the eyes. I've still yet to hear how one reconciles Leviticus seeing as there's "harmony from beginning to end."




The bible addresses slavery in the context of the middle east 2,000+ years ago.  During that time Jews were not "enslaving" other people like blacks from West Africa were enslaved.  People willingly became "bondservants" to others.  They did this because they had debts they could not pay and therefore became bondservants to their debtor.  This is how the economy functioned in that context.  God gave commands regarding the treatment of bondservants in Leviticus. 

To say that the bible endorses slavery as we think of slavery is completely off the beam.  This is why studying the bible honestly with historical context in mind, especially when studying the Old Testament, is essential.  Otherwise people just go around saying "the bible condones slavery", when in fact every seven years in ancient Israel God instituted a Sabbatical year in which all debts were forgiven and nobody was to work for an entire year.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13318633 - 10/11/10 12:54 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

To say that the bible endorses slavery as we think of slavery is completely off the beam.

No it's not. The bible is very clear on this:

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. (Exodus 21:7-11)


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Diploid]
    #13318739 - 10/11/10 01:21 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Understanding context is really important because this is a complicated issue.  This is an issue exclusively of the Jews in ancient Israel.  People in poverty had the option to sell their daughters for money, often giving them an opportunity for a better life than what they would currently have.  To get married and improve their standard of living, not diminish it.  Just by reading it we see that there are strict conditions in the situation so as to keep the practice totally humane and not abusive in any way.  This is nothing like going to a neighboring country, killing all the men and taking their boys and women as slaves to rape and beat and use for hard labor.  Context, context, context.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13318763 - 10/11/10 01:26 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Context, context, context.




Missing, missing, missing.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13318780 - 10/11/10 01:31 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Context? Are you serious? That's such a patent rationalization, it's really kinda hilarious.

Lemme see if I have this right. Someone is too poor to feed his children, but he had a baby girl anyway. Then, to give his daughter a better life, he sells her to some stranger. But the servitude is not even temporary for six years like it is for male slaves but for life. And you call that a "better life"? The father should have bashed her head in. That would be a better life than a state of continual rape.

Man, again no disrespect at you but your god is a sadistic flaming asshole, and context has nothing to do with it.

I can't believe you're sitting there defending that. :confused:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Diploid]
    #13318857 - 10/11/10 01:49 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

I believe as far as the African slave trade went, whites purchased slaves from tribal leaders. Or is this out of context? Anyway, the bible lays out a humane way of selling your daughter? Good to know.


--------------------
"When we are dead seek not our tomb in the earth, but find it in the hearts of men."  -Rumi


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: fivepointer]
    #13318877 - 10/11/10 01:56 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Because you can not comprehend God's standard of righteousness and judgment

But you do, right? Because you spout it here all the time. :dumblol:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13319334 - 10/11/10 04:46 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ObliviousSeeker said:
Context, context, context.




Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Seems to be a pretty flawed and relatively pointless doctrine without any kind of credible basis. :shrug:




--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13319511 - 10/11/10 07:36 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

I'm a 'Spongian' from beginning to end. Read Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes, then get back to me. I've read Edwards and Calvin among others. No joy in them. Pathological in their Matthewian hell-fire trip as far as I'm concerned. All scriptures the world over are considered to be revelatory, the word of God. If you think Christian writings are unique, then you too are lodged in an egocentric and hence pre-adolescent world view. Everyone grows older, growing up is optional.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineObliviousSeeker
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Diploid]
    #13319965 - 10/11/10 11:51 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Context? Are you serious? That's such a patent rationalization, it's really kinda hilarious.

Lemme see if I have this right. Someone is too poor to feed his children, but he had a baby girl anyway. Then, to give his daughter a better life, he sells her to some stranger. But the servitude is not even temporary for six years like it is for male slaves but for life. And you call that a "better life"? The father should have bashed her head in. That would be a better life than a state of continual rape.

Man, again no disrespect at you but your god is a sadistic flaming asshole, and context has nothing to do with it.

I can't believe you're sitting there defending that. :confused:




Think about this a little bit and you'll realize this isn't a heinous act of inhumane abuse like people just assume it is because the word slave is involved. 

1) Only a poor person would sell their children
2) Poor people can't provide for their children so selling them to a prosperous person would give them a better life
3) This practice was done within the Jewish state of Israel.  They're not selling their daughters to just strangers who want to rape women all day.  They're selling them to their own Jewish brethren who have much more wealth and need people to work for them.
4) The new servants are provided for and get to improve their standards of living.
5) As for the maidservants, if they get married to their owners son they are no longer to be considered maidservants but rather as daughters
6) It's not like they never see their children again.  These people are all Jews they aren't going to treat each other like jerks.


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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13320078 - 10/11/10 12:28 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Man, I can't even respond to that. :sad:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Diploid]
    #13320089 - 10/11/10 12:32 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

:lol: When you gotta believe you'll find a way. Hasn't that been proven here on a daily basis.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinetotallymyhat
Dr. Mr. Mrs. Prof. Skulhed Face
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Registered: 09/11/10
Posts: 93
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Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Icelander]
    #13320736 - 10/11/10 03:01 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

So it's cool then if I have a daughter and sell her for money, as long as their like-minded folk? Got it. Now onto homosexuality, how does the one true god justify persecuting people who go to extraordinary lengths for the sake of experiencing the love he created? I'm sure it's humane. What about commanding his followers to kill people, especially relatives, that don't believe in his love?


Quote:

Icelander said:
:lol: When you gotta believe you'll find a way. Hasn't that been proven here on a daily basis.




Precisely.


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"When we are dead seek not our tomb in the earth, but find it in the hearts of men."  -Rumi


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker] * 1
    #13321313 - 10/11/10 04:58 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Dear ObliviousSeeker,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's word. I have learned a great deal from you, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific parts of His word and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? -Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan, Dip.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineNetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
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Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Diploid]
    #13322362 - 10/11/10 08:41 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

That looks... familiar. :strokebeard:


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Offlineandrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,722
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: NetDiver]
    #13322427 - 10/11/10 08:55 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

this thread is 

:hmm:


:freshwtf:



:FattyNoneck:


:nyd:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: NetDiver]
    #13322688 - 10/11/10 10:02 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

It's well known satire. :monkeydance:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineNetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: andrewss]
    #13323211 - 10/11/10 11:33 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

andrewss said:
this thread is 

:hmm:


:freshwtf:



:FattyNoneck:


:nyd:



You forgot :braindamage:


--------------------


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