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Anonymous #1

Raids, locked doors, pill form questions
    #13292659 - 10/05/10 09:44 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

A few questions / observations

- I have my mushroom grow in a locked walk in closet.
    - Is this the same as having it in a locked dresser, eg. in the case of a search warrant, I assume they can kick down the door. Can they open a locked dresser?
    - Without a search warrant, and some idiot (building manager) lets them into my apt (it could happen, I live in an apartment) can they legally look in the locked closet without a warrant? What about a locked dresser?

And then also, for storing, and selling shrooms, I am kind of confused why more people do not grind the dried shrooms and put them in gel capsules. I can fit a half gram in it.
Not only is law enforcement pretty clueless when it comes to shrooms in gel capsules, but most users also are. They look just like vitamins and you could simply carry around a bottle of vitamins with you or store it in your house.
Even in the chance of a search warrant, I can see the cops taking one look at the multivitamin container, seeing the contents which look natural (and not a chemical like mdma which they would expect) and just leave them alone.

Any thoughts?

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Anonymous #2

Re: Raids, locked doors, pill form questions [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #13292909 - 10/05/10 10:46 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

If they have a search warrent they Will look in everything thats not locked. If they have a warrant for someones arrest they COULD llok anywhere a person could fit. If the landlord let them in without a warrant, they can't look in anything he doesn't have a key to. If they have a search warrant/resonable suspicion, they may take your vitamins. With no suspicion of them possibley being anything, they prob. wouldn't notice

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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Raids, locked doors, pill form questions [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #13294135 - 10/05/10 03:10 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

If they have a warrant they can search anywhere.

Our safe tech gets called out all the time in the middle of the night.  The cops do a bust, the person won't give them the combination/key to a safe, so we get called to bust into it.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Raids, locked doors, pill form questions [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #13294798 - 10/05/10 05:22 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Be careful with the information provided by the 'couch lawyers' that learned everything they know by watching courtroom dramas on TV.  Both replies are incompletely, inaccurate, and could cost you your freedom.

> Any thoughts?

Talk to a lawyer in your area if you want to know how the laws in your area work.  However, in general, it boils down to risk management.  The police are going to do what they want to do regardless of it being legal or not.  The courts will decide if the evidence that the police acquired will be admissible or not.  The more you do to make it difficult for the police to secure evidence against you, the better off you are.  Still, if the hammer falls, it is a crap shoot at best.  From a risk management standpoint, don't break the law and you have the least to worry about.


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Raids, locked doors, pill form questions [Re: Seuss]
    #13295397 - 10/05/10 07:35 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Be careful with the information provided by the 'couch lawyers' that learned everything they know by watching courtroom dramas on TV.  Both replies are incompletely, inaccurate, and could cost you your freedom.

> Any thoughts?

Talk to a lawyer in your area if you want to know how the laws in your area work.  However, in general, it boils down to risk management.  The police are going to do what they want to do regardless of it being legal or not.  The courts will decide if the evidence that the police acquired will be admissible or not.  The more you do to make it difficult for the police to secure evidence against you, the better off you are.  Still, if the hammer falls, it is a crap shoot at best.  From a risk management standpoint, don't break the law and you have the least to worry about.





I'm a locksmith by trade and what I said is not incorrect.  It has nothing to do with being a "couch lawyer".  It has to do with being in the field of breaking into shit for a living.

Hundreds of after hours calls are made every year to open stuff inside the houses that police are raiding.  Now I'm in Canada, maybe it works different in the states, but I'll tell you what happens here.

Police get a warrant to search the house.  They find ANY legal activity upon entering, it gives them the right to seach the entire house, including any locked compartments.  If that isn't in compliance with the current warrant, they apply for a warrant to grant entry to said locked apartment.  If the person refuses to hand over keys or combinations, a hired contractor(that's me) is called in to get in.  And in the process, usually the safes are destroyed and the rcmp don't pay to have it replaced or repaired.

Sounds unfair, but hey, cops are douches.  If they come into your house with a warrant, you better be sure they are going in your locked closet or safe or whatever.

Make it difficult for them though I say.  It has nothing to do with "risk management".  They are going to search it whether you like it or not, so I say do it just to make there day a little harder.  And if not that, give a locksmith some extra money :tongue:

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Offlinekyguy
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Re: Raids, locked doors, pill form questions [Re: Spooge]
    #13295443 - 10/05/10 07:46 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

<The police are going to do what they want to do regardless of it being legal or not.>

Damn right they will!! Locks are best but its so easy for them to kick the door in and "claim" to smell mary jane or anything to give them probable cause.

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Re: Raids, locked doors, pill form questions [Re: Seuss]
    #13295825 - 10/05/10 09:05 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

kyguy said:
<The police are going to do what they want to do regardless of it being legal or not.>

Damn right they will!! Locks are best but its so easy for them to kick the door in and "claim" to smell mary jane or anything to give them probable cause.





And so what if they smell mary jane?  Unless they get a warrant based on this, there's no particular relevance.  This is a fallacy many people promote on these boards and should be understood as such.

Quote:

Police get a warrant to search the house.  They find ANY legal activity upon entering, it gives them the right to seach the entire house, including any locked compartments.  If that isn't in compliance with the current warrant, they apply for a warrant to grant entry to said locked apartment.  If the person refuses to hand over keys or combinations, a hired contractor(that's me) is called in to get in.  And in the process, usually the safes are destroyed and the rcmp don't pay to have it replaced or repaired.




In the US, and Canadian law is usually the same as to searches in general, though its easier for them to get in illegally obtained evidence than it is in the states:  them finding illegal items does not give them the right to search the entire house.  They must have a warrant or permission for the area and thing to be searched/seized.  Finding drugs doesn't have any effect on this.  Applying for a warrant isn't the same as having the right to search and seize nor admit the fruits.



Quote:

If they have a warrant they can search anywhere.

Our safe tech gets called out all the time in the middle of the night.  The cops do a bust, the person won't give them the combination/key to a safe, so we get called to bust into it.





No, 4th Amendment

Quote:

If they have a search warrent they Will look in everything thats not locked. If they have a warrant for someones arrest they COULD llok anywhere a person could fit. If the landlord let them in without a warrant, they can't look in anything he doesn't have a key to. If they have a search warrant/resonable suspicion, they may take your vitamins. With no suspicion of them possibley being anything, they prob. wouldn't notice




No, reasonable suspicion has nothing to do with them entering a residence and searching it.  A warrant, permission, or exception is needed.

Having a warrant also doesn't mean they can look in everything nor does its power stop with locked containers.

The 4th amendment requires the warrant to state the place to be searched and the item to be seized- the warrant must issue for the premises to be searched and the search/seizure must be for the items to be seized.



Quote:

Seuss said:
Be careful with the information provided by the 'couch lawyers' that learned everything they know by watching courtroom dramas on TV.  Both replies are incompletely, inaccurate, and could cost you your freedom.

> Any thoughts?

Talk to a lawyer in your area if you want to know how the laws in your area work.  However, in general, it boils down to risk management.  The police are going to do what they want to do regardless of it being legal or not.  The courts will decide if the evidence that the police acquired will be admissible or not.  The more you do to make it difficult for the police to secure evidence against you, the better off you are.  Still, if the hammer falls, it is a crap shoot at best.  From a risk management standpoint, don't break the law and you have the least to worry about.





Yep, right on


OP:  The standard for a search of a residence is a warrant issued upon probable cause presented to a judicial officer describing the place and items with particularity or consent.  Uncommon exceptions exist in the US that likely won't matter unless you let the cops in the house voluntarily or they have cause to enter independantly.  (terry search, search incident to arrest, et cet)

If you want a location hard to search you need to prevent probable cause from existing that the location has evidence of a crime.  There are no hard and fast rules in searches, you simply need to do as Seuss said and make it harder to obtian this standard of proof for the item and not create a situation where a terry search/public safety search could occur.

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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Raids, locked doors, pill form questions [Re: johnm214]
    #13296168 - 10/05/10 10:00 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

No, 4th Amendment






So you are the couch lawyers he was talking about :smirk:

You clearly have no real world experience.  So everytime one of us locksmiths gets called out to open a locked container/safe, when they are executing a search warrant, it's the cops doing something illegal?

I know that the cops help pay our tech after hours wages by calling them out on a regular basis.

I wonder how many idiots cited the 4th amedment while they were calling us up :lol:

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Re: Raids, locked doors, pill form questions [Re: Spooge]
    #13296631 - 10/05/10 11:53 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

No, that is not what I said at all- I simply said you were incorrect in making the following statement as the 4th amendment does not allow this:

Quote:


If they have a warrant they can search anywhere.

Our safe tech gets called out all the time in the middle of the night.  The cops do a bust, the person won't give them the combination/key to a safe, so we get called to bust into it.





As I said previously, the 4th amendment requires a warrant to provide with particularity the location to be searched and the items to be seized/searched for.  The fact that they have a warrant does not allow them to search anywhere as you've said, it only allows that which is permitted by the warrant.


Your claim that cops will do such and such is off point entirely- my post said they cannot do as you say, not that they will not.  As Seuss has rightly said, the cops will do what they want and then the propriety of it and the legality of the fruits resulting therefrom will be tested in court.  What they will do is not something anyone can say, what the law allows them to do is- and it is the later I commented on.


Quote:

So you are the couch lawyers he was talking about :smirk:




You'd have to ask Seuss who he was talking about, but it's worth noting that I'm the only 'couch lawyer' who has provided a citation to law and a reasoned explanation to accompany my conclusions so that the reader can evaluate them or challenge them.

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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Raids, locked doors, pill form questions [Re: johnm214]
    #13297791 - 10/06/10 09:11 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

No, that is not what I said at all- I simply said you were incorrect in making the following statement as the 4th amendment does not allow this:




Well then please elaborate on why we get called out in the middle of the night to open safes and locked compartments when the RCMP are executing a search warrant, over and over again I might add, when the person will not give up the key or combination?

I might add, that Canada doesn't have a 4th amendment.

"In Canada, Section Eight of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects all individuals from unreasonable search and seizure. For a search to be "reasonable" it must be authorized by law, the law itself must be reasonable, and the manner in which the search was carried out must be reasonable (R. v. S.A.B., 2003 SCC 60). This means that the officer must be acting within the power of a valid statute, and it must be performed on the basis of there being "reasonable and probable grounds" that a crime has been committed."

If they are executing a search warrant because they've been tipped off you might be growing marijuana, they have every right to look in the safe to see if there is evidence in there that will help their case.

I'm not saying hand over the keys though.  They are going to look into it either way.  Make them call us out in the middle of the night. Me being in the locksmith trade, I know this first hand.  When you refute this comment with a simple "no, 4th amendment", it not only calls me a liar, but doesn't show/tell how it can actually be applicable in the real world.  Especially because I was relating to Canadian law, where there is no 4th amendment.

I will point out though that there is a chance, depending on the scope of the warrant, if you don't give them the keys, the evidence they do find inside MAYBE will be excluded in court.

either way, never give of up keys or combination.  It's just making it to easy for the police.

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Re: Raids, locked doors, pill form questions [Re: Spooge]
    #13297920 - 10/06/10 09:55 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

My house has been raided before. The cops were looking for drugs. The entire house was searched and trashed, including a locked drawer. They looked everywhere; trashed everything.

Not sure, if it was legal or not (wasn't charged with anything) -- just something that happened from personal experience.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Raids, locked doors, pill form questions [Re: klimt]
    #13298116 - 10/06/10 10:49 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Well then please elaborate on why we get called out in the middle of the night to open safes and locked compartments when the RCMP are executing a search warrant, over and over again I might add, when the person will not give up the key or combination?

I might add, that Canada doesn't have a 4th amendment.




Which is why my advice included "Talk to a lawyer in your area if you want to know how the laws in your area work."  The OP didn't not specify a region, therefore I have no idea what laws apply.  Obviously the laws in Canada are different than the laws in Australia are different than the laws in the US.


Quote:

I'm a locksmith by trade and what I said is not incorrect.  It has nothing to do with being a "couch lawyer".




What you said could be incorrect depending upon where you live.  It might have been correct for Canada, but your answer was incomplete because you did not qualify it with a jurisdiction, thus is was also incorrect.  Perhaps my complaint seems overly anal, but when a persons freedom is on the line, I feel that it is appropriate to demand accuracy.


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Re: Raids, locked doors, pill form questions [Re: klimt]
    #13298634 - 10/06/10 01:04 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I said my post was referred to US law if you'll look above.

Quote:

In the US, and Canadian law is usually the same as to searches in general, though its easier for them to get in illegally obtained evidence than it is in the states:  them finding illegal items does not give them the right to search the entire house.  They must have a warrant or permission for the area and thing to be searched/seized.  Finding drugs doesn't have any effect on this.  Applying for a warrant isn't the same as having the right to search and seize nor admit the fruits.






As I also said, the system is generally similar in Canada- Canadian decisions on section 8 and warrants often cite US decisions on the 4th Amendment, and the provisions of both are similar.

Under section 8 and the statutory implementations, their is a requirement for the person and premises to be stipulated- the fact that a warrant is obtained does not allow a search in any location on the premises, as you said, but only those included within the warrant's authorization.

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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Raids, locked doors, pill form questions [Re: Seuss]
    #13300333 - 10/06/10 06:53 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

What you said could be incorrect depending upon where you live.  It might have been correct for Canada, but your answer was incomplete because you did not qualify it with a jurisdiction, thus is was also incorrect.  Perhaps my complaint seems overly anal, but when a persons freedom is on the line, I feel that it is appropriate to demand accuracy.




That makes sense.  Fair enough :thumbup:  You are right, my response was incomplete.

Though, my bottom line stays the same.  They are going to check it whether you like it or not, but don't give them keys or combinations.  And just possibly, the evidence could be inadmissible

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Re: Raids, locked doors, pill form questions [Re: Spooge]
    #13304283 - 10/07/10 02:31 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

No response is going to be "complete" because it all depends. Even talking about one state in one country, there could be exceptions to any general rule. However, if the cops do something illegal, any evidence can usually be tossed and not lead to a conviction. Unfortunately, that does not help you with parole or probation violations nor with civil actions. They can still seize your property for being associated with a crime even if the crime was discovered with an invalid warrant or no warrant at all. It doesn't sound fair but that's how it works. Even if they had a warrant for another house and broke into yours by mistake, they can still take you down.

There are some limitations on warrants. Usually they describe the areas to be searched. If it says the entire house or apt, then anything is fair game. But if it only says living quarters and they break into the garage, it might be tossed depending on the wording and the judge's ruling. Generally they try to get the broadest warrant they can get.

A landlord letting them in has been ruled a legitimate search in some places and thrown out in others. Don't try to assume you are safe from that. IMO, if the landlord lets them in and they bust into a locked compartment or safe, it will not hold up. But see the part about civil actions etc. And they can always lie and say it was already broken and open and they just looked in and saw your stuff. Who is the judge or jury going to believe, an obvious druggie or an officer of the law? You know the answer. Cops lie day in and day out especially narc cops. It's part of the job. Cops who refuse to lie don't "produce" well enough and get put on traffic patrol.


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Re: Raids, locked doors, pill form questions [Re: Stonehenge]
    #13304860 - 10/07/10 04:35 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
No response is going to be "complete" because it all depends.




Nope.

For example: the cops need a warrant, permission, or exceptional circumstance making warantless entry legal, to enter a residence.

Contrary to whats stated previously: the cops can't search everything on the premises just because a warrant exists for some portion of that location- they still need authorization for the particular location in question.

There's all sorts of complete answers, your likely just making an appeal to ignorance as you've been called out for saying many false things in this forum time and time again and clearly aren't aware of the very few exceptions to, for example, the requirement for a warant when searching a residence withotu permission.

Quote:

if the cops do something illegal, any evidence can usually be tossed and not lead to a conviction.




Please support this claim.

You've been challenged on this before and have failed to provide any justification for this claim. Please provide citations for this fact.


Quote:

Unfortunately, that does not help you with parole or probation violations nor with civil actions.




Interesting, I recall you denying this last time it came up.  Are you still claiming a probation violation hearing is not a civil proceeding as well as a parole violation?  I see you refer to them seperately to civil actions and recall your prior insistances, so was wondering if your still make this unsupported claim?


Quote:

They can still seize your property for being associated with a crime even if the crime was discovered with an invalid warrant or no warrant at all.




Source?  This is not true, the fourth amendment requires seizure to be reasonable, and warantless seizure of property in a residence, for example, is presumptively unconstitutional and therefore illegal.  Obviously there is no immunity granted due to them doing an unconstitutional search if this is what you mean, but this is plain on its face and of no particular relevance.

Quote:

Even if they had a warrant for another house and broke into yours by mistake, they can still take you down.




No, they need legal justification to enter your house (which I presume you mean by 'take you down' as a judgment of guilty has no neccesary dependance on the legality of a search and therefore would be irrelevant) and warantless entry is presumptively unconstitutional and excludable with no blanket 'other house' exemption.

The only thing you could be, obliquely and incorrectly, referring to is a typographic error or something like that, but that has nothing to do with what the judicial officer authorizes, only with what is physically written on paperwork- which is itself not constitutionally required anyways.  They need judicial assent and a finding of probable cause for the location and items specified to search via warrant- this has nothing to do with what is written on a random piece of paper and everything to do with what the constitution requires, reasonable search, probable cause, location and items, et cet

If the probable cause is established for some location that does not give them the ability to search a seperate location they've entered by mistake, and doesn't allow, by this fact, the entry of the seized items into evidence.

Quote:


There are some limitations on warrants. Usually they describe the areas to be searched.




No, they always describe the areas to be searched.  The Fourth Amendment requires this.

General Warrants were abrogated hundreds of years ago and were historically cited as motivations for the Fourth Amendment.  This power how not ever been legal in the United States.

Quote:

If it says the entire house or apt, then anything is fair game.




No, they are still bound by the law and may not do unreasonable searches without violating the law- no matter what a judge says.  A warrant founded upon probable cause for some location does not necessarily grant the ability of the police to search the entirety of the premises- reasonble seraches are required and the legality of the warrant is always testable after the fact as they're usually granted ex parte.

For Big Houses sectioned into seperate quarters, one guy getting a warrant doesn't neccesarily allow searching the entire house, as one counterexample that's encountered frequently.

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Re: Raids, locked doors, pill form questions [Re: johnm214]
    #13305486 - 10/07/10 07:12 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
No response is going to be "complete" because it all depends.




Nope.

For example: the cops need a warrant, permission, or exceptional circumstance making warantless entry legal, to enter a residence.





In what country?  :wink:


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Re: Raids, locked doors, pill form questions [Re: Seuss]
    #13307054 - 10/08/10 02:11 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

good point, I loose


I said I was talking about the US above though, so that surely counts for something

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Re: Raids, locked doors, pill form questions [Re: johnm214]
    #13307294 - 10/08/10 04:34 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> good point, I lose

lol... nah, I was just giving you a hard time.  :smile:


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