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Offlinetotallymyhat
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: fivepointer]
    #13314806 - 10/10/10 02:03 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
All who spend an eternity in Hell, DESERVE IT!  Even the saved deserve Hell, they get what they don't deserve GRACE!

There is no injustice in sending people to Hell.  God is the ultimate judge, all His judgments are true and right by definition.  Because you can not comprehend God's standard of righteousness and judgment you make God out to be the unjust one, when you are the unjust one with a perverse right/wrong standard.




I don't believe I've stated what morals I adhere to. It was a simple question, if God is infinitely loving, why did he create people he knew he would send to hell and suffer? I assume the counter to this one will be the old "mysterious ways" clause. However if God is so mysterious and works in ways we cannot fathom, why is he so specific on things like abortion, homosexuality, masturbation, slave owning, etc?. It can't be both mysterious on one hand and perfectly explainable on the other. Still, this is all assuming someone invokes the mysterious ways catch-all.


--------------------
"When we are dead seek not our tomb in the earth, but find it in the hearts of men."  -Rumi


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: totallymyhat]
    #13315423 - 10/10/10 09:25 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

totallymyhat said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
All who spend an eternity in Hell, DESERVE IT!  Even the saved deserve Hell, they get what they don't deserve GRACE!

There is no injustice in sending people to Hell.  God is the ultimate judge, all His judgments are true and right by definition.  Because you can not comprehend God's standard of righteousness and judgment you make God out to be the unjust one, when you are the unjust one with a perverse right/wrong standard.




I don't believe I've stated what morals I adhere to. It was a simple question, if God is infinitely loving, why did he create people he knew he would send to hell and suffer? I assume the counter to this one will be the old "mysterious ways" clause. However if God is so mysterious and works in ways we cannot fathom, why is he so specific on things like abortion, homosexuality, masturbation, slave owning, etc?. It can't be both mysterious on one hand and perfectly explainable on the other. Still, this is all assuming someone invokes the mysterious ways catch-all.



The reprobate serve the purpose of demonstrating God's righteousness and justice.  The elect demonstrate God's love and mercy.  Both serve God's purpose, the glorification of who God is. 

Contrary to popular opinion of today, the reprobate are NEVER loved by God.  They are vessels fitted for destruction.  Only the elect are loved from eternity past to eternity future.  Many verses show how God hardens the reprobate.


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Offlinetotallymyhat
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: fivepointer]
    #13315432 - 10/10/10 09:34 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Right, this is my point. I'm not questioning whether god does or doesn't love a certain group. God created people for no other purpose than to torture them. Graceful.


--------------------
"When we are dead seek not our tomb in the earth, but find it in the hearts of men."  -Rumi


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: totallymyhat]
    #13315462 - 10/10/10 10:10 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

totallymyhat said:
Right, this is my point. I'm not questioning whether god does or doesn't love a certain group. God created people for no other purpose than to torture them. Graceful.



They are not meant to demonstrate grace, only justice.  Again you concentrate on the punishment, not the justice.  The punishment is FAIR and JUST, it just seems harsh and unjust because people do not understand God's standard of righteousness.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #13315480 - 10/10/10 10:29 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Smelly poop.





BIG Smelly poop.

Do I have to ignore yet another bigot. Christians, so-called, haven't the slightest clue that the gospels were written by and for Jewish Christians as liturgy for their new practices according to the Jewish calendar of holy days.
Augustine concocted Original Sin to make the church-controlled sacraments absolutely necessary for 'salvation,' since Christ was infused by the sacraments. Jesus would've held to Jewish theology of a Good and Evil Intention (Yetzer Tov and Yetzer Hara), not total depravity. This is a perverse doctrine. The legitimate Christian notions are from Jewish sources, the Hellenized aspects (like 'Incarnation' of God through a woman) is pure Greek mythology. That is why most Jews didn't accept the later Christian doctrines. They had their own mythology, and didn't want to go Greek. Besides mythology (which is sacred in its own right), there is metaphor and midrash, and metaphysics. Reading biblical material as literal or historical is delusional or puerile. Period. In either case, ignorance rules, and if it's delusional adults, they tend to be fanatical and dangerous. There is nothing Christ-like about any 'Christian' who does not simply love, but who judges and condemns others.



Total Depravity is not based on Augustine, it is based on scripture.  Scripture is the sole authority of all doctrine, not Augustine, not Spong.  You have to throw out scripture to throw out Total Depravity.  It is apparent you have already thrown out scripture as the Word of God.  It is delusional or puerile to call yourself a Christian and throw out the very foundation of the faith, the Bible.  Spongites follow Spong and despise the Word of God, and all the doctrines of the faith.  Spongites need to repent and believe the true gospel, not the fantasies of a deluded man.


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OfflineFungy Fipps
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: fivepointer]
    #13315512 - 10/10/10 10:55 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Another fine, graceful Christian that justifies an injustice through scripture.  I'm sure similar conversations occurred just prior to the Salem Witch Trials, the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition.  "We'll just torture them till they denounce witchcraft and accept Christ as their loving savior."  LOL

FF


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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: fivepointer]
    #13315572 - 10/10/10 11:19 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

I am a Christian and do agree with the theology in the original post mostly. They are beautiful truths to one who has been touched by God and been given new life. Though they are man trying to put God into a box. They are useful points, but anybody who has studied the Bible knows there are difficult passages that seemingly contradict another. Some of Calvinism focuses on one aspect of God's truths and ignores others to make neat and tidy theology.

Fivepointer, dude come on. Your attitude here is not like Christ's. We do not see Jesus condescendingly spouting out truth and exhibiting the pride that you seem to have. It disturbs me that you display no compassion for those who do not know God. Jesus did not say follow me, but only if you are elect. For God so loved the WORLD that He sent his Son. The Lord is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

God has love for every one of us. He is not well pleased with any of His servants except Christ and by grace those whose trust is in Him. Our hope is in Him alone and though you know that, do not forget it while holding your theology so high in your mind. To call men like Spurgeon and Wesley lost is ridiculous. Though the gate and way that lead to life are narrow, you seem to think it is exclusive to a certain elite who know something, not those who ARE something. Jesus said we would be known by our love. You display an immaturity in your application of these great truths. They set me free and while I will not compromise the gospel, I do not think it wise to focus on aspects of the Scipture that are difficult even for those who follow the Lord to grasp. Predestination is true but so is free will. Explain that. Don't get too heavy on one side. God is completely sovereign and He has given us a will of our own.

It is awesome to hear from another in the original post who has navigated out of psychedelic confusion and been established on the only unshakable foundation.


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: palmersc]
    #13315605 - 10/10/10 11:31 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

palmersc said:
the only unshakable foundation.




How would you know?


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Offlinetotallymyhat
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #13315625 - 10/10/10 11:39 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

So the answer to the question is God isn't about love, but justice? He created people he knew would suffer for the sake of justice? Got it.


--------------------
"When we are dead seek not our tomb in the earth, but find it in the hearts of men."  -Rumi


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OfflineFungy Fipps
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: totallymyhat]
    #13315676 - 10/10/10 11:54 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

The point with ALL religions is that nobody knows.  There are no established facts.  Religion is by definition based on faith in something unprovable.  Nobody knows if they are right till they are dead.  Those that do proclaim to know for a fact are deluding themselves (edit: or trying to separate you from your wallet).  They do not allow themselves to admit that because it would disturb the foundation of their faith. They cannot allow themselves to doubt.

I have faith that it's all bunk. I don't KNOW because I haven't died yet.  Neither does anyone else typing in this forum, and that includes the Pope in Rome or that fellow in Atlanta that's been accused of porking the teenage boys in his group.

FF


Edited by Fungy Fipps (10/10/10 12:23 PM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: totallymyhat]
    #13315696 - 10/10/10 11:59 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

totallymyhat said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Of course, the nutters still like to quote it to condemn homosexuality and whatnot, but if your just going off the text and ignoring the teachings of the various jesus clubs, it does seem fair to ignore the old testiment's laws- at least those Mosses and friends made




Granted, but I thought Jesus endorsed the old testament? Like in early Matthew?





You referring to the 'you have heard x, but I say unto you y' thing in the sermon on the mount?  Basically I just take that at its word.  Jesus clearly changed the law, so it is not indellible, and I don't recall any clear statement that the law continues.  Moreover, he didn't clearly say or imply that the old law was even valid, all he said was "you heard..." and then provided the new law.  There is plenty of room for this to be consistant with the old law being abolished

From what I recall, wasn't all the old testament crap god or moses's law for the tribes of israel?  If so, why would this have any relevance to christians today?  That's certainly not a popular view, but that's the way I see it.

In any case, the more clear statement that Jesus doesn't necessarily continue the old testament law is pasted below.  As I recall, there is also plenty of refrence to Jesus fulfilling the old law throughout the bible which may mean it is of no effect and the 'new covenant' is what should be followed from then onwards.


Quote:

"And early in the morning He came again into the Temple, and all the people came unto Him; and He sat down, and taught them."

"And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto Him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto Him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the Law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest Thou?"

"This they said, tempting Him, that they might have to accuse Him."

"But Jesus stooped down, and with His finger wrote on the ground, as though He heard them not. So when they continued asking Him, He lifted up Himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again He stooped down, and wrote on the ground."

"And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst."

"When Jesus had lifted up Himself, and saw none but the woman, He said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?"

"She said, No man, Lord."

"And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."


(John 8:2-11 KJV)


This doesn't seem very compatible with a view that the old testament continues in force.  He refrences her acts as sinful, but they were declared such several times in the new testament.  He seems to imply Mosaic law is of no effect, and that is how I read this.  At minimum it is unclear and a pretty piss poor instruction from god, like much of the bible.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: palmersc]
    #13315749 - 10/10/10 12:16 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

unshakable foundation

Poor lad. Your estimation has now attained to that of humanity's during the Middle Ages. "Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny." 
Consider the possibility that you worship a theistic concept, not the Ultimate Reality which is God, which has no human attributes of which a human being can affirm. Even a panentheistic concept (not pantheistic) is superior than the puerility of an Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky theism which belonged to the myth-writers of biblical fame. In the older Chinese culture, the name Tao meant 'The Way.' When Jesus allegedly said "I am the way...," it's the SAME Way, if you had any grasp of what the Chinese meant.  One will never understand what the true meaning of one's religion embodies until one steps outside its mental constructs. Otherwise one will forever be lost - unable to see the whole forest for the trees. Another decade of life in this existence and perhaps you will awaken from the 'Matrix' of mind which confounds and confuses the mythic from the literal. Hopefully a full demythologizing of biblical writ is in your future, and a mature metaphysic will take its place.

The same goes for anyone else who is grasping, white-knuckled, to a religious fantasy - a mentality born of protracted adolescent terror of mortality and death. Late adolescent angst and death anxiety is not the basis of a mature faith. It is juvenile ear-plugging while reciting scriptures so as to block out the voice of reason heard from others. Reason will not destroy faith, but it will destroy childish thinking about matters which utterly transcend reason! Despite one's adherence to scriptural words, penned for reasons you do not understand and mistakenly take for history, the doubt still remains that there is nothing "unshakable."  Delusional thinking (learned delusional thinking) is NOT equivalent to faith. Understand the ancient Jewish liturgical calendar and the meaning of Jewish holidays, and with some guidance, you'll see why the New Testament was written as a fulfillment of the Tenach. Is anybody still able to think for him/herself? Is anybody's faith strong enough to demythologize scriptures without fearing that their faith will be rendered useless by greater Truth? If so:



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: fivepointer]
    #13315777 - 10/10/10 12:26 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
All who spend an eternity in Hell, DESERVE IT!  Even the saved deserve Hell, they get what they don't deserve GRACE!

There is no injustice in sending people to Hell.  God is the ultimate judge, all His judgments are true and right by definition.  Because you can not comprehend God's standard of righteousness and judgment you make God out to be the unjust one, when you are the unjust one with a perverse right/wrong standard.





:hellfire::doggystyle::pope:

Your POV is really sick. You must have been really badly mistreated as a young child to be filled with such hatred for mankind. I rarely pity any humans but I pity anyone who ends  up thinking like you do.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineObliviousSeeker
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: Icelander]
    #13315929 - 10/10/10 01:22 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

God has given us a conscience.  Our conscience convicts us when we do wrong.  We are in need of cleansing and God has offered to everyone that cleansing and redemption through Christ.  No matter what evil thing you have said or done, He will lovingly forgive you and glorify you and you will stand before God in righteousness through faith, and will see His face.

"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Romans 8:29-30)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13315934 - 10/10/10 01:24 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Go post that horse shit to someone else.:ass::poop:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13315952 - 10/10/10 01:29 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ObliviousSeeker said:
We are in need of cleansing and God has offered to everyone that cleansing and redemption through Christ.




That's just nonsense. :snub:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #13316032 - 10/10/10 01:56 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

"ObliviousSeeker"  :lol:  So you know?


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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #13316093 - 10/10/10 02:16 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Hey Markos,
 
I cannot get through to you, but there is one who can and does which is why I trust the real work to Him. I testify to His power in my life by words in this forum and by a transformation of character in my day to day relations. He is the way quite literally, and if you knew Him you would know the meaning of that statement. I am not at all threatened by your assumptions about the substance of my faith. It is not the type of faith that must be revived by turning a blind eye to reason, but instead is a gift from God that is upheld by the unshakable Spirit of reason. I see God’s work all around me. It is undeniable to the reasonable mind. We agree there, but you do not know God. That’s the only boast God allows His children to make is that we know Him. I know what is called Christianity in our culture today makes a mockery of the power of God so I can understand the disgust you display and have wrongly assumed true for anybody who takes what is written in Bible at face value. Many people apathetic about the nature of reality happen to call themselves Christians.
 
There is a battle between good and evil. Truth and lies. The nature of this battle is that there is deception. Being convinced of something does not make it true, I agree with you. But I am not convinced in my ability to navigate my way through the lies. I know the One who is the way and will keep me in the way. Not some bearded guy in the sky by any means, haha. God is beyond anything I can conceive. That is the nature of the eternal and infinite, and He has granted to those who will believe an eternity to search out His unending riches and truths. And my faith is strengthened because that communion with the Most High does not begin when I die, but right now. For real, which fills me with joy and peace that surpasses understanding.
 
Deception is what I say to you. Though you have a brilliant mind you are not immune. Other brilliant minds have put forth rational self empowering philosophies that you seem to have latched onto.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: palmersc]
    #13316121 - 10/10/10 02:23 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

:penis: :penis: :penis:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinetotallymyhat
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Re: Christian theology: The doctrines of grace (long) [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #13316192 - 10/10/10 02:46 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Matthew 5:17-20

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.




Am I reading this wrong? I understand that following this he goes onto revise the 10 commandments right, but this is what I'm confused about I guess.


--------------------
"When we are dead seek not our tomb in the earth, but find it in the hearts of men."  -Rumi


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