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 palmersc
Stranger
Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 425
Loc: Arkansas
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
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 Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long)  [Re: totallymyhat]
#13316260 - 10/10/10 12:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Jesus raised the bar and did not do away with the law. He went to the heart of the commandments instead of the superficial surface observance of the law done by the Pharisees.
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palmersc
Stranger
Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 425
Loc: Arkansas
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: palmersc]
#13316272 - 10/10/10 01:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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In a sense he did away with the letter of the law and established the law of the Spirit which can only be fulfilled in the power of the Spirit. Nothing Jesus taught is contrary to the law recorded by Moses though.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: palmersc]
#13316388 - 10/10/10 01:32 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
palmersc said:
Jesus went to the bar.
--------------------
    
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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 Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: palmersc]
#13316607 - 10/10/10 02:33 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
palmersc said:
Other brilliant minds have put forth rational self empowering philosophies that you seem to have latched onto.
But of course, everything you have latched onto is stuff you thought up yourself.
...right?
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida 
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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 Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: palmersc]
#13316858 - 10/10/10 03:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ya see, I was where you are 30+ years ago. It is not a matter of intellectual brilliance, it is a matter of human development. Everyone grows older, but not everyone grows up. Wisdom is not a function of age, it is a function of experience and discernment. Discernment of 'spirits,' which is to say 'states of consciousness.' Spirit (Pneuma, Spiritus, Ruach) is an archaic term. It also confounds inner and outer, but whether deemed spirit or consciousness, neither are physical. Neither occupy space-time. Both terms signify a great mystery. So do not tell ME that I am deceived, when you are still stuck in an archaic mode of thought that cannot discern what the word 'spirit' means in a modern, experiential context. Spirit may be described metaphorically in the Bible as "a rushing wind," but that is only because the Greek word pneuma means both breath/wind as well as a consciousness. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Consciousness that artists the world over have depicted by halos and nimbuses around the heads of holy people. I have 30+ years of inquiry following a formal seminary education from a reputable institution (one which Rev. Spong praised in the preface to his last book, btw).
Are you yet 30 years old? I doubt it. Your ego development is still characteristic of adolescence (regardless of how old you are chronologically), protracted perhaps, but adolescent nevertheless. You have combined the cock-suredness of youth with the bold Pauline attitude, and by aligning yourself with such writings, you have inflated your ego with self-righteousness. Like Icarus, life itself will melt your egoic-wings and you will fall. It is only a matter of time that some major defeat will bring you down, and your disappointment will lead to doubt, disillusionment, and a Dark Night of the Soul. If you heed not what I have just outlined briefly, then just wait and see. If you want to get a better idea of the spiritual path, read St. John of the Cross' Dark Night of the Soul. He was an eminent depth-psychologist before the word psychology was invented. Psyche, the basis of psychology, means mind, soul and butterfly. Butterflies undergo a metamorphosis from a loathsome little earthbound grub to a gloriously colored airborne, hence 'spiritual' creature. Few 'Christians' ever attain to true spiritual status. They have no Holy Consciousness/Holy Spirit, only strictly human, animal-soul attributes of judgement, vengeance, cruelty, and lust (often repressed into self-hatred and projection onto others). Be careful who YOU judge. Take care not to judge at all, because that task is reserved for God, not for Christians. Christians are bid to love. Period. Where have YOU been? Feel free to shake the virtual dust off yourself from exposure to my perspective, but that means do not revisit my virtual place again. Go where your perspective is welcomed, as the Bible says so literally. Don't bother to respond to me again with your ego-inflated self-righteous parroting, else you will be practicing the hypocrisy that has so characterized the multitudes of Christian wannabees. Very very few Christians have I met in my lifetime, because it means being a Christ, and as is evident from this forum alone, it is easier to be human and judge than it is to be divine and forgive.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Fungy Fipps
Stranger than Science
Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 103
Loc:
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#13317031 - 10/10/10 04:28 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Mark, I forgive you. I forgive you for being a slave to a 2000 year old fairy tale and not having the rational mind to think your way out of it.
I wish you luck, but I think you may need more than that.
FF
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Fungy Fipps]
#13317106 - 10/10/10 04:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Forgiveness is the sign of an evolved being.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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palmersc
Stranger
Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 425
Loc: Arkansas
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#13317194 - 10/10/10 05:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Markos,
This is a public forum but I will not again address you in particular if you do not wish to discuss the faith. Discussions such as these have made way for a few PMs so I say something every now and then. Not often.
Yes, love is the most excellent way. My walk is to be more like Jesus, to reflect the love the Lord has poured into me as I strive to walk in the way. An impossible task for mere flesh, but God has made a way, and it is a reality in my life as I see my desires and tendencies drawn to my Lord's. Though it be drop in the infinite bucket God has given me access to in Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
I pray to have the confidence of young David as he grabbed a few stones and went off to battle trusting the Lord. I am young, only 25, and I know the Lord is breaking me slowly of my over inflated self. My intentions are not to point to myself but to Jesus. I'm in a battle that has already been won by Jesus, and when tough times come I will cling to the cross and if I lose my grip He will not let me go.
I believe you to be heading in the wrong direction no matter how established in these 30 years. I have had a few glimpses of the divine and while I am still near the trailhead, your position is not on the map sir. God help us both.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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 Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: palmersc]
#13317468 - 10/10/10 06:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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your position is not on the map sir
Look up, I'm above your path watching it from the Eternal Now. You're the one who is lost friend - trapped in time, history, and mostly, your egoic-mind.
...You've been reading it without living it
Now that's the golden prison we can always find
Living in stories, and living in books
Or we can live and leave all the stories behind...
- Play On Love, Jefferson Starship
Fare thee well, but harm ye none. 
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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 Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Fungy Fipps]
#13317503 - 10/10/10 06:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fungy Fipps said:
Mark, I forgive you. I forgive you for being a slave to a 2000 year old fairy tale and not having the rational mind to think your way out of it.
I wish you luck, but I think you may need more than that.
FF
I think you've gone and confused the fuzzy dice on your rear view mirror with the plastic Jesus on the dashboard. Pick a metaphysic please, but only one. Simplicity will help you sort out your confusion.
Educate yourself first before you try to school an elder. Otherwise you'll look completely foolish on a public forum. Myth is a different order of archetype than a fairytale, folklore, or dreams. Since you don't know one from another, or whence they come...Shhhhhhh 
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (10/10/10 06:29 PM)
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ObliviousSeeker
Stranger
Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 198
Last seen: 10 months, 3 days
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#13317891 - 10/10/10 07:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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John Shelby Spong comes from a very liberal position of scholarship regarding the bible. He has stated in public debate "I do not believe the bible to be the Word of God." So that wouldn't exactly jive well with conservative, biblical Christian scholarship which you'll find with theologians such as John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, B.B. Warfield, R.C. Sproul, etc. There is harmony throughout the bible from beginning to end, clearly seen by all willing to look at it from a position of honesty and a hunger for truth.
"Spong on Paul" -
More of Spong in debate with James White -
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
#13317903 - 10/10/10 07:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
ObliviousSeeker said:
JThere is harmony throughout the bible from beginning to end, clearly seen by all willing to look at it from a position of honesty and a hunger for truth.
How can one be sure that is their true vantage point?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Sleepwalker]
#13317976 - 10/10/10 08:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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The middle east has produced two of the most stupid and malevolent religions on earth imo. Along with the most idiotic half wit and warlike followers to be found anywhere. If it's not killing the infidels its sending the non believers to hell. 
Too bad it's not up to me what to do with them all.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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ObliviousSeeker
Stranger
Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 198
Last seen: 10 months, 3 days
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Sleepwalker]
#13318011 - 10/10/10 08:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Oweyervishice said:
Quote:
ObliviousSeeker said:
JThere is harmony throughout the bible from beginning to end, clearly seen by all willing to look at it from a position of honesty and a hunger for truth.
How can one be sure that is their true vantage point?
By examining the differing perspectives offered by individuals involved in such scholarship, studying debates between scholars on these subjects and most importantly taking the time to read the bible for yourself and see which side accurately represents what the text says in context using sound hermeneutic and exegetical principles. This effort is necessary to discern what side is giving you an honest presentation and it definitely requires owning a bible for yourself and studying it.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
#13318152 - 10/10/10 08:40 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing
I don't intend any disrespect, but man this smacks of the brown nose at work who praises the boss loud enough for him to hear, all the while facing away from him to make the boss think the praise is genuine. Like you're trying to score brownie points with god to make sure you get a train ticket to heaven when you die. 
If you really believe this stuff, why do you find it necessary to tell people?
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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ObliviousSeeker
Stranger
Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 198
Last seen: 10 months, 3 days
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Diploid]
#13318239 - 10/10/10 08:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing
I don't intend any disrespect, but man this smacks of the brown nose at work who praises the boss loud enough for him to hear, all the while facing away from him to make the boss think the praise is genuine. Like you're trying to score brownie points with got to make sure you get a train ticket to heaven when you die.
If you really believe this stuff, why do you find it necessary to tell people?
I appreciate your courtesy and your inquiry. The answer is simple: the bible tells us to "Speak the truth in love" as well as to "preach the gospel to every creature", "Make disciples of all the nations.", "Be ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within you." Many people have never heard the gospel preached in its fullness and often get hold of a lot of bad information regarding Christianity in general. God knows the heart and if one's intentions are not good there will certainly not be any reward given from the Lord in eternity. Moreover, the assurance of our salvation is found in Christ and only in Christ. Any effort on my part is not sufficient to secure my position in God's kingdom; it is Christ's work on the cross that is sufficient for everyone willing to believe in His name.
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 10 months, 16 days
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
#13318286 - 10/10/10 09:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why do you believe what the Bible says?
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
#13318451 - 10/10/10 09:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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he answer is simple: the bible tells us to
There are dozens maybe hundreds of other god books. Most don't say any such thing.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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totallymyhat
Dr. Mr. Mrs. Prof. Skulhed Face
Registered: 09/11/10
Posts: 93
Loc:
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: NetDiver]
#13318459 - 10/10/10 09:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ok so can we agree the bible is cool with me owning slaves now? As long as I don't beat them in the mouth or the eyes. I've still yet to hear how one reconciles Leviticus seeing as there's "harmony from beginning to end."
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"When we are dead seek not our tomb in the earth, but find it in the hearts of men." -Rumi
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ObliviousSeeker
Stranger
Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 198
Last seen: 10 months, 3 days
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: totallymyhat]
#13318584 - 10/10/10 10:35 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
totallymyhat said:
Ok so can we agree the bible is cool with me owning slaves now? As long as I don't beat them in the mouth or the eyes. I've still yet to hear how one reconciles Leviticus seeing as there's "harmony from beginning to end."
The bible addresses slavery in the context of the middle east 2,000+ years ago. During that time Jews were not "enslaving" other people like blacks from West Africa were enslaved. People willingly became "bondservants" to others. They did this because they had debts they could not pay and therefore became bondservants to their debtor. This is how the economy functioned in that context. God gave commands regarding the treatment of bondservants in Leviticus.
To say that the bible endorses slavery as we think of slavery is completely off the beam. This is why studying the bible honestly with historical context in mind, especially when studying the Old Testament, is essential. Otherwise people just go around saying "the bible condones slavery", when in fact every seven years in ancient Israel God instituted a Sabbatical year in which all debts were forgiven and nobody was to work for an entire year.
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