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OfflineStaleShrooms
human after all
Male


Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 2,342
Loc: Detroit
Last seen: 11 years, 26 days
Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: DieCommie]
    #13298255 - 10/06/10 11:19 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

StaleShrooms said:
then why do the top 10% wealthiest get huge tax cuts?




Because you have to pay taxes to get a tax cut.  The top 10% pay nearly all the taxes in the country, so if there is a tax cut naturally they will be effected more than somebody like me who pays zero federal tax.




i pay income taxes. and i make less than 12,000 a year. The rich SHOULD be taxed more (percentage wise) than the poor. they have more, they have more to spare. Yeah, they earned there money so i understand why they dont like to give it up. But whats not being able to buy a third ferrari when our economy is so dismal?


--------------------
Kick is seeing things from a special angle. Kick is momentary freedom from the claims of the aging, cautious, nagging, frightened flesh. Maybe I will find in yage what I was looking for in junk and weed and coke. Yage may be the final fix.
                         
                                              ~William S. Burroughs

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: StaleShrooms]
    #13298282 - 10/06/10 11:25 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I agree, they should pay more and they do pay more by a staggeringly overwhelming ratio.

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Offlinewellage
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Registered: 01/31/09
Posts: 2,467
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Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: DieCommie]
    #13298293 - 10/06/10 11:28 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

They have been paying less and less in recent history

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: wellage]
    #13298303 - 10/06/10 11:30 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Less taxes than the poor?  Bullshit.

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Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: nice1]
    #13298312 - 10/06/10 11:33 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

nice1 said:
2 sides of the same coin.




Yeah they both are fucked.

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Offlinewellage
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Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: DieCommie]
    #13298328 - 10/06/10 11:37 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Less taxes than the poor?  Bullshit.




No. Less taxes then they had been paying (up to 93% for the wealthiest 1% even after WWII)

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OfflineTM2443
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 394
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: DieCommie]
    #13298349 - 10/06/10 11:42 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Just for some broad perspective... Remember that even the 'poor' in the U.S. are often in the top 10 percent of wealthiest people in the world.

A common critique I have with liberals is they seem so eager to help the 'poor', but then they consider some of the richest people on the planet to be poor.  The 'poor' in america are actually quite rich and suffer from an overabundance of food and resources rather than a lack of food and resources.

If you really want to help the poor, feel free to donate as much money as you want to starving africans.  Feel free to fly to china and help out a dirt farmer on the farm.  But dont take my money from me under the threat of violence and then pat yourself on the back for thinking you have just helped the poor - because you havent.






I am poor by american standards. Not to mention things are just getting worse every day for the economy. I'm in college and working, splitting rent with my gf and still need food stamps to get groceries

So of course I'm in favor of eating real food from a grocery store, that's one reason I vote "liberal" I suppose

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OfflineTM2443
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 394
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Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: StaleShrooms]
    #13298361 - 10/06/10 11:45 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

StaleShrooms said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

StaleShrooms said:
then why do the top 10% wealthiest get huge tax cuts?




Because you have to pay taxes to get a tax cut.  The top 10% pay nearly all the taxes in the country, so if there is a tax cut naturally they will be effected more than somebody like me who pays zero federal tax.




i pay income taxes. and i make less than 12,000 a year. The rich SHOULD be taxed more (percentage wise) than the poor. they have more, they have more to spare. Yeah, they earned there money so i understand why they dont like to give it up. But whats not being able to buy a third ferrari when our economy is so dismal?





Couldn't have said it better myself

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
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Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: ReefaCheefa]
    #13298397 - 10/06/10 11:53 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

im not too happy with the democraps either...im just voting for them out of fear of a teabagger congress...

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InvisibleGerman Kahuna
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Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 15,798
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Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: wellage] * 1
    #13298402 - 10/06/10 11:55 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

You Americans and your ideas of a democracy are cute, really. Maybe it used to be a people's country back in the old Abe Lincoln days, but now? Gimme a break. And then you bitched about a one party socialist dictatorship. Hey, at least in the US they make you THINK that you have a two party choice (LOL!) instead of saying "sign here, stupid peasant, or we will shoot you in the back of your neck".
The truth is, whoever wins gets bought out by big business "You want another term in office? Well, here's the suitcase with the cash and you know who to do a favor". Republicans and Democrats, what's the really big difference? I mean really. The big corps are running your country and you have absolutely no say, face it. Bush and Obama, for the average American it's all the same. Your country is run by Haliburton, Phizer, etc.
It's getting worse and worse over here as well. The American disease is catching on. Industry lobby groups are getting more powerful by the minute. This planet sucks as long as the human race is a part of it.


--------------------
"Vegetarian" [ /ˌvedʒəˈteəriən/] - Ancient slang meaning "village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride".

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OfflineStaleShrooms
human after all
Male


Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 2,342
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Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: German Kahuna]
    #13298462 - 10/06/10 12:12 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

German Kahuna said:
You Americans and your ideas of a democracy are cute, really. Maybe it used to be a people's country back in the old Abe Lincoln days, but now? Gimme a break. And then you bitched about a one party socialist dictatorship. Hey, at least in the US they make you THINK that you have a two party choice (LOL!) instead of saying "sign here, stupid peasant, or we will shoot you in the back of your neck".
The truth is, whoever wins gets bought out by big business "You want another term in office? Well, here's the suitcase with the cash and you know who to do a favor". Republicans and Democrats, what's the really big difference? I mean really. The big corps are running your country and you have absolutely no say, face it. Bush and Obama, for the average American it's all the same. Your country is run by Haliburton, Phizer, etc.
It's getting worse and worse over here as well. The American disease is catching on. Industry lobby groups are getting more powerful by the minute. This planet sucks as long as the human race is a part of it.




word. it hasnt been a free country in decades.  since we started giving corporations free reign to do whatever they want.

our bloodsucking corporations are taking their game global. i sort of fear that their endgame is to control all the worlds governments the same way they control the US government. there is only one political party really, and its the corporate party. Democrats and Republicans put a lot of effort into appearing to act independently and do lip service to different ideologies. but once elected they all act the same way. i have to say i like obama more than bush. obama has made small steps to right the wrongs created by the bush administration, but i think its really just so people wont see whats really going on. he hasnt done anything substantially different. he just did a few, minor relatively meaningless things to try and keep with his liberal image so he has a better chance of getting re-elected in 2012. but i'll take feigned and limited progress over no progress or even counter progress as i'm sure mccain getting elected would have brought.

what country are you in?


--------------------
Kick is seeing things from a special angle. Kick is momentary freedom from the claims of the aging, cautious, nagging, frightened flesh. Maybe I will find in yage what I was looking for in junk and weed and coke. Yage may be the final fix.
                         
                                              ~William S. Burroughs

Edited by StaleShrooms (10/06/10 12:16 PM)

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InvisibleGerman Kahuna
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Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 15,798
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Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: StaleShrooms]
    #13298524 - 10/06/10 12:37 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Germany. Since the "Free Democrats" and the "Christian Democratic Union" are in charge this whole country is so blatantly obvious run by big business lobbyist groups it's not even funny anymore.


--------------------
"Vegetarian" [ /ˌvedʒəˈteəriən/] - Ancient slang meaning "village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride".

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OfflineHappy2fly
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Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: TM2443]
    #13298624 - 10/06/10 01:02 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TM2443 said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
As if Democrat and Republican are the only choices. I'm a Libertarian.





But you have to vote democrat or republican, third party candidates hardly ever stand a chance.





Third party candidates don't stand a chance because people think they have to vote democrat or republican.

Quote:

TM2443 said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
If everyone just keeps only voting democrat/republican then of course this system's never going to change.





I agree with you




:confused:


--------------------
The fire has many things to teach.
But so does the human experience.. which is like fire, sometimes you just need to stoke the coals and sometimes you just need to add a log or reposition the log matrix. But a well built fire will be much more self-sustaining than a poorly built one, and they all need love to grow. And don't fuck around or your might burn yourself. Must always respect the fire. - Shroomism

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OfflineLloydChristmas
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Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: ReefaCheefa] * 1
    #13298739 - 10/06/10 01:28 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Like others said, the two party system is a total failure.  George Washington in his final speech as president, made a huge point about the dangers/evils of political parties (or factions as they were called then). 

Democrats choose equality over freedom, Republicans value order over freedom.  Whereas libertarians value freedom over anything.  Communitarians on the other hand, are a bastard child of both dems and repubs who value order and equality over everything.

Naturally, I'm a libertarian. 

People's trust in the two party system has been waning since the 90's, and hopefully with all the turmoil in the parties right now we'll see an end to them.

Here are a few values of the Libertarian.

Primer on Libertarian Values:

1.  Stop Corporate Welfare (Recently, 1.4B to IBM, 4.9M to a Winery in California, 671M to GE, 3M to California Raisin Board, 1.6M to MCDONALDS for European Advertising!!!)

2.  Deliver World Class Education (Remember, Government schools are decidedly liberal, biased, and do a very poor job compared to Asian and European schools.)

3.  Defend the US from Foreign Enemies and Threats (remember the US Constitution, its in there right at the top…)  Non intervention and free trade are better than proactive military deployments.  We have options on how to achieve our goals, and there is much we can do here.

4.  Come to our senses on the War on Drugs.  Personally, prescription drugs do more damage than illegal ones, and pot is no more a threat than alcohol, but we’re spending billions locking people up for what is not even a crime in other countries, not that we need to be like them, but we can be more sensible.  I don’t do drugs, and I support this to a large degree.

5.  You have a right to keep and bear arms.  This is under the category of ‘liberty’ in the Constitution!  Guns don’t kill people, but people do, and often.  We are not sheep, we are not going to be victims.  Besides, how do we put down our Government if we are unarmed?  There could come a time when that kind of thing could be a serious issue!

6.  Our government produces more environmental pollution than the citizens and private companies do.  We are highly restricted, and have complied as Americans to protect our environment, but the Government does not abide its own laws, and that needs to change.  Private sector experts can lead the way, they are already far ahead!~

7.  Retire rich.  If I had been able to invest my Social Security taxes into my 401K, I would be a millionaire now, but instead, I’ve paid in, and because my retirement is 50.00 over the maximum income, therefore I lose it all because I don’t qualify for Social Security.  I have been robbed for 40 years, and have nothing to show for it now.  You pay 12.4% into system that will collapse in 2016 according to the SS Board of Trustees.  Libertarians want you to be able to invest this 12.4% of your pay to an investment account that YOU control instead.  What a novel concept!  The stock market over time averages 7% returns, whereas Social Security averages 1.2%.  That 5.8% difference means you can retire as a millionaire instead of a thousandaire.

8.  There are poor people among us.  Let us end failed welfare programs.  Let us give dollar-for-dollar tax credits to those that donate to legitimate private charities.  Who would not give to the poor rather than the Government, especially those like us who want smaller government?  But even better than encouraging charitable giving, which frankly cannot solve the problem of poverty, we want to encourage businesses to thrive and hire more people that would not have been working otherwise.  This is the key to ending poverty, it is better to have a shortage of labor than a shortage of jobs.  There are practical ways to encourage even those on a limited income to start businesses or make their own jobs, and then to hire others as they climb the ladder of success.  In spite of the US having spent 4.5 Trillion dollars in the last 40 years on welfare, the poverty level remains at 14%, just like it was in the beginning.  Welfare does NOT work. Jobs are the solution.

9.  Mark Twain might have said “Rumors of Canada’s successful universal healthcare system have been grossly exaggerated!”  The US has the best health care on the planet, period.  Making it affordable for everyone is not hard.  IT used to be that health care was cheap and good in the US, but Government got involved and now it is still good, but incredibly expensive for those on the lower rungs of the ladder.  To get the cost down, we can stop thinking of routine visits as something that needs to be covered by insurance.  Insurance is for catastrophies.  We don’t use insurance to get our car waxed of filled up, but we want our flu shot covered by health care?  Also, we can allow Americans to invest in their own health care savings, tax free, to handle that flu shot, and in normal situations, the interest on your savings will pay for most routine care.  Insurance for real emergencies would be a LOT less expensive, just like your car insurance would be less if you take the higher deductible.  Deregulation in the health care industry will lead to self-regulation and more competition, both of which are good for citizens.  We also have far too many barriers to getting new drugs to market that will benefit those that need them.  10 years to get a heart medicine to market thanks to the FDA approval cycle, meant that 100,000 people died that might have benefited from the drug.  We can do better!

10.  Finally, we need less taxation!  Taxes levied by the Government on every stage of a product’s life mean that a 23,000.00 vehicle could be purchased for only 12,650.00 without the built-in taxes that compound in the short life of a new car.  In other words, you give the Government 10,350.00 to spend on some failed program each time you buy a car.  That applies to everything you buy, including a box of Cheerios.  The Libertarian party supports the Fair Tax, a single tax paid at the time of consumption.  If you can imagine this:  You get your paycheck one week, and there is an extra 500.00 in it, depending on how much you make each week.  There are no taxes withheld!  You go to dinner with your family that evening, and there is a single tax added to your meal, and that’s about 17%, roughly what you’d tip for really good service at a nice restaurant.  This is the Fair Tax, and that’s the only way you ever pay any taxes.  If you choose not to spend for dinner, you pay NO tax at all to the Government.  This Fair Tax is becoming very popular, and a good book has been written by Neal Boortz and more are coming.  The FairTax (fairtax.org) encourages saving, reduces your tax burden, takes power away from politicians that want to use your money for failed programs and social engineering, pet projects, pork spending and other wastful things.  It won’t be an easy sell to politicians whose power comes from the tax code, but it can be done if WE, THE PEOPLE want it done!  Get on board, read the book and start supporting it!


"Libertarianism is the view that each person has the right to live his life in any way he chooses so long as he respects the equal rights of others"


--------------------

Edited by LloydChristmas (10/06/10 01:31 PM)

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Offlinefapjack
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Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: LloydChristmas] * 1
    #13298809 - 10/06/10 01:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I agree with the majority of Libertarian views, though some I believe are kind of unrealistic.  Ending welfare, ending public schools, and ending minimum wage are issues I strongly disagree with.


--------------------

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OfflineLloydChristmas
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Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: fapjack]
    #13298835 - 10/06/10 01:49 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

They don't necessarily want to end those, just find a better or more practical way.


--------------------

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InvisibleGerman Kahuna
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Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: LloydChristmas] * 1
    #13298876 - 10/06/10 01:59 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The US has the best health care on the planet, period.




:lol:
That was a good one. I am still wiping the tears from my eyes I was laughing so hard.
It has absolutely NO functioning public healthcare whatsoever. You might as well be honest and say that that is the way you prefer it to be. A public healthcare system where you get your pockets turned inside out to see if you can actually afford to be treated in a hospital before you receive any treatment doesn't deserve the name "public healthcare". What you and your libertarian buddies are advertising is survival of the fittest. I believe in a society where the ones that CAN afford to care for the ones that can't care for themselves actually do so. I don't believe in a society where people that benefit from exactly that society (by being provided a stable environment to go about their business and make unheard of riches) don't actually feel like it would be a decent thing to do to actually be giving something back to society instead of being fucking selfish bastards and just grabbing whatever they can get. THAT is scum behaviour in my eyes. It's the "fat kid that nobody likes" type of behaviour.
The fifty richest Americans have hoarded enough wealth to prevent tens of thousands of babies starving of hunger immediately every day. They could pay off the debth of the ten poorest countries in the world as well (and please don't make me go into the details of WHY they are that poor). Yet we have fifty individuals sitting on a pile of wealth that keeps millions in poverty (yes, this IS related to the unfair distribution of wealth in the world!). Call me a socialist, but your libertarian survival of the fittest ideology can kiss my pale ass.


--------------------
"Vegetarian" [ /ˌvedʒəˈteəriən/] - Ancient slang meaning "village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride".

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: fapjack]
    #13298936 - 10/06/10 02:11 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fapjack said:
I agree with the majority of Libertarian views, though some I believe are kind of unrealistic.  Ending welfare, ending public schools, and ending minimum wage are issues I strongly disagree with.




Yes, because taking from those who do... to give to those who do not, makes so much sense.

Yes, because churning out twits with a misguided sense of entitlement that can barely read or write makes so much sense.

Yes, because forcing employers to pay more than some employees are worth makes so much sense.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: TM2443]
    #13298949 - 10/06/10 02:13 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TM2443 said:I'm in college and working, splitting rent with my gf and still need food stamps to get groceries




Golly. Having read your posts in this thread why am I not surprised to discover your true motivation?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineTaco Chef
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Re: Democrat or Republican? [Re: DieCommie]
    #13299011 - 10/06/10 02:26 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Thats a real biased and naive rant you got going there.  Do you actually believe that crap?




well, do you believe the very biased, albeit shorter, rant you posted?


--------------------




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