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Invisibletrekie
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The wealth gap
    #13278932 - 10/02/10 09:28 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

can some one remind me why we are so complacent?




Earlier this month I published a 10-part Slate series (PDF; serial version; slide show) about the 30-year rise in income inequality that Princeton's Paul Krugman has dubbed "The Great Divergence." In the first installment, I noted that in 1915, when the richest 1 percent accounted for about 18 percent of the nation's income, the prospect of class warfare was imminent. Today, the richest 1 percent account for 24 percent of the nation's income, yet the prospect of class warfare is utterly remote. Indeed, the political question foremost in Washington's mind is how thoroughly the political party more closely associated with the working class (that would be the Democrats) will get clobbered in the next election. Why aren't the bottom 99 percent marching in the streets?

One possible answer is sheer ignorance. People know we're living in a time of growing income inequality, Krugman told me, but "the ordinary person is not really aware of how big it is." The ignorance hypothesis gets a strong assist from a new paper for the journal Perspectives on Psychological Science: "Building a Better America—One Wealth Quintile at a Time." The authors are Michael I. Norton, a psychologist who teaches at Harvard Business School, and Dan Ariely, a behavioral economist (and blogger) at Duke. Norton and Ariely focus on the distribution of wealth, which is even more top-heavy than the distribution of income. The richest 1 percent account for 35 percent of the nation's net worth; subtract housing, and their share rises to 43 percent. The richest 20 percent (or "top quintile") account for 85 percent; subtract housing and their share rises to 93 percent. But when Norton and Ariely surveyed a group whose incomes, voting patterns, and geographic distribution approximated that of the U.S. population, the respondents guessed that the top quintile accounted for only 59 percent of the nation's wealth.


In his book The Wisdom of Crowds, James Surowiecki cites example after example in which collective judgment proves remarkably accurate. When a finance professor polled his class about the number of jelly beans in a jar, individual answers were all over the map, but when he averaged them, the group estimate was less than 3 percent off. When a British statistician reviewed tickets from a contest to guess the weight of an ox at a livestock fair, he found similarly diverse answers, but when he averaged them, the group estimate (1,197 pounds) was less than 0.1 percent off. Such "crowd-sourcing," however, turns out to be a terrible method for estimating the distribution of wealth. Norton and Ariely's respondents were off by 31 percent, even though wealth distribution (unlike income distribution) has remained essentially unchanged for a generation.
Norton and Ariely broke down the responses by income group and found the guesses became slightly more accurate as you moved up the income scale. But more striking was the uniformity among income groups. All five quintiles imagined the top quintile to possess about 60 percent of the nation's wealth. (Again, the real figure is 85 percent.) More surprising still, the average guess of a respondent who'd voted for George W. Bush in the 2004 presidential election was not appreciably different from the average guess of a respondent who'd voted for John Kerry. The Kerry voters imagined the top quintile's share to be larger than the Bush voters did, but again, both figured it was about 60 percent.

Norton and Ariely also asked respondents what they thought the ideal distribution of wealth should be, and found, again, little difference among income groups, or between Bush voters and Kerry voters. Most favored a wealth distribution resembling that in … Sweden! But when you examine Norton and Ariely's method, that particular finding gets a little shaky. They showed respondents three unlabeled pie charts. One depicted utopian equality, with wealth distributed equally among five groups. The second depicted the United States, with wealth distributed very unequally among five groups (one of which gobbled up 85 percent—Norton and Ariely put it at 84 percent, but let's not quibble). The third depicted Sweden, where the top quintile accounts for 35 percent of the nation's wealth. Neither the Swedish pie chart nor the U.S. pie chart was identified by nation. Norton and Ariely were astonished that 47 percent of respondents—remember these were all Americans—chose the pie chart depicting Sweden. But surely most survey-takers, when presented with two extreme options and one that lies in the middle, will instinctively gravitate, like Goldilocks, toward the middle option. More surprising to me was that second place went to Utopia (43 percent). Only 10 percent voted for the pie chart depicting the country the respondents actually live in.
Americans' ignorance about wealth (and, probably, income) distribution is encouraging in the sense that it offers hope that most voters might opt for government policies more conducive to equality if only they knew how unequal things were. But it's dismaying in the sense that people who occupy a position of relative privilege seem to go out of their way to avoid acknowledging it. A recent example is M. Todd Henderson, a law professor at the University of Chicago whose annual household income exceeds $250,000, putting him comfortably ahead of 98 percent of his fellow Americans. Henderson was foolish enough to write a blog post venturing that even though he and his wife earn more than $250,000, his Hyde Park neighbor Barack Obama shouldn't raise his taxes because "we can't afford it" after paying the mortgage, the kids' private school tuition, the nanny, etc. You can imagine the response he got. Henderson, who promptly took the post down (futile in this era of Web caches) used the occasion to excavate deeper wells of self-pity ("The electronic lynch mob that has attacked and harassed me—you should see the emails sent to me personally!—has made my family feel threatened and insecure…. You have caused untold damage to me personally"). Henderson said he was sorry—not for making asinine claims about how much money you need to get by in America, but for violating his wife's privacy by splashing details of their financial lives all over the Internet. (He said his wife "disagrees vehemently with my opinion." Sensible woman.)
I know a lot of people like Henderson—well, maybe not quite as clueless as Henderson, but liable, in private, to confide that making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year doesn't make them feel rich. The United States may possess a shrinking middle class, but the number of its citizens who consider themselves middle class (because they can't face that they're rich) may actually be growing. Perhaps a similarly large number consider themselves middle class because they can't face that they're poor. What we can conclude with some certainty is that counting dollars belonging to oneself relative to others is a much more emotionally distorted activity than counting jelly beans.
Source slate.com


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I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The wealth gap [Re: trekie]
    #13278942 - 10/02/10 09:32 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Complacent about what?  That most people are easily replaceable cyphers?


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OfflineJT
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Re: The wealth gap [Re: trekie]
    #13278961 - 10/02/10 09:37 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

just like rome right before the republic fell...

my latin prof busted out this graph in class on tuesday...he's kind of a liberal nut, but he has a point.


*and i've read both the wisdom of crowds and two of ariely's books...i think the author of your article has it right.

Edited by JT (10/02/10 09:39 AM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The wealth gap [Re: JT]
    #13278992 - 10/02/10 09:48 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

So what?  You know what else is inequitably distributed?  Talent, ability, work ethic, intelligence, physical gifts, ambition, courage and, yes, luck.


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Invisiblememes
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Re: The wealth gap [Re: JT]
    #13279036 - 10/02/10 10:04 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

JT said:
my latin prof busted out this graph in class on tuesday...he's kind of a liberal nut, but he has a point.





I see:

Top 1%
50-90%
50-100% (Bottom 50%)
90-99%

WTF.  Good thing your latin teacher is a latin teacher becuase his graph sucks.

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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: The wealth gap [Re: trekie]
    #13279102 - 10/02/10 10:28 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Complacent about what?  The people that are complacent are the ones that bitch about the wealthy and do nothing to improve their status so as to earn more money.  Looting business' or people who have wealth in the name of 'equality' is a nice way to run business out of the country.


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:smug: [/url][/url] 
:smirk: IF THE NEIGHBORS COMPLAIN BECAUSE THE MUSIC'S TOO LOUD, TURN IT UP SO YOU CAN'T HEAR THEM BITCH    :smirk:

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OfflineF0SS1L
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Re: The wealth gap [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13279247 - 10/02/10 11:11 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
So what?  You know what else is inequitably distributed?  Talent, ability, work ethic, intelligence, physical gifts, ambition, courage and, yes, luck.




Hardly as inequitably as wealth. Maybe luck, but even with all the cynicism in my spine I know not that many people are stupid and lazy.


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That's me on the street with a violin under my chin. Playing with a grin, singing gibberish.

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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: The wealth gap [Re: F0SS1L]
    #13279255 - 10/02/10 11:14 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

F0SS1L said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
So what?  You know what else is inequitably distributed?  Talent, ability, work ethic, intelligence, physical gifts, ambition, courage and, yes, luck.




Hardly as inequitably as wealth. Maybe luck, but even with all the cynicism in my spine I know not that many people are stupid and lazy.




But a lot of people have no desire to be anything more than what they are.  Motivation is a big deal.  A lot of people would like to learn something that would make them a lot of money--if it was easy.


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:smug: [/url][/url] 
:smirk: IF THE NEIGHBORS COMPLAIN BECAUSE THE MUSIC'S TOO LOUD, TURN IT UP SO YOU CAN'T HEAR THEM BITCH    :smirk:

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The wealth gap [Re: starfire_xes]
    #13279276 - 10/02/10 11:20 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Mediocre and easily replaceable is not the same thing as stupid.  Nor is lazy the only alternative to courageous and ambitious.  Some people are risk averse and settle for the safe path.  They will not fail catastrophically but neither will they achieve extraordinarily.  Consider the example of almost everyone who makes their living in academia.  They are supposedly intelligent and will do OK but have just about zero chance of getting wealthy.  A choice.


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OfflineF0SS1L
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Re: The wealth gap [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13279398 - 10/02/10 11:51 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Oh I agree on that account (@both starfire and zappa). In fact I was even going to use teaching as an example. I think teachers should be paid more as I consider them an integral part of society and their average salary is pretty awful. But then they haven't exactly chosen the hardest career path in the world either.

However, I think a lot of us can acknowledge that wealth distribution will be uneven. But if we consider that most people settle for average you'd still expect a somewhat more generous allotment of wealth among this bulk of people. Then again, maybe not :shrug:


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That's me on the street with a violin under my chin. Playing with a grin, singing gibberish.

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OfflineJT
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Re: The wealth gap [Re: memes]
    #13279417 - 10/02/10 11:56 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

it's basically the same info, just in a pie chart. not sure what you mean :shrug:

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: The wealth gap [Re: memes]
    #13279496 - 10/02/10 12:18 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Quote:

JT said:
my latin prof busted out this graph in class on tuesday...he's kind of a liberal nut, but he has a point.





I see:

Top 1%
50-90%
50-100% (Bottom 50%)
90-99%

WTF.  Good thing your latin teacher is a latin teacher becuase his graph sucks.



whats wrong with it?


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: The wealth gap [Re: trekie]
    #13279633 - 10/02/10 12:56 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

For people with a disproportionate share of the wealth look no further than members of the political elite--i.e. Al Gore, John Kerry, the Bushes, etc.  These are the same people who play the class warfare game and dupe everyone into thinking they are principled by throwing a bone every once in a while to the dogs of the working class.


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:smug: [/url][/url] 
:smirk: IF THE NEIGHBORS COMPLAIN BECAUSE THE MUSIC'S TOO LOUD, TURN IT UP SO YOU CAN'T HEAR THEM BITCH    :smirk:

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Invisiblememes
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Re: The wealth gap [Re: learningtofly]
    #13279696 - 10/02/10 01:14 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

JT said:
it's basically the same info, just in a pie chart. not sure what you mean :shrug:



Quote:

learningtofly said:
whats wrong with it?




Where is the representation for the 2-49%?  Those numbers add to 100% and nearly half of the US population is unaccounted for in that graph.

So that's whats wrong with it.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The wealth gap [Re: F0SS1L]
    #13279715 - 10/02/10 01:20 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

F0SS1L said:
Oh I agree on that account (@both starfire and zappa). In fact I was even going to use teaching as an example. I think teachers should be paid more as I consider them an integral part of society and their average salary is pretty awful. But then they haven't exactly chosen the hardest career path in the world either.




Everybody is an integral part of society.  As far as teacher pay goes we have vastly increased the amount of money spent on education and have gotten negligible improvement.  Paying teachers more has not and will not make them better.  Mediocrities will still be attracted to the safety of the profession and are heavily protected by unions.  If you want to improve education go with charter schools and de-certify teacher unions.
Quote:

 

However, I think a lot of us can acknowledge that wealth distribution will be uneven. But if we consider that most people settle for average you'd still expect a somewhat more generous allotment of wealth among this bulk of people. Then again, maybe not :shrug:




No, I don't think you would expect that.  Consider this model for the rewards of real exceptionalism.  Athletes.  Amateurs (99.9%) get paid nothing.  Minor leaguers (0.09%) get paid shit.  Most major leaguers (0.009%) get paid pretty well but not insane and have short careers.  The 0.001% make huge amounts.  They are exceptional and not easily replaced.  I have probably given them too high a percentage, as well.  And allotment is a hideous concept.  Who does the allocations?  Me?  I want 20%.  Upfront.


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OfflineF0SS1L
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Re: The wealth gap [Re: memes]
    #13279733 - 10/02/10 01:27 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The graph does suck, but whatever you're doing you're reading it wrong. It goes as such

Lowest earning 1%-50%, controls 2.5% of the wealth
50-90%, controls 26%
90-99%, controls 37.7%
Top 1%, controls 33.8%


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That's me on the street with a violin under my chin. Playing with a grin, singing gibberish.

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Offlinelazyfingers
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Re: The wealth gap [Re: F0SS1L]
    #13279746 - 10/02/10 01:32 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The only thing that this graph shows is that rich people are too lazy to distribute their wealth, I find it funny that people are picking on the poor for being lazy and stupid, it's not like a poor person can just print money, or ask Daddy. Poor people have to compete with 3rd world workers who come here to take the unnecessary jobs we all pretend are important. There is a lack of philanthropy within the U.S. Right now democrats want to send a billion dollars to Haiti, when they are living in a concentration camp with isolated dying quarters. Nobody watches you die here, and everyone watches tv so they don't have to care.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: The wealth gap [Re: memes]
    #13279768 - 10/02/10 01:38 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Quote:

JT said:
it's basically the same info, just in a pie chart. not sure what you mean :shrug:



Quote:

learningtofly said:
whats wrong with it?




Where is the representation for the 2-49%?  Those numbers add to 100% and nearly half of the US population is unaccounted for in that graph.

So that's whats wrong with it.




"The bottom 50%" accounts for the 2-49%. You are reading the graph wrong.


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Invisiblememes
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Re: The wealth gap [Re: learningtofly]
    #13279782 - 10/02/10 01:43 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

you're right!

and i'm high!




good thing i'm not a latin teacher

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: The wealth gap [Re: memes]
    #13279793 - 10/02/10 01:46 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

vaginal discourse  :zombie2:  :zombie4:  :box:


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